The Bottom Falls Out of the Capitalist System

[Gannon]

This is how it happens.


Sure, it is Dr. Doolittle today...but as the crisis deepens it will include everyone.



We will ALL be swamped with penalties and interest...usury-style...compliments of our local, county, state, and national governments.


It is coming UNDONE, folks, hang on for a wild-ass ride these next few years.

[Gannon]

“If you’ve got a state government that is not willing to work with small businesses, how will they get their money?” he said. “If I don’t reopen, they will not get a dime.”

This is the crux of the matter. The system is designed to only function during times of economic GROWTH, the basic false assumption of capitalism that has turned into a weapon against humanity now that it is fueled by multi-national corporations.


And yes, corporations are all evil...by design they are anti-human...shielding their officers and employees from liability against poor decisions and bad actions!

We need to return to the early 1900's definition of incorporation, TEMPORARY organizations authorized by each state to form ONLY for the duration of the project at hand too large for any one company or person to accomplish.



This turned into a sick form of 'fully-justified' world domination, given the tendencies of mere human behavior...especially in committee.

[oladub]

We will ALL be swamped with penalties and interest...usury-style...compliments of our local, county, state, and national governments.

It is coming UNDONE, folks, hang on for a wild-ass ride these next few years.

Its a government version of the Easter island die off. Expect the growth of kleptocracy; camera generated tickets, tickets for one mile over, confiscation of real estate, vehicles, and cash, disproportionate of the crime, for the most minor of offenses.

California is usually ahead of the pack. It is already bankrupt so it is paying off its vendors with IOU's. Banks will not accept the IOU's. The vendors have their own bills to pay including taxes on the IOU's which California counts as income.

"Small businesses that received $682 million in IOUs from the state say California expects them to pay taxes on the worthless scraps of paper, but refuses to accept its own IOUs to pay debts or taxes. The vendors' federal class action claims the state is trying to balance its budget on their backs."
http://www.courthousenews.com/2009/0...s_Own_IOUs.htm

"California, here we come."

[lilpup]

I'm surprised the pet shop assets haven't been seized for taxes. Perhaps Rhode Island doesn't have that level of enforcement capability. A mere cease and desist is pretty inadequate if they intend to realize any gain toward a tax bill. Asset seizure is what happens here when a business gets far enough behind in taxes [[e.g. Au Bon Pain just recently).

The California situation is just plain wrong. By not accepting their own scrip they're admitting it's worthless.

[Papasito]

The Bottom Falls Out of the Capitalist System

Take away tarriffs and have free trade with countries that pay their people pennies, putting Americans that make a decent wage into direct competition with them, and expect NOT to collapse?
The Capitalist system made America the richest nation on the planet. It's demise has been forced by those who oppose and exploit it. Now it is doomed because of the debt that has been accumulated by irresponsible Democrats AND Republicans. Our nation is bankrupt. To blame it on Capitalism is narrow minded and short sighted. Capitalism is just one small cog in the wheel that has brought America to her knees.

The downfall of our economic system has mostly Government to blame.
It's that the system that went wrong, it's those who used and abused it, manipulated it, and destroyed it. The greedy, the government, and our nation's enemies, both within and without.

You will never get real freedom and recognition between black and white people in this country without destroying the country, without destroying the present political system, without destroying the present economic system, without rewriting the entire constitution. It will be a complete destruction of everything that America supposedly stands for.

–Malcolm X
http://itooktheredpill.wordpress.com...-to-its-knees/

Only Malcolm X’s autobiography seemed to offer something different. His repeated acts of self-creation spoke to me. The blunt poetry of his words. His unadorned insistence on respect. He promised a new and uncompromising order, martial in its discipline.

–Barack Hussein Obama

[rb336]

The downfall of our economic system has mostly Government to blame. It's that the system that went wrong, it's those who used and abused it, manipulated it, and destroyed it. The greedy, the government, and our nation's enemies, both within and without.

and that, ladies and gents, is the big money people demanding a bigger and bigger slice of the pie, until only crumbs are left. Then they decided they wanted most of the crumbs, too

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Take away tarriffs and have free trade with countries that pay their people pennies, putting Americans that make a decent wage into direct competition with them, and expect NOT to collapse?"

Welcome to the correct side of the argument, watch for flying shoes.

[TKshreve]

Take away tarriffs and have free trade with countries that pay their people pennies, putting Americans that make a decent wage into direct competition with them, and expect NOT to collapse?
The Capitalist system made America the richest nation on the planet. It's demise has been forced by those who oppose and exploit it. Now it is doomed because of the debt that has been accumulated by irresponsible Democrats AND Republicans. Our nation is bankrupt. To blame it on Capitalism is narrow minded and short sighted. Capitalism is just one small cog in the wheel that has brought America to her knees.

The downfall of our economic system has mostly Government to blame.
It's that the system that went wrong, it's those who used and abused it, manipulated it, and destroyed it. The greedy, the government, and our nation's enemies, both within and without.

It seems that our country has a harder time identifying with this concept than ever before. Most deflectors have either pegged their opposing political party, or only have part of the equation figured out. Here it is:

Greed + Corruption = Treason.

