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  1. #26
    DetroitBoy Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by softailrider View Post
    Doesn't seem like a good career move. I'm sure the guy had the right intentions but there's a good chance his life is going to get complicated big time. I wouldn't have done it, banks have plenty of money, 11K isn't going to hurt them at all.
    I almost think him shooting the robber had nothing to do with the money. I think it had a lot more to do with him feeling helpless in his own neighborhood and feeling the need to strike back at the violence that threatens it. People are fed up watching their neighborhoods fall to crime caused by fearless hoodlums who strike anywhere and anytime. Watching the neighborhoods turn ghetto that they grew up in due to unchecked violence which has spread into the suburbs from Detroit. People who can't afford to move aren't going to give up without a fight. I would expect to see more of these kind of incidents in the future.

  2. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitBoy View Post
    If this case is prosecuted in Macomb County, there will be no issue with the person who shot the robber. Warren and Macomb County will not fall into the trap you have in Wayne County where the criminal works the system and puts everyone else on the defensive. The Mayor of Warren was on the news today saying the person who shot the robber will be honored. They should have a parade for him as well.
    This is where I see a problem. I have no feelings one way or the other about the person that shot the bank robber.

    But what happens when all the people out there who want their 15 minutes of fame decide that this is a perfect vehicle to propel them into that position. What happens down the road, when someone pulls a gun in a bank, demands money, and 3 or 4 people draw weapons in a crowded space. Each of them wanting to become an honored citizen of a crime weary city. A hero.

    Sad scenario.

  3. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by old guy View Post
    This is where I see a problem. I have no feelings one way or the other about the person that shot the bank robber.

    But what happens when all the people out there who want their 15 minutes of fame decide that this is a perfect vehicle to propel them into that position. What happens down the road, when someone pulls a gun in a bank, demands money, and 3 or 4 people draw weapons in a crowded space. Each of them wanting to become an honored citizen of a crime weary city. A hero.

    Sad scenario.
    That and perps become antsyer, and shoot the first person that sneezes during the robbery. Still, I'm getting a little tired of being the victim.

  4. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by old guy View Post
    This is where I see a problem. I have no feelings one way or the other about the person that shot the bank robber.

    But what happens when all the people out there who want their 15 minutes of fame decide that this is a perfect vehicle to propel them into that position. What happens down the road, when someone pulls a gun in a bank, demands money, and 3 or 4 people draw weapons in a crowded space. Each of them wanting to become an honored citizen of a crime weary city. A hero.

    Sad scenario.
    Again, a far reach. One person defended himself (well, two if you count the guy who shot the person trying to steal his car) in a sea of crime and illegally-carried weapons in Detroit. Most people who take a CPL course are taught the repercussions of using deadly force. Actually thinking that 4 or 5 people are going to hang out at banks waiting to shoot it out with a thief is ridiculous paranoia. I know quite a few people who carry, and unlike the (illegally carrying) asshole who tried to rob the bank, you wouldn't know they were licensed even if you asked. On the other hand, criminals who think "it's Detroit/Warren, I'll get away with it" can now consider a new range of possibilities.

  5. #30

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    Yes, the criminal assumes sitting ducks in most scenerios. Indeed new possibilities are arising!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gpwrangler View Post
    ...On the other hand, criminals who think "it's Detroit/Warren, I'll get away with it" can now consider a new range of possibilities.

  6. #31

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    http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/d...arren/35429196
    Real credible perp. Story just keeps getting better.

  7. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gpwrangler View Post
    http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/d...arren/35429196
    Real credible perp. Story just keeps getting better.
    Better for Geoff Fieger or Venn Johnson perhaps to sign him up start suing everyone?
    The bank employees filled the bag with an undisclosed amount of money and Mann started to walk out of the bank, according to the complaint.

    The customer, who has a concealed pistol license, shot the Mann several times, police said.
    Are they going to charge the citizen? I would think not as it'd be a PR disaster, but from a real actual law perspective, you can use lethal force in self defense if you're in reasonable fear of death or GBH (either directly or to the people there) ...in other words, if the bad guy has a realistic chance of capping you (or other customers).

    if the guy is running away....not sure how he still claims self defense at this point. The threat is over.....guy has his bag and is leaving. Of course the video may show the gun still trained on him or something.... or perhaps was waiving it at others....so plausible defense, it's just not how that has been reported thus far.

  8. #33

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    Drawing a gun suggests an intent to use it. Yet, from what I'm reading here, the vigilante better be able to prove that he was personally threatened. If so, this suggests that the law condemns those who take action for the collective good. The concept of taking action for the collective good is dead in this scenario and discourages doing so.

    I was once on a community board for a non-profit. We had created 28 jobs but a shady character caused our enterprise to collapse and lawsuits began flying. I asked my attorney why anyone in their right mind would be on a board or why he was the head of a volunteer fire department when there were personally no financial rewards but huge possible financial problems. After all, the brakes on the volunteer fire truck might fail. His answer was that we just live once and have to take some chances. He did not defend the law.

