Detroit river railroad tunnel

[boater4life]

Anyone know the status of the renovations supposed to take place of the tunnel under the detroit river? Apparantly they are making it bigger so that the bigger train cars can fit under it. Right now, the current tunnel isn't big enough. Also, what kind of barrier do they have that keeps someone from just walking the tracks and into a different countrty? Obviously, I would assume there is something stopping you from doing that?

[Scottathew]

Also, what kind of barrier do they have that keeps someone from just walking the tracks and into a different countrty? Obviously, I would assume there is something stopping you from doing that?

I've always wondered that too! I'm sure someone here knows the answer. I've always wondered what stops a boat from starting in one country, go fishing for a couple hours, and then ending the trip in the other side of the country. Are there people watching to see where every single insignificant watercraft comes and goes?

[Bro Greg]

The tunnel entrance is loaded with cameras, compliments of your Border Patrol. When the agents aren't at the Honey Bee market gorging themselves on the daily specials, I think they monitor them.

Fourteen years since the "war on terror" began and no Muslim radicals have attacked on American soil. They must be doing a bitchin' job! Either that or we've been duped.

I believe it's the latter.

[Richard]

Anyone know the status of the renovations supposed to take place of the tunnel under the detroit river? Apparantly they are making it bigger so that the bigger train cars can fit under it. Right now, the current tunnel isn't big enough. Also, what kind of barrier do they have that keeps someone from just walking the tracks and into a different countrty? Obviously, I would assume there is something stopping you from doing that?

They were trying to start construction this year,some delays on the Canada side,nothing major and the little matter of a two hundred million cash shortfall.

Michigan threw in 10 million to get the ball rolling,cause they had it laying around I guess,and the rest was supposed to come from the feds and private funding.It was hoped for anyways.

That was last year anyways,the website is down or non existent anymore.

The last I saw was with a news piece a few months back discussing the new bridge and they mentioned that the tunnel project was stalled because the private side figured the financials were not there to support it.

EDIT: found it here,skip the above rambling and read this,it slpains it.

http://blogs.windsorstar.com/news/de...d-indefinitely

I think an oncoming train would de-rail any thoughts of scurrying through the tunnel to greener pastures,but I would assume there are cameras and guys with guns on the other end that would also serve as a minor deterrent.

[Jimaz]

... Fourteen years since the "war on terror" began and no Muslim radicals have attacked on American soil. They must be doing a bitchin' job! Either that or we've been duped.

I believe it's the latter.

That's funny. Security is like that.

When we haven't paid enough for security we regret the consequences but when we've paid too much for it there's no clue that we've overpaid. We might as well have paid for nothing — a textbook scam.

[Wesley Mouch]

The tunnel entrance is loaded with cameras, compliments of your Border Patrol. When the agents aren't at the Honey Bee market gorging themselves on the daily specials, I think they monitor them.

Fourteen years since the "war on terror" began and no Muslim radicals have attacked on American soil. They must be doing a bitchin' job! Either that or we've been duped.

I believe it's the latter.

It could be a little of both.

But on topic, BP parks there a lot and just watches. I'll be there are also motion sensors as well.

[EastsideAl]

I've always wondered that too! I'm sure someone here knows the answer. I've always wondered what stops a boat from starting in one country, go fishing for a couple hours, and then ending the trip in the other side of the country. Are there people watching to see where every single insignificant watercraft comes and goes?

They actually do keep pretty good track now of boats. There are a lot of patrols on the water, between U.S. & Canadian Coast Guard, various police departments, and the U.S. Border Patrol, not all of them 'uniformed'. As well as surveillance from many cameras and monitoring from the air. From my perch I see the surveillance and boats being stopped and checked on the river all the time.

For most of the lives of these two cities though, this was treated as pretty much a non-issue. My grandfather used to take us out in his boat from the east side of Detroit, take us swimming on Peche Island [[which is in Canada), than we would go for some drinks and a perch dinner at a place on the Canadian side, before returning to Detroit. We would even sometimes meet up with some of our Canadian relatives for dinner or perhaps go visiting for a little while.

There were no customs guards, or other formalities, and it was done all the time going both ways. I certainly remember Canadians docking up by Sindbad's and coming in for a beer or two. Around my family's place on the Canadian shore of Lake Erie it was not unusual for folks to get visitors by boat down from the Detroit area or even over from Ohio.

Of course, it did become an issue during prohibition for a few years, but really only on the U.S. side. My grandfather told us about the signalling system they used to give the all-clear for 'running' across the river, making use of the navigation towers on Peche Island and next to the Marine Hospital in Detroit.

[EastsideAl]

what kind of barrier do they have that keeps someone from just walking the tracks and into a different countrty? Obviously, I would assume there is something stopping you from doing that?

As others have said, they have put in an awful lot of monitoring to save us from the Canadian hordes. You can't get close to the tunnel entrances at all anymore, and even trying to take a picture will get you in trouble.