Hang em high.

[bailey]

Quote: "Take away tarriffs and have free trade with countries that pay their people pennies, putting Americans that make a decent wage into direct competition with them, and expect NOT to collapse?"

Welcome to the correct side of the argument, watch for flying shoes.

Um... isn't the removal of tariffs and allowing the market to determine price and wages just unfettered Capitalism? Aren't tariffs and wage floors a government intrusion into the infallible workings of the invisible hand? If someone can do the exact same job for pennies elsewhere, isn't that person to be rewarded by the market?

Or is that only if it's American's demanding there be no tariffs the goods it produces and when Americans set the market rate.?

[lilpup]

Unless Americans look out for all of America's well-being America will not be setting the standard for anything. That's the point being made. Only certain interests in the US bellow such things as "free market" and "unfettered capitalism" and when those interests achieve power the nation goes to hell because no other developed, emerging, or developing nation adheres to the unrealistic notions of "free market" and "unfettered capitalism."

[vetalalumni]

Unless Americans look out for all of America's well-being America will not be setting the standard for anything. That's the point being made. Only certain interests in the US bellow such things as "free market" and "unfettered capitalism" and when those interests achieve power ...

Good point. Mercenary capitalism ultimately fails after showing off spectacularly for a period. Extreme highs enjoyed by the few, followed by extreme lows suffered by all.

[3WC]

Don't blame this mess on Capitalism. We haven't had true Capitalism in this country for countless years, We live, and have lived for a long time, in a government managed economy, and it's going to be totally Socialist in the not too distant future.

The plight of the pet store owner is supposed to be a tear jerker. However, based on the numbers in the article, the poor guy can never pay off the tax liens. It will only get worse. He didn't pay his taxes. Now, his neighbors have to make up for it. Frankly, hope springs eternal fior those kinds of people, who should have bitten the bullet a long time ago, The tax collector is merely putting him out of his misery.

[Lorax]

This is a prime example of the failure of the larger economic structure: big corporations and banks gambling with investor's money without government regulations or accountability. Thank you Bush Crime Family.

This poor guy is the small business operator who has been decimated by the decisions of a financial structure above and out of his control, that decided short term gambling profits was worth the risk of destroying the economy for the rest of us. Sure, he should have had better accounting advice, and paid his sales taxes, or have started liquidation of his failing business earlier, but the results of not doing so are certainly unfair and backward, while the state's methods in affecting resolution are completely unreasonable.

Privatizing profits while socializing losses has been the MO of the Rethuglican corporate masters for decades now, and when the feeding frenzy can't be controlled anymore, we have a collapse.

They are always the first at the trough of corporate welfare, and when their bad decision making leads us to insolvency, we have events like the Silverado Savings & Loan scandal involving another of the Bush Crime Family, brother Neal Bush.

When will enough be enough for most people? When our cheap food policy gets destroyed in favor of squeezing the last drop of profit out of that as well. When people can't feed themselves or their families, then look out. Corporate farming will be next to seize their pound of flesh.

[Lorax]

Don't blame this mess on Capitalism. We haven't had true Capitalism in this country for countless years, We live, and have lived for a long time, in a government managed economy, and it's going to be totally Socialist in the not too distant future.

The plight of the pet store owner is supposed to be a tear jerker. However, based on the numbers in the article, the poor guy can never pay off the tax liens. It will only get worse. He didn't pay his taxes. Now, his neighbors have to make up for it. Frankly, hope springs eternal fior those kinds of people, who should have bitten the bullet a long time ago, The tax collector is merely putting him out of his misery.

You couldn't be further from the truth. The Walmart pet department, Petsmart, PETCO, put him out of business- that combined with an economy gambled away by Wall Street junkies determined to suck the marrow out of our dried out bones.

And I would beg to differ on the point of not having been a capitalist society for years. If anything we've had Ubercapitalism since Reagan, left unchecked completely after Clinton left office, and find ourselves in the state we're in now as a result.

The poor pet store guy's neighbors first paid Walmart for the tax breaks, utility lines, land acquisition, and more, and now will pay again for the loss in taxes from the Mom & Pop pet store. Local governments will bend over backwards to help corporations, and do nothing to help keep the thousands of smaller local businesses intact.

The dictionary definition of fascism: The blending of corporate and government interests with corporations having the upper hand.

[Gannon]

Bravo, Lorax.

Bravo.

[Jimaz]

TAKING CARE OF BUSINESS -- Citizenship and the Charter of Incorporation by Richard L. Grossman and Frank T. Adams

Preface

Corporations cause harm every day. Why do their harms go unchecked? How can they dictate what we produce, how we work, what we eat, drink and breathe? How did a self-governing people let this come to pass?

Corporations were not supposed to reign in the United States.

When we look at the history of our states, we learn that citizens intentionally defined corporations through charters -- the certificates of incorporation.

In exchange for the charter, a corporation was obligated to obey all laws, to serve the common good, and to cause no harm. Early state legislators wrote charter laws and actual charters to limit corporate authority, and to ensure that when a corporation caused harm, they could revoke its charter.

During the late 19th century, corporations subverted state governments, taking our power to put charters of incorporation to the uses originally intended.