    Earlier in this thread it was suggested that this shooting the fault of not enough money being spent on beefing up the police state. It was a sad comment suggesting the abdication of community action in deference to depending on absent parent figures.
    Last edited by oladub; September-23-15 at 09:27 PM.

  9. #34

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    "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers".

    Henry The Sixth, Part 2 Act 4, scene 2, 71–78

  10. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by oladub View Post
    ...I was once on a community board for a non-profit. We had created 28 jobs but a shady character caused our enterprise to collapse and lawsuits began flying. I asked my attorney why anyone in their right mind would be on a board or why he was the head of a volunteer fire department when their were personally no financial rewards but huge possible financial problems. After all, the brakes on the volunteer fire truck might fail. His answer was that we just live once and have to take some chances. He did not defend the law....
    My understanding is that insurance can and should be purchased to protect board members against such situations. Of course "flying lawsuit" situations should still be avoided.

  11. #36

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    I'm all for sending a message...

    If the old fart who capped the bad get's charged or sued then a Go fund me account for the old guy get's my donation and full support for Jury nullification.

  12. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimaz View Post
    My understanding is that insurance can and should be purchased to protect board members against such situations. Of course "flying lawsuit" situations should still be avoided.
    Yes, insurance is available.

  13. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by oladub View Post
    Drawing a gun suggests an intent to use it. Yet, from what I'm reading here, the vigilante better be able to prove that he was personally threatened. If so, this suggests that the law condemns those who take action for the collective good. The concept of taking action for the collective good is dead in this scenario and discourages doing so.
    ...snip...
    The question is 'who gets to decide the public good'. I do hope he or someone else was truly threatened -- because robbers deserve to be shot. And good samaritans should be celebrated. But if he wasn't threatened, he wasn't just a good samaritan. He was also judge, jury, and executioner. And he wasn't appointed to those jobs.

  14. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch View Post
    The question is 'who gets to decide the public good'. I do hope he or someone else was truly threatened -- because robbers deserve to be shot. And good samaritans should be celebrated. But if he wasn't threatened, he wasn't just a good samaritan. He was also judge, jury, and executioner. And he wasn't appointed to those jobs.
    Nah, he wasn't threatened. The thug thought he was at a gun show. And these assholes just needed a car to get to medical school.

    http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/loca...23790890-story

  15. #40
    DetroitBoy Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gpwrangler View Post
    http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/d...arren/35429196
    Real credible perp. Story just keeps getting better.
    I wonder if the robber is eligible to be prosecuted under the new crime task force mandates announced in June. They state:

    - Felons with one prior violent crime conviction will now face federal prosecution.
    - Offenders with three prior violent felony convictions or drug convictions will receive a mandatory minimum 15-year prison sentence for possession of a firearm.
    - Offenders who use a gun during a violent crime will face a minimum of five years, with additional mandatory minimum sentence of 25 years for a second offense

    http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...ence/28308389/
    Last edited by DetroitBoy; September-23-15 at 08:52 PM.

  16. #41

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimaz View Post
    My understanding is that insurance can and should be purchased to protect board members against such situations. Of course "flying lawsuit" situations should still be avoided.
    You're correct that insurance, it's expensive, could have been purchased but in our situation it was create jobs or enrich insurance companies. I learned my lesson about no good deed goes unpunished. But the shooter, at best, may have felt threatened. Maybe he saved some lives by taking this gun wielding thief off the street for awhile but I doubt he will get much credit for that possibility as long as there are lawyers feeding at the trough.

  17. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gpwrangler View Post
    Again, a far reach. One person defended himself (well, two if you count the guy who shot the person trying to steal his car) in a sea of crime and illegally-carried weapons in Detroit. Most people who take a CPL course are taught the repercussions of using deadly force. Actually thinking that 4 or 5 people are going to hang out at banks waiting to shoot it out with a thief is ridiculous paranoia. I know quite a few people who carry, and unlike the (illegally carrying) asshole who tried to rob the bank, you wouldn't know they were licensed even if you asked. On the other hand, criminals who think "it's Detroit/Warren, I'll get away with it" can now consider a new range of possibilities.
    GP, I'm not implying that people that want to become a hero will start hanging out at banks waiting for a chance to save innocent people who aren't armed. I merely wonder what precedence will be set if someone pulls a gun in a public place, starts blasting and then is honored for doing so.

    Personally, I'd almost rather have one person with a gun that would like to exit as soon as possible than to be caught in a crossfire. That's just my personal feelings on the subject.

    Online banking. Check it out. No lines, no guns.

  18. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by oladub View Post
    You're correct that insurance, it's expensive, could have been purchased but in our situation it was create jobs or enrich insurance companies. I learned my lesson about no good deed goes unpunished. But the shooter, at best, may have felt threatened. Maybe he saved some lives by taking this gun wielding thief off the street for awhile but I doubt he will get much credit for that possibility as long as there are lawyers feeding at the trough.
    Creating 38 jobs is not cheap. Your organization should have included funding for your insurance. Then maybe you could have created 380 jobs, not just 38 or zero.