But anyone would have to be a bit nuts and unconcerned for their lives to try to walk through the mile and a half long tunnel anyway. The tubes are very narrow, with almost no room to escape if you get caught by a train in there. And the locomotives are electric, so there's also a live third-rail carrying a deadly voltage to contend with in the dark.

[Richard]

They actually do keep pretty good track now of boats. There are a lot of patrols on the water, between U.S. & Canadian Coast Guard, various police departments, and the U.S. Border Patrol, not all of them 'uniformed'. As well as surveillance from many cameras and monitoring from the air. From my perch I see the surveillance and boats being stopped and checked on the river all the time.

For most of the lives of these two cities though, this was treated as pretty much a non-issue. My grandfather used to take us out in his boat from the east side of Detroit, take us swimming on Peche Island [[which is in Canada), than we would go for some drinks and a perch dinner at a place on the Canadian side, before returning to Detroit. We would even sometimes meet up with some of our Canadian relatives for dinner or perhaps go visiting for a little while.

There were no customs guards, or other formalities, and it was done all the time going both ways. I certainly remember Canadians docking up by Sindbad's and coming in for a beer or two. Around my family's place on the Canadian shore of Lake Erie it was not unusual for folks to get visitors by boat down from the Detroit area or even over from Ohio.

Of course, it did become an issue during prohibition for a few years, but really only on the U.S. side. My grandfather told us about the signalling system they used to give the all-clear for 'running' across the river, making use of the navigation towers on Peche Island and next to the Marine Hospital in Detroit.

Peche Island is mentioned on a boating site and people stopped going there because of being harassed so much with the checks.

You have to wonder what that has done to the tourism industry marine wise to both sides.

[EastsideAl]

Peche Island was boaters' paradise back in the day, for people from both sides. I was just looking at some great slides my family has from the '60s of dozens of boats all anchored off of the island and hundreds of people having a good time on the beach and in the water. Folks even used to anchor overnight in the cove there and have a good ol' time. But, now, you know, the Canadians are coming, the Canadians are coming!

[Brich]

And the locomotives are electric, so there's also a live third-rail carrying a deadly voltage to contend with in the dark.

There may still be a physical third-rail installed on the tracks, but if so, it would not be "hot". The last all-electric locomotives operated in the 1950's.

[Sandhouse]

To answer the other part of the question, the existing tunnel cannot be made bigger. It is made of cast iron [[and was assembled in sections in Ecorse, floated into position and sunk in a dredged channel, and bolted together). it is proposed to build a second, bored tunnel, probably underneath the existing one on about the same alignment. Although some public money has been pledged, this project will happen when the Canadian Pacific finds enough capital to pay for its share. The tunnel would not be built directly by CP, but by a firm called Borealis Partners, if I remember correctly, and partly financed by Canadian pension investments. One guess is that the schedule depends on the rate at which containerized traffic picks up.

It has also been suggested that the existing rail tunnel become a toll truck tunnel after the second rail tunnel is built, but the Gordie Howe Bridge will probably make that uneconomic.

[saransmith36]

Backers of the proposed $400 million Canadian effort to build a larger commercial train tunnel underneath the Detroit River said today that they will soon have all financing and approvals in place, and construction will begin in the second or third quarter of 2014.
Right now, the project still lacks half its estimated funding needs and some of its regulatory approvals.
Marge Byington Potter, executive director of corporate affairs for Continental Rail Gateway project, declined to disclose the financing plan, but did say the required Presidential Permit will be sought from the U.S. Department of State next year.
She also said a plan is in place that will have the funding in place early next year. It could be a mix of government and private money.
"We are getting our financing in very good shape right now," she said.
The project also still requires Canadian environmental approvals, Byington Potter said, adding that all the permitting is on track for 2014 approval.
Much of the pre-construction work is finished, she said.

"Engineering is in place. All the testing has been done. We will go out for bid for the tunnel boring machine and be looking for construction [[bids), on both sides of the river," she said.

Design and engineering work has been done by Omaha, Neb.-based HDR Inc.; Toronto-based MMM Group, and Iselin, N.J.-based Hatch Mott Macdonald Group Inc.

The project is expected to take three years, meaning the tunnel could open in 2017.

The tunnel effort, in the works for more than a decade, is aimed at constructing a larger rail tunnel that could accommodate double-stacked, 9-foot-6 containers and some new generations of multilevel rail cars used by shippers and auto manufacturers.

The current century-old tunnel isn't big enough to handle the new train cars, even after a previous expansion.

Participants in the tunnel project are Toronto-based Borealis Infrastructure Management Inc., Calgary-based Canadian Pacific Railway Ltd. and the Windsor Port Authority.

Borealis, investment arm of the Ontario Municipal Employees Retirement System, is expected to finance most of the tunnel work

Borealis has more than $55 billion in assets and increased its stake in the tunnel and the project from 50 percent to 83.5 percent in an $87.7 million deal in 2009.

