Grand Prix on Belle Isle?

[EastsideAl]

I think a lot of this is another case of non-Detroiters trying to "save" something that Detroiters actually use [[a lot, in the case of Belle Isle). I am reminded of someone I met in Brimingham at a party years ago who was surprised to hear me say that I rode my bike on Belle Isle most weekends. He said "Belle Isle? But no one goes there anymore". To which I responded "You mean no one YOU know goes there anymore".

Belle Isle has always been heavily used during the summer, especially on weekends, and will remain so whether or not there's a Grand Prix there. For the people who go there regularly, to use it for its intended purpose as a park, the GP is mostly nothing but a nearly 3 month long pain in the ass.

[Richard]

I could have walked or biked there if I wanted. I think you miss the point though, the point is that the park is so popular for people using it, get this, AS A PARK, that they had to shut down access. You are still trying to justify limiting access to the most popular parts of the park for over two months for a three day race as if the park is desperate for the attention. It is not.

I am not trying to justify anything.

As a state park is it not open to all residents of the state who wish to visit regardless,of weather they agree with events held there or not?

Yes or no

The deal was made when the city had control of the park.

Yes or no

I and others fully understood what the park ment to the city,were you one of the ones that said to shut up and sit down it was better off in the hands of the state because the city could not afford it,at that time?

What I am saying and not trying to be an ass is that the city residents choose to give up control of the park and in doing so your voice about what happens there is now divided within the entire state.

So you need to bring up your dissatisfaction up in front of the state and ask them to look for alternatives.

Outside of that you do benefit from the residuals and it is hardly an income that you can just give up Willy nilly.

So you have two options, the island or downtown streets.

Or lose it completely.

You may not realize it but during the bankruptcy the only way the city could raise funds was through bonds.

The city's credit was in the dumps so the only way they could sell the bonds was to guarantee payment was 1st option on taxpayer revenue.

That means before anybody else in the city gets paid the bond holders do,that note is due in a few years.

You have removed an entire present and future tax base from Del Rey,Now you want to remove another revenue generating source from the city.

Can you think of any other way to remove every single way the city has as options of generating revenue in order to fill the tax coffers,so you are not inconvenienced?

What do you think is going to happen if the funds are not there when it comes time to pay the piper.

Read the history of the port and thier expirence and why thier hands are locked and you will get a taste of what happens when there are no more options.

Look at the big picture and learn from the past mistakes and stop putting yourself in positions of no choice,the city is better then that.

[Towne Cluber]

I think a lot of this is another case of non-Detroiters trying to "save" something that Detroiters actually use [[a lot, in the case of Belle Isle). I am reminded of someone I met in Brimingham at a party years ago who was surprised to hear me say that I rode my bike on Belle Isle most weekends. He said "Belle Isle? But no one goes there anymore". To which I responded "You mean no one YOU know goes there anymore".

Belle Isle has always been heavily used during the summer, especially on weekends, and will remain so whether or not there's a Grand Prix there. For the people who go there regularly, to use it for its intended purpose as a park, the GP is mostly nothing but a nearly 3 month long pain in the ass.

That is an interesting take on the matter. From what I've seen of the public/media interviews/rallies/comments against the Grand Prix, almost everyone involved was either a non-Detroiter or non-Black Detroiter. And from the Black Detroiters that I know and/or have heard comment about the Grand Prix, almost everyone likes it or it didn't bother them one way or the other...

As to patronizing the island, during its decline, middle class Black Detroiters that I know/heard comment about it were also no longer going there. It had become known as having more of a young as well as "street" [[lawless) element to it. Unfortunately, Greektown now has that type of reputation.

[O3H]

Well the state cops put a bit of law and order onto the island
and a certain element was gently forced out of the park.

So with it being a STATE park, the [[living in Detroit) thing doesn't
really apply anymore, to any argument regarding being able to use it !

From the media/print/internet I've read, a large amount ,
are not all that thrilled about the Grand Prix tying up the island .
That can be easily researched , verified, and discerned.
No conjecture involved.

[southen]

I am not trying to justify anything.

As a state park is it not open to all residents of the state who wish to visit regardless,of weather they agree with events held there or not?

