Yes GM was interested in public transportation in the 50s

**noggin** · December-02-15, 11:41 AM

Great film put out by GMC in the 50s. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CElngLAjMaA There are some great old shots of Detroit in it.

**Cincinnati_Kid** · December-04-15, 04:28 PM

Kinda hard for me to believe that. I always heard the Big 3 wanted every citizen to own a car, instead of depending on public transportation. Must be why streetcars went away in 1956.

**Hermod** · December-04-15, 06:13 PM

At the time, GM owned Twin Coach and was trying to sell buses as well as cars.

The streetcar tracks were badly deteriorated and would require massive investment. I quoted a study here done by the DSR for the Jefferson line comparing rehabbing the streetcar line, going to electric trolley buses, or going to motor buses. In the analysis, the motor buses won out and this was an in-house government study.

**Gpwrangler** · December-04-15, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

At the time, GM owned Twin Coach and was trying to sell buses as well as cars.

The streetcar tracks were badly deteriorated and would require massive investment. I quoted a study here done by the DSR for the Jefferson line comparing rehabbing the streetcar line, going to electric trolley buses, or going to motor buses. In the analysis, the motor buses won out and this was an in-house government study.

That's because fixing roads or trackage is an industry built and funded by the same people who brought you the $800 toilet seat.

**JBMcB** · December-06-15, 01:06 PM

Everyone seems to forget that GM owned one of the largest manufacturers of diesel locomotive engines throughout most of the 1900's, as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro-Motive_Diesel

**DetroitRocks** · December-09-15, 06:21 PM

Very interesting!

**bust** · December-09-15, 06:53 PM

I don't have the hard facts in front of me [[please provide them if you do), but I don't think any American companies manufacture the trains [[whether heavy or light rail) and control systems we need for contemporary rail systems. Bombardier, in Quebec, is as close as we get. What a lost opportunity!

Imagine how if we had American companies in the business of manufacturing rail systems we'd also have much more money spent lobbying congress for investments in mass transit. Instead, our lobbyists -- and therefore our tax, budget, and regulatory structures -- are overwhelmingly in the service of cars.

**JBMcB** · December-09-15, 08:14 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_Rail_Services
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GE_Transportation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...ipment_Company
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harsco

**Hermod** · December-09-15, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by bust

I don't have the hard facts in front of me [[please provide them if you do), but I don't think any American companies manufacture the trains [[whether heavy or light rail) and control systems we need for contemporary rail systems. Bombardier, in Quebec, is as close as we get. What a lost opportunity!

Imagine how if we had American companies in the business of manufacturing rail systems we'd also have much more money spent lobbying congress for investments in mass transit. Instead, our lobbyists -- and therefore our tax, budget, and regulatory structures -- are overwhelmingly in the service of cars.

The railroads of the US made quite a bit of money during WWII as both freight and passenger business boomed. Post WWII, they wanted to capitalize on this and invested in huge fleets of passenger equipment made by Budd and Pullman Standard. Those were all of the colorful streamlined trains of the late 40s and 50s. Unfortunately, the long haul business travel went to the airlines and the short haul travel went to passenger cars and rail passenger service began to steadily shrink from 1954 to AMTRAK in 1971. As a result, there was a massive surplus of passenger equipment and orders to passenger rail manufacturers stopped. The factories have either been torn down or diverted to other use and the skilled workers retired or died. IF there was a steady revenue stream for orders for passenger equipment, someone in the US would go back into that business.

**bust** · December-09-15, 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by JBMcB

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_Rail_Services
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GE_Transportation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...ipment_Company
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harsco

Thanks!

I did a cursory investigation, starting from the links you provided. It seems these companies focus on long haul diesel engines, though Harsco says they do urban systems too. Do you happen to know if any of these, or what other U.S. companies, supply subway / light rail / streetcars for urban mass transit systems in the U.S.?

Bombardier makes the subway cars used in NY.
It looks like Brookville, based in PA, is making the streetcars for Detroit:

http://www.brookvillecorp.com/M1-RAI...-Corporate.asp

I'd love to see more U.S. companies participate in this area, and for our transit authorities to support them by awarding them contracts. ...Provided they offer the right product for the right price, of course!

This is obviously not my area of specialty!

**JBMcB** · December-10-15, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by bust

I'd love to see more U.S. companies participate in this area, and for our transit authorities to support them by awarding them contracts. ...Provided they offer the right product for the right price, of course!

I'm not exactly sure of the numbers, but I believe Bombardier is the largest manufacturers of light rail cars in the world. The reasoning is pretty straightforward, there is much more demand for light rail in Europe than in the US [[Bombardier Transportation is based in Germany) and the opposite is true for heavy rail.

I don't see light rail manufacturing taking off in the US. It's an extremely niche, vertical market, and most of the demand is already filled by the handful of manufacturers in the US, and the huge manufacturers in Europe. Even if light rail took off in the US and you had multiple new rollouts approved every year, you're only looking at, maybe, a few dozen extra engines needing to be produced.

**bust** · December-10-15, 02:29 PM

I have little knowledge about the economics of this business, but I agree the challenges of forming a company to enter it look tough. An enormous investment would be required to build, stock, and staff the factories. There'd be stiff competition from the existing companies that already have that together, and have experience and established relationships besides. You'd be dependent on government contracts and fickle politics that can change drastically in an election. And in most parts of the country, the base that reliably supports mass transit is small and carries little sway.

But I do expect our mass transit systems will need to considerably improve and expand for our country to remain competitive, and our cities healthy. I hold that prediction true not just for here, but for other countries too. There are lots of export opportunities further afield, and those will grow. Just look how Brazil has been investing heavily in their transit infrastructure. It's incredible. And the popular criticism there is they have not invested enough:

http://www.terra.com.br/noticias/inf...ovas-estacoes/

Meanwhile, according to wikipedia, New York has plans to purchase 1408 new subway cars by the end of the decade. 300 will be supplied by Bombardier. Contracts for the remaining 1108 have not yet been awarded. Scroll down to the "Future Fleet" section:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Yo..._rolling_stock

Other cities, like Seattle, are investing heavily in transit expansion too.

Quite a challenge to break into, but there is definitely business to be had. I'd love to see more of it go to American companies.