What the heck happened?

**dguy4evr** · September-16-15, 02:08 PM

I know I am probably beating a past thread to death but here goes....

I was born and raised on Detroit's lower East Side. We floated around the area bounded by Warren to the North, Charlevoix to the South, Conner to the West, and Alter to the East. After attending Jackson Jr. High School, I decided to go to Wilbur Wright Co-Op High School. I was told that it had the best automotive curriculum in the state and it did indeed. It had the best teachers and equipment you could ask for.

The point of this thread is this: I was a white student attending a predominantly non white school. Most of the students were either Latino or African American. This was during the early to mid 60's when there was a lot of dissension between the races. Although there was this animosity I never felt it in school. There was the occasional flare up but it was usually due to what we called, "Copping on someone's Mama" that sometimes got out of hand. But other than that we were in the school to get an education and we learned to work together despite our different backgrounds. My best friends in school were almost all non white and I left there with so many fond memories and a great all around education. My point is, maybe I'm a pipe dreamer but I don't understand why there is so much animosity today compared to then. There was a lot more racial profiling and abuse by the police back then. Where are we going wrong? It seems like there is a breakdown of communication and a feeling of animosity toward each other for no reason but color. Am I missing something here?

**313WX** · September-16-15, 02:25 PM

We just hear more about racial profiling and animosity now because the news about it travels farther and faster. Plus, there are a lot more special interest groups that profit from sensationalizing this stuff than in the past.

I agree that things are much better now than 50 years ago overall

**mwilbert** · September-16-15, 02:34 PM

I think this is perfectly good question, but answering it in any reasonable way [[and I'm not saying I could) would require going through a fairly comprehensive political, economic, and social history of at least the past 50 years in the US, in a way that would be certain to irritate almost everyone who reads this forum. I really don't think that this medium is suitable for that discussion.

One book I liked that describes part of what happened in between, even though it doesn't really answer your question, is "Nixonland" by Rick Perlstein, but that is just one of the hundreds if not thousands of books that deal with aspects of this subject, from all different perspectives. As you might imagine, this is not a subject where there is broad agreement.

**hybridy** · September-16-15, 03:42 PM

"Right now, all sorts of people are trying to rethink and reinvent education, to get poor minority kids performing as well as white kids. But there's one thing nobody tries anymore, despite lots of evidence that it works: desegregation"

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/562/the-problem-we-all-live-with

http://www.propublica.org/article/fe...ol-segregation

**Hermod** · September-16-15, 04:41 PM

How many times do we go down this road? We can make all the plans we want for desegregation. We can have cross district busing. The fact of the matter is that there is a racial "tipping point" a percentage where a school becomes "too black" and rapidly re-segregates as white families move away, send their kids to private or parochial school, send their kids to live with grandparents, falsify addresses, home school, etc. As one lawyer noted in a school desegregation court case where intense busing wasn't meeting desegregation goals, "what are you going to do, chase them with helicopters?". Unless we can force people to live in properly diversified communities and force them to send their kids to the assigned public school, any desegregated school which passes the "tipping point" will rapidly become [[virtually) all minority.

**hybridy** · September-16-15, 05:07 PM

Give it a listen bruh

**313WX** · September-16-15, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by hybridy

Give it a listen bruh

He's right. You can't force people to integrate with each other.

**Hermod** · September-16-15, 05:15 PM

Data has shown that black kids in a 95% white school do a whole lot better than black kids in a 95% black school. Since experience has shown that we can not realistically get rid of 95% black schools, the question then has to be how can we make a 95% black school function effectively so as to provide an adequate [[or better, excellent) education for the kids in that school?

**JenniferL** · September-16-15, 06:50 PM

A 95% black school can function if the student population is mostly middle class. [[For a local example, see Southfield.) But middle-class black parents, like middle-class white parents, will move or send their kids to private schools if the local school gets to be "too poor."

**mwilbert** · September-16-15, 07:08 PM

There are several models of school that have proven effective for largely black/poor student populations, for example the Success Academy and KIPP models. The problem is that although these models have been shown to be replicable, with successful schools in multiple locations, they haven't been shown to be scalable, because the demands on the teachers are extreme and the costs are high, which makes staffing and paying for more of these schools very difficult. Many of the existing schools are subsidized by foundations or other sources, but obviously there is a limit to how much of that type of money is available.