Yes or no

The deal was made when the city had control of the park.

Yes or no

I and others fully understood what the park ment to the city,were you one of the ones that said to shut up and sit down it was better off in the hands of the state because the city could not afford it,at that time?

What I am saying and not trying to be an ass is that the city residents choose to give up control of the park and in doing so your voice about what happens there is now divided within the entire state.

So you need to bring up your dissatisfaction up in front of the state and ask them to look for alternatives.

Outside of that you do benefit from the residuals and it is hardly an income that you can just give up Willy nilly.

So you have two options, the island or downtown streets.

Or lose it completely.

You may not realize it but during the bankruptcy the only way the city could raise funds was through bonds.

The city's credit was in the dumps so the only way they could sell the bonds was to guarantee payment was 1st option on taxpayer revenue.

That means before anybody else in the city gets paid the bond holders do,that note is due in a few years.

You have removed an entire present and future tax base from Del Rey,Now you want to remove another revenue generating source from the city.

Can you think of any other way to remove every single way the city has as options of generating revenue in order to fill the tax coffers,so you are not inconvenienced?

What do you think is going to happen if the funds are not there when it comes time to pay the piper.

Read the history of the port and thier expirence and why thier hands are locked and you will get a taste of what happens when there are no more options.

Look at the big picture and learn from the past mistakes and stop putting yourself in positions of no choice,the city is better then that.

One, any person can walk, bike, or take a bus to the island without paying a fee.

Two, I’m still waiting for the hard facts of the benefits of this race. In defense of the benefits the most current data that YOU could come up with was from a decade ago and simply estimates.

Three. state oversight and citizen opinion are not mutually exclusive. The state has asked for input and there are several citizen run organizations that have sway over things.

I am sticking to the issue at hand in this conversation so I may not reply to your ramblings regarding Del Ray.

[Towne Cluber]

Well the state cops put a bit of law and order onto the island
and a certain element was gently forced out of the park.

So with it being a STATE park, the [[living in Detroit) thing doesn't
really apply anymore, to any argument regarding being able to use it !

From the media/print/internet I've read, a large amount ,
are not all that thrilled about the Grand Prix tying up the island .
That can be easily researched , verified, and discerned.
No conjecture involved.

OH3, unlike most other detractors, I give you credit for being somewhat honest that this latest fake controversy isn’t really about the plight of Detroiters, Black people, low income, etc. Although your viewpoint is outside of the mainstream, there is something refreshing about you not being like others whom pretend that their cause is about the greater good rather than what it really is — trying to impose their own will for whatever personal reasons [[anti-corporate, anti-car, anti-sports, “gentrification”, etc).

Given that, I am still somewhat surprised [[or maybe I’m not and giving you too much credit) that you’re actually trying to claim that more people are against the Grand Prix on Belle Isle than are in favor of it.

You should also note that the State manages the park, but the City still owns it—so discussion of the wishes of City residents is fair.

[Honky Tonk]

OH3, unlike most other detractors, I give you credit for being somewhat honest that this latest fake controversy isn’t really about the plight of Detroiters, Black people, low income, etc. Although your viewpoint is outside of the mainstream, there is something refreshing about you not being like others whom pretend that their cause is about the greater good rather than what it really is — trying to impose their own will for whatever personal reasons [[anti-corporate, anti-car, anti-sports, “gentrification”, etc).

Given that, I am still somewhat surprised [[or maybe I’m not and giving you too much credit) that you’re actually trying to claim that more people are against the Grand Prix on Belle Isle than are in favor of it.

You should also note that the State manages the park, but the City still owns it—so discussion of the wishes of City residents is fair.

Trying to silence the voice of others is exactly like imposing your will.

[Towne Cluber]

Trying to silence the voice of others is exactly like imposing your will.

So what is making up stories to advance a personal agenda? “They’re trying to steal our jewels”...“My elderly parents were detoured and found themselves on closed streets”...”The artificial turf smells”...and on and on...

[Honky Tonk]

So what is making up stories to advance a personal agenda? “They’re trying to steal our jewels”...“My elderly parents were detoured and found themselves on closed streets”...”The artificial turf smells”...and on and on...