The current Detroit tunnel — its entrance is within the square created by 12th and 16th streets, Bagley Street and West Lafayette Boulevard — was built in 1909 and enlarged in 1994. The tunnel, along with the nearby land needed for a new tube, is owned by Borealis and Canadian Pacific.

In Windsor, the tunnel portal is just south of the intersection of Wyandotte Street and Wellington Avenue.

It handles about 350,000 rail cars annually.

The tunnel consortium has said it has spent between $75 million and $100 million in engineering and environmental studies since it was launched in 2001.

Currently, only the $200 million freight and passenger train tunnel, built in 1994 underneath the St. Clair River between Port Huron and Sarnia, Ontario, by Canadian National Railway Corp., can handle the largest rail freight trains. CN maintains that tunnel almost exclusively for its own trains.

[Richard]

^^^ That was dated for release in 2014,the link I posted is the updated early 2015 .

I did the same thing at first because they list the currant date at the top and you have to really look for the actual publish date.

It is funny how if you want to find out what is going on in this country,you have to read other countries papers.

[Richard]

Peche Island was boaters' paradise back in the day, for people from both sides. I was just looking at some great slides my family has from the '60s of dozens of boats all anchored off of the island and hundreds of people having a good time on the beach and in the water. Folks even used to anchor overnight in the cove there and have a good ol' time. But, now, you know, the Canadians are coming, the Canadians are coming!

Nice memories,one has to wonder when all of the things like that are curtailed,eliminated,or deterred the impact of children of today,like the girls spending the day at the ballpark taking selfies,it is kinda sad in a away.

I think the Canadians are smart and that is why they want the new bridge,under that guise they are going to build a tunnel underneath,then at night when Detroit sleeps they sneak in,in the morning it becomes For French push button #1.It should be easy enough because then everybody can say it is Detroit's fault and make it seem better.

I think they will stop at the Mason Dixon line though because after that it is to hot and lots of bugs and swamps.Not really worth it.

[Honky Tonk]

The tunnel entrance is loaded with cameras, compliments of your Border Patrol. When the agents aren't at the Honey Bee market gorging themselves on the daily specials, I think they monitor them.

Fourteen years since the "war on terror" began and no Muslim radicals have attacked on American soil. They must be doing a bitchin' job! Either that or we've been duped.

I believe it's the latter.

Google "911", Bro, I do believe Muslim radicals DID attack on American soil.

[Richard]

Do they actually have to physically attack or provide the justification to attack without being here.
I think that is happening more so.

But it has become a billion dollar industry based on perceived fear.

[Ray1936]

Library of Congress photo, copied from www.shorpy.com. Circa 1920's.

[douglasm]

To get back on topic, the tunnel isn't tall enough to take a double stack of 9' 8" containers. At Port Huron, the CN/GTW used barges until they drilled a new tunnel. Given that the S S Huron is sunk in a slip at Ecorse I think) I wonder.......

[EastsideAl]

There may still be a physical third-rail installed on the tracks, but if so, it would not be "hot". The last all-electric locomotives operated in the 1950's.

They did? Damn, I guess things changed since my grandfather worked there. And he always made such a big deal about the electric locomotives too.

[Brich]

This website gives a brief history of the Detroit River Tunnel, along with some pictures of the all-electric locomotives: http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/photos/us/DRT.htm

[mikeg19]

Completely insane and most likely not economically feasible, but instead of spending $200M to heighten the tunnel, add to the new Gordie Howe bridge a second deck for rail?

Anyone with some insight on what that might add to the tab for the bridge? I'm assuming if/when they start construction on the tunnel, that would be completely shut down and all rail traffic would have to go through Port Huron. That's got to take an economic toll.

[MikeM]

Completely insane and most likely not economically feasible, but instead of spending $200M to heighten the tunnel, add to the new Gordie Howe bridge a second deck for rail?

Anyone with some insight on what that might add to the tab for the bridge? I'm assuming if/when they start construction on the tunnel, that would be completely shut down and all rail traffic would have to go through Port Huron. That's got to take an economic toll.

I don't know about the bridge structure itself, but acquiring the land and building rail approaches to the bridge at a shallow enough gradient for trains to handle without extra power would probably be the prohibitive part.

[Hermod]

I don't know about the bridge structure itself, but acquiring the land and building rail approaches to the bridge at a shallow enough gradient for trains to handle without extra power would probably be the prohibitive part.

Yes, that is why MCD is so far from downtown because of the distance needed to bring the trains up from the tunnel at a reasonable grade.

[douglasm]

I doubt if they would raise the roof of the tunnel, except maybe to notch it for containers. What is more likely is that they would lower the floor, like BNSF did for the Cascade Tunnel a number of years ago. Dropping the floor wouldn't cause structural problems raising the roof would.