Corporations may have taken our political power but they have not taken our Constitutional sovereignty. Citizens are guaranteed sovereign authority over government officeholders. Every state still has legal authority to grant and to revoke corporate charters. Corporations, large or small, still must obey all laws, serve the common good, and cause no harm.

To exercise our sovereign authority over corporations, we must take back our political authority over our state governments.

[vetalalumni]

Don't blame this mess on Capitalism. We haven't had true Capitalism in this country for countless years...

Don't assume. Pure capitalism was never asserted. The mercenary qualifier is an applicable term applied to imperfect execution of the capitalism concept. Next.

[ccbatson]

Don't be simpletons and miss the glaring error in this theory. Everything being blamed ultimately boils down to how, in our mixed economy, the socialist tendencies [[ie government intrusion) spoils the market.

This was precisely predicted by proponents of a more pure capitalist system as long as 60 years ago, if not longer. See Ayn Rand's book "Capitalism, the Unknown Ideal"

[Lorax]

Don't be simpletons and miss the glaring error in this theory. Everything being blamed ultimately boils down to how, in our mixed economy, the socialist tendencies [[ie government intrusion) spoils the market.

This was precisely predicted by proponents of a more pure capitalist system as long as 60 years ago, if not longer. See Ayn Rand's book "Capitalism, the Unknown Ideal"

There is nothing "unknown" about the "capitalist ideal" you're living through it now, buddy.

Government takes, or should take precedent over any influence of corporations. Revoking charters would be a good start. You'd see the fascists shaping up, or shipping out.

[ccbatson]

Lorax, this one is a favor to you. You have no clue what you are talking about and are making yourself look foolish by pretending to.

Read that book, or any number of books on capitalism [[even a basic level textbook), apply critical thinking skills, then enter the fray.

I am not saying this as an attack on you, I am really offering advise that you either become educated on the subject, or refrain from commenting.

It is partly selfish for me to do this because, when my opponents in a debate are so painfully weak, it diminishes my victory over them.

[Lorax]

Lorax, this one is a favor to you. You have no clue what you are talking about and are making yourself look foolish by pretending to.

Read that book, or any number of books on capitalism [[even a basic level textbook), apply critical thinking skills, then enter the fray.

I am not saying this as an attack on you, I am really offering advise that you either become educated on the subject, or refrain from commenting.

It is partly selfish for me to do this because, when my opponents in a debate are so painfully weak, it diminishes my victory over them.

Did you practice that while standing on your highchair, looking in the mirror?

Give it a rest.

What "premise" exactly do you question? Than any crimes were committed by the Tushies? If so, then you are truly delusional.

Even if some of them have only been investigated, and not prosecuted, doesn't mean they didn't happen. The facts and proof is all in black and white. It's a matter for our Justice Department to go ahead with special prosecutors and get to the indictment, then conviction stage. The investigations have largely been done on all of the Bush Crime Family's scandals.

It is an attack on my comprehension, which is laughable, since everything I have said on this and related subjects I was saying even before the events happened. Now that they have come to pass, my arguments have been validated.

There is nothing I have said on this forum that is materially untrue, and not substantiated by fact. I have posted numerous examples over time, while you and yours refuse to accept it. Not much I can do about that.

Ignorance of the issues and blindness to the facts are individual choices.

[ccbatson]

That capitalism is bad, or greed, or selfishness...weren't you even paying to the very conversation that you were trying [[but failing) to participate in?

[rb336]

There is nothing "unknown" about the "capitalist ideal" you're living through it now, buddy.

Government takes, or should take precedent over any influence of corporations. Revoking charters would be a good start. You'd see the fascists shaping up, or shipping out.

no, people should come before corporations, labor before capital. Yes, the govt should revoke the charters of bad actors, and there should be changes to RICO so that the govt can seize the assets of corporate directors that run companies that violate law

[rb336]

ah, the book with the Alan Greespan chapter that I caught you out on in the old forum.

I could go page to page, [[like I did before till you mysteriously stopped posting) but the basic problem with Rand [[other than her absolute lack of skill as a writer) is her egoism, her inserting her beliefs [[unfounded, merely stated emphatically) into something she claims is "objective" - yet offering no objective support to justify those beliefs. there is some rationality in her work, but it is buried beneath mountains of dross and so childish it isn't worth the smelting process

[Lorax]

Rb, I don't know what side you think I'm on, but it seems we have agreement.

When I mention 'government' taking precedent, consider that a small 'g' government, meaning the people. We are in agreement.

Corporations should be seized and forced into bankruptcy for violating the public trust, no arguments from me. These standards are not enforced, however, except in the case of Lehman Brothers, which the right still feels jilted by, since I hear all sorts of carping from them on how Lehman was allowed to fail, while the others were bailed out.

I am also in agreement on Rand. There is little this pot smoker wrote that holds water as far as I'm concerned, nothing against pot smokers, and I mean that!

As far as my "mysterious disappearance" is concerned, I think I was clear in saying I took a couple of weeks off the grid, so to speak. Needed to get away from dealing with all I have to deal with these days, since the Reich has made my business life a rollercoaster as of late.