I don't know where you're pulling these "reasons" from, but none of those are what this is all about. First and foremost, Belle Isle is a natural migratory bird stop and the State and the Grand Pricks are disrupting that process. Second, no mater what timeline they tell you, they start work mid-March, and there is limited access to the Western tip of the island. It is either off limits or limited access for most of the setup, and limited or NO access until July. I don't consider driving around a coned road looking @ GM barriers, fences, tent city, and heavy equipment moving about "enjoying access to Belle Isle". Third, the area around Belle Isle is a residential area. Thousands of people live there. The setup, take down, traffic, and of course, the race itself, is loud and disruptive to the people that live in that neighborhood. Residents protested, and won, not having a racetrack around the old State Fair area when Penske first wanted to put it there. That's why Penske and Kilpatrick shoved the Belle Isle Grand Pricks through, so it wouldn't happen again. Ask yourself this, if everyone is so for the Grand Pricks being on Belle Isle, why did the State, @ the last minute, change meeting dates from a Saturday when most people could attend, to a Friday, during working hours, when a lot of people couldn't? Yeah, I know, "legally" it says 48 hours, morally, it's a wrong, childish, tactic. I may not know how artificial turf smells, but I do know bullshit when I smell it.

[Towne Cluber]

I don't know where you're pulling these "reasons" from, but none of those are what this is all about. First and foremost, Belle Isle is a natural migratory bird stop and the State and the Grand Pricks are disrupting that process. Second, no mater what timeline they tell you, they start work mid-March, and there is limited access to the Western tip of the island. It is either off limits or limited access for most of the setup, and limited or NO access until July. I don't consider driving around a coned road looking @ GM barriers, fences, tent city, and heavy equipment moving about "enjoying access to Belle Isle". Third, the area around Belle Isle is a residential area. Thousands of people live there. The setup, take down, traffic, and of course, the race itself, is loud and disruptive to the people that live in that neighborhood. Residents protested, and won, not having a racetrack around the old State Fair area when Penske first wanted to put it there. That's why Penske and Kilpatrick shoved the Belle Isle Grand Pricks through, so it wouldn't happen again. Ask yourself this, if everyone is so for the Grand Pricks being on Belle Isle, why did the State, @ the last minute, change meeting dates from a Saturday when most people could attend, to a Friday, during working hours, when a lot of people couldn't? Yeah, I know, "legally" it says 48 hours, morally, it's a wrong, childish, tactic. I may not know how artificial turf smells, but I do know bullshit when I smell it.

1. It's prix not pricks.

2. You certainly have the right to be against something, but you don't have the right to make up things about it. That would be a morally wrong, childish, and bullshit tactic. My examples of bogus claims about this [[as well as other) matters is certainly relevant. By the way, artificial turf doesn't smell.

3. Plenty of loud things are near residential areas. Roads/freeways, hospitals, fire station, stadiums, airports to name a few. The cruising that takes place on Jefferson [[or the Woodward Dream Cruise) is certainly traffic--as well as loud, disruptive, and more frequent, yet those residents have somehow managed to deal with it. Same with the Hydroplane races on the river. Or will trying to ban that be the next fake controversy?

4. The Grand Prix has been held on Belle Isle since 1992. Coleman Young was the mayor at that time.

5. Others, not Penske, proposed the State Fairgrounds as an alternative site. In fact, Penske has stated that it would not be a big enough area.

6. Neither people nor cars should be allowed on Belle Isle if it's that disruptive to the migratory bird process. Do you not think that 3,500 cars and a packed Belle Isle on summer nights causes the same type of harm?

7. How do you deal with living in a city [[with its closed/detoured roads/sidewalks for repairs, construction, accidents, events) if you can't handle a part of Belle Isle being limited or closed?

[Bham1982]

The cruising that takes place on Jefferson [[or the Woodward Dream Cruise) is certainly traffic--as well as loud, disruptive, and more frequent, yet those residents have somehow managed to deal with it.

Speak for yourself. As someone who lives just off Woodward, I would like nothing better than banishing the Dream Cruise to North Dakota.