    Not to mention that your sharing your experience might discourage others from participation in civic life. While I think 'creating jobs' is a fools errand, I applaud your engagement anyway.

  19. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch View Post
    Not to mention that your sharing your experience might discourage others from participation in civic life. While I think 'creating jobs' is a fools errand, I applaud your engagement anyway.
    Sometimes I have a hard time reading you. Is that sarcasm.... I hope.

  20. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by old guy View Post
    GP, I'm not implying that people that want to become a hero will start hanging out at banks waiting for a chance to save innocent people who aren't armed. I merely wonder what precedence will be set if someone pulls a gun in a public place, starts blasting and then is honored for doing so.

    Personally, I'd almost rather have one person with a gun that would like to exit as soon as possible than to be caught in a crossfire. That's just my personal feelings on the subject.

    Online banking. Check it out. No lines, no guns.
    He didn't "start blasting". He hit what he was aiming at. He didn't hit anything else. There was no "crossfire" like on TV. It was a refreshing change from the half-dozen dead citizens I hear about on the news every morning. People today are so concerned about criminals' rights that they put up with terrorism and live in fear. But it's a Detroit phenomenon. Northern suburbs don't have nearly as many of these issues. What do you think would happen to a carjacker in Davison, for instance? Bet they don't try that shit up there. The "precedence" would probably be the same down here if a few of these guys ran into customers with balls like this fucker did.

  21. #46

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gpwrangler View Post
    He didn't "start blasting". He hit what he was aiming at. He didn't hit anything else. There was no "crossfire" like on TV. It was a refreshing change from the half-dozen dead citizens I hear about on the news every morning. People today are so concerned about criminals' rights that they put up with terrorism and live in fear. But it's a Detroit phenomenon. Northern suburbs don't have nearly as many of these issues. What do you think would happen to a carjacker in Davison, for instance? Bet they don't try that shit up there. The "precedence" would probably be the same down here if a few of these guys ran into customers with balls like this fucker did.

    Beat me to posting this.......

  22. #47
    DetroitBoy Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gpwrangler View Post
    He didn't "start blasting". He hit what he was aiming at. He didn't hit anything else. There was no "crossfire" like on TV. It was a refreshing change from the half-dozen dead citizens I hear about on the news every morning. People today are so concerned about criminals' rights that they put up with terrorism and live in fear. But it's a Detroit phenomenon. Northern suburbs don't have nearly as many of these issues. What do you think would happen to a carjacker in Davison, for instance? Bet they don't try that shit up there. The "precedence" would probably be the same down here if a few of these guys ran into customers with balls like this fucker did.
    That's right. Detroit has tolerated this kind of urban terrorism for years allowing neighborhoods to be destroyed and innocent people robbed and murdered while the hoodlums get off free. Even if they have been convicted, many of them are out on the streets having skipped early paroles which they didn't deserve to be given. The community in Detroit harbors these criminals instead of turning them in to the police. The police are trying to improve the situation and reduce crime but it has been so out of control for so long, it won't really start to change until average citizens say they have had enough. If that means defending yourself in public, that is the way it has to be. This is especially important now since this kind of Detroit phenomenon has spread to the first ring suburbs which are starting to fall.

  23. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitBoy View Post
    This is especially important now since this kind of Detroit phenomenon has spread to the first ring suburbs which are starting to fall.
    Yep, Now that it's your ass, it's time to get concerned.

  24. #49

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gpwrangler View Post
    He didn't "start blasting". He hit what he was aiming at. He didn't hit anything else.
    Well yeah, he kinda did....
    Then, Warren Mayor Jim Fouts said, Kendrick fired his Smith & Wesson M&P 9 mm shield, emptying it and hitting the suspected robber three times, once in each arm and a leg.
    he emptied his magazine and IIRC that firearm has a a 10+1 capacity. He fired as many as 11 shots and only managed to wing the guy with three. He hit A LOT of something else....just luckily not other people.

    aim center mass, squeeze the trigger....

    Quote Originally Posted by Gpwrangler View Post
    There was no "crossfire" like on TV.
    yea, because, according to the reporting, the perp was fleeing when the citizen started blasting away, apparently with his eyes closed.
    Last edited by bailey; September-24-15 at 08:34 AM.

  25. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by softailrider View Post
    Doesn't seem like a good career move. I'm sure the guy had the right intentions but there's a good chance his life is going to get complicated big time. I wouldn't have done it, banks have plenty of money, 11K isn't going to hurt them at all.
    A dangerous thought. A lapse in morality. So quick to judge.

    You may be right that his life will be complicated. Less clear is that his moral compass is broken.

    There seems to be little in our sad media about what really happened. The News says:
    During the bank robbery, the 43-year-old male suspect pointed a gun at a 63-year-old male customer, Fouts said. The customer, who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon, then shot the suspect in both arms and one leg, injuring him.
    When I find myself on the receiving end of a bank robber's gun, I hope you aren't the only person around.

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