Worst month of the year, by far, and all the neighbors hate it. Most of us just clear out and flee on the official week. I would happily pay good money to move this garbage somewhere else.

[Towne Cluber]

Speak for yourself. As someone who lives just off Woodward, I would like nothing better than banishing the Dream Cruise to North Dakota.

Worst month of the year, by far, and all the neighbors hate it. Most of us just clear out and flee on the official week. I would happily pay good money to move this garbage somewhere else.

Do you like anything or anyone...much less attend any kind of events for fun?

[Honky Tonk]

1. It's prix not pricks.

2. You certainly have the right to be against something, but you don't have the right to make up things about it. That would be a morally wrong, childish, and bullshit tactic. My examples of bogus claims about this [[as well as other) matters is certainly relevant. By the way, artificial turf doesn't smell.

3. Plenty of loud things are near residential areas. Roads/freeways, hospitals, fire station, stadiums, airports to name a few. The cruising that takes place on Jefferson [[or the Woodward Dream Cruise) is certainly traffic--as well as loud, disruptive, and more frequent, yet those residents have somehow managed to deal with it. Same with the Hydroplane races on the river. Or will trying to ban that be the next fake controversy?

4. The Grand Prix has been held on Belle Isle since 1992. Coleman Young was the mayor at that time.

5. Others, not Penske, proposed the State Fairgrounds as an alternative site. In fact, Penske has stated that it would not be a big enough area.

6. Neither people nor cars should be allowed on Belle Isle if it's that disruptive to the migratory bird process. Do you not think that 3,500 cars and a packed Belle Isle on summer nights causes the same type of harm?

7. How do you deal with living in a city [[with its closed/detoured roads/sidewalks for repairs, construction, accidents, events) if you can't handle a part of Belle Isle being limited or closed?

2.) Please tell me exactly what I "made up" about it? I already told you I don't know what artificial turf smells like. I haven't stuck my nose in it.

3.) Get serious here. Hospitals are loud? Stadiums, [[last I checked they were 4 miles away) can be heard on Belle Isle? Airports, like Metro? The Woodward Dream Cruise? Have you heard the Hydroplane races? No, because they're turbine, and they don't quarantine off the island for 5 months. Motorcycles and cars with loud exhausts were heavily ticketed last month because of the noise they created. The only thing "fake" seem to be your examples.

4.) No it hasn't. It was there for a few years, 3 I believe, then it went away. It was brought back in the Kilpatrick era because Penske was going to make Detroit Great again.

5.) Were residents impacted allowed to voice opinions @ those meetings, or were they conveniently rescheduled?

6.) Are the [[supposedly) 3,500 [[by the way, where did you find that #?) cars there day-in day-out for 5 months straight?
Maybe attend a couple of Audubon meetings?

7.) This explains a lot. You apparently can't tell the difference between a road closure and a public park closure.

1.) It is pricks.

[dtowncitylover]

Do you like anything or anyone...much less attend any kind of events for fun?

To Bham's credit, the Dream Cruise is as long as the set up/tear down for the Grand Prix.

[dtowncitylover]

4.) No it hasn't. It was there for a few years, 3 I believe, then it went away. It was brought back in the Kilpatrick era because Penske was going to make Detroit Great again.

Fact check: It was there 1992-2001, 2007-2008, and since 2011. In fact, it was downtown for only 3 years.

[swingline]

Maybe I missed it but has there been an explanation from race organizers as to why the "load in/load out" of the Detroit race takes at least twice as long as the Toronto and St Petersburg events? https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits...-penske-claims I'm not opposed to the race, but what exactly takes so long? Those other races have slightly shorter courses but length of the course isn't the sole factor affecting the time involved. In St. Petersburg they run on the downtown streets and limit construction to nighttime hours. That would seem to be more complicated and take more time than it would to set up in an uncongested park setting.

[Towne Cluber]

HT, surely you aren't that dense...

1. Yes, people that live near hospitals deal with the noise of sirens from ambulances!

2. I'm talking about lots of residential areas in general are located near loud things, not just along Jefferson.

3. I forgot to include people that live near railroad tracks also dealing with noise.

4. Please look up the history of the race before you start making inaccurate claims about when it started on BI.

5. 3,500 is the parking capacity of the island. Next time, please look up information for yourself before you make claims to the contrary about it. And yes, a lot of cars pass through the island year-round.

6. Maybe you should tell people [[to their face, not me though) that depend on events [[such as the Grand Prix) for their livelihood that they should instead attend an Audubon Society meeting.

7. Indeed, having to make up stuff explains a lot about the weakness of your argument.

[O3H]

NOT everyone near Detroit is a gearhead, car aficionado, grease monkey,
UAW worker, tied to an automotive supplier, or a racing fan.

Yes, that amounts to a whole lot of people who don't care for the Pricks !
[[pun fully intended)

[Richard]

And I am sure not everybody is into football or baseball,something for everybody but here is our list of things we do not like,so if you like them this city is not for you.

[Honky Tonk]

HT, surely you aren't that dense...

1. Yes, people that live near hospitals deal with the noise of sirens from ambulances!

2. I'm talking about lots of residential areas in general are located near loud things, not just along Jefferson.

3. I forgot to include people that live near railroad tracks also dealing with noise.

4. Please look up the history of the race before you start making inaccurate claims about when it started on BI.

5. 3,500 is the parking capacity of the island. Next time, please look up information for yourself before you make claims to the contrary about it. And yes, a lot of cars pass through the island year-round.

6. Maybe you should tell people [[to their face, not me though) that depend on events [[such as the Grand Prix) for their livelihood that they should instead attend an Audubon Society meeting.

7. Indeed, having to make up stuff explains a lot about the weakness of your argument.

1.) Hospitals are being built on Belle Isle?!?!

2.) So you're argument has taken a different turn, away from Belle Isle?

3.) Railroads are now going to be running on Belle Isle? Is the island going to be closed off for that too? Is more concrete going to be poured? How will drivng over the tracks effect the Grand Pricks?

4.) Is said it was there in 72 for 3 years.

5.) You said "Do you not think that 3,500 cars and a packed Belle Isle on summer nights" I couldn't find that.

6.) Been there, done that. If your livelihood depends on closing off public access to a public place, and destroying a natural habitat in the process, perhaps you're in the wrong line of work?

7.) As does yours.

I'm not dense @ all.

[Honky Tonk]

And I am sure not everybody is into football or baseball,something for everybody but here is our list of things we do not like,so if you like them this city is not for you.

Say what? s'plain Lucy...

[Towne Cluber]

1.) Hospitals are being built on Belle Isle?!?!

2.) So you're argument has taken a different turn, away from Belle Isle?

3.) Railroads are now going to be running on Belle Isle? Is the island going to be closed off for that too? Is more concrete going to be poured? How will drivng over the tracks effect the Grand Pricks?

4.) Is said it was there in 72 for 3 years.

5.) You said "Do you not think that 3,500 cars and a packed Belle Isle on summer nights" I couldn't find that.

6.) Been there, done that. If your livelihood depends on closing off public access to a public place, and destroying a natural habitat in the process, perhaps you're in the wrong line of work?

7.) As does yours.

I'm not dense @ all.

HT, so when all else fails, now you’re just going to play dumb? That’s absolutely brutal. Why is it that the detractors of the BI Grand Prix/PAL Stadium/Cobo Regionalization/etc have to resort to dishonesty to make their case?

[O3H]

I'll help those that can't help themselves [[i.e. too dumb to use Google)

# of Parking Spaces - Shut Park to Vehicles - Time to Set-Up/TearDown

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...say/651354002/

[Honky Tonk]

HT, so when all else fails, now you’re just going to play dumb? That’s absolutely brutal. Why is it that the detractors of the BI Grand Prix/PAL Stadium/Cobo Regionalization/etc have to resort to dishonesty to make their case?

I guess it's better to play then to be. Why is it when someone doesn't have a point to make, they start throwing irrelevant items into the mix hoping to hit one?

[Richard]

Say what? s'plain Lucy...

I was responding to the post above mine.

RE: not everybody is a gearhead.

My intent was not everybody is or could be said about everything but,the whole something for everybody goes into the bigger picture.