**Dan Wesson** · September-16-15, 07:12 PM

What the heck happened?

"My point is, maybe I'm a pipe dreamer but I don't understand why there is so much animosity today compared to then."

Empowerment... as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empowerment

**Shai_Hulud** · September-16-15, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by hybridy

"Right now, all sorts of people are trying to rethink and reinvent education, to get poor minority kids performing as well as white kids. But there's one thing nobody tries anymore, despite lots of evidence that it works: desegregation"

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/562/the-problem-we-all-live-with

http://www.propublica.org/article/fe...ol-segregation

Good article. Sad, but good.

**Hypestyles** · September-17-15, 08:22 AM

Detroit needs several more vo-tech high schools again. Now.

**Hermod** · September-17-15, 08:45 AM

Years ago, you could walk right out of Cass Tech or Commerce into a job. That diploma was like gold.

**Danny** · September-17-15, 09:30 AM

Intergrated schools is not just on race, it's class. That is why Michigan has the Schools of Choice. New students from tough streets and enroll in any well educated public school buildings. It's up of the school board to fill any school buildings to their required capacity so they can be set for count day for receive federal tax dollars.

Every since Charter School Act and the School of Choice Act. pass in Rome[[ I mean Lansing) Detroit Public Schools including other poor performance schools are losing out of their students and teachers. Most of their school buildings closed and in dire need for fed money.

Most Charter Schools are losing out, too. Without their benefactors, their schools closed in a instant [[ even though they receive some fed grants after county day.)

The point of the matter is having your child enroll in a best performing schools depends of class before race. The biggest symptom is will your learn something out of that school.

**Danny** · September-17-15, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by Hermod

Data has shown that black kids in a 95% white school do a whole lot better than black kids in a 95% black school. Since experience has shown that we can not realistically get rid of 95% black schools, the question then has to be how can we make a 95% black school function effectively so as to provide an adequate [[or better, excellent) education for the kids in that school?

That data is true. The performance of the white school is well socially structured; mostly by middle class white families and nuclear families. You send can a poor black kid from the ghetto-hoods of Detroit to any suburban school and he will succeed [[ As long he could fit in with white kids.)

Imagine you could send a white boy from the suburbs to all black Detroit Public School. How would he be educated? Will he mingle and make friends with poor black kids coming from welfare and food stamp pacified families? Will he get beat up! and there is no authorities to help him. I was wondering will he succeed or fail coming from the Detroit Public Schools.

From the results after the Michigan School of Choice Act of 2002. More black kids from Detroit went to successful all white suburban schools. Rarely some white families from the suburbs send their kids to Detroit Public School as more them send their kids to other far away suburban schools.

For results and factual data log in to: http://www.schooldigger.com/go/MI/di...40/search.aspx

You all get more answers what you're looking for.

**Honky Tonk** · September-17-15, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Danny

That data is true. The performance of the white school is well socially structured; mostly by middle class white families and nuclear families. You send can a poor black kid from the ghetto-hoods of Detroit to any suburban school and he will succeed [[ As long he could fit in with white kids.)

Imagine you could send a white boy from the suburbs to all black Detroit Public School. How would he be educated? Will he mingle and make friends with poor black kids coming from welfare and food stamp pacified families? Will he get beat up! and there is no authorities to help him. I was wondering will he succeed or fail coming from the Detroit Public Schools.

From the results after the Michigan School of Choice Act of 2002. More black kids from Detroit went to successful all white suburban schools. Rarely some white families from the suburbs send their kids to Detroit Public School as more them send their kids to other far away suburban schools.

For results and factual data log in to: http://www.schooldigger.com/go/MI/di...40/search.aspx

You all get more answers what you're looking for.

Will he spray paint Black hatred racial slurs on the hallway walls, because, you know, he feel "different"?

**FormerEastsider** · September-17-15, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

Years ago, you could walk right out of Cass Tech or Commerce into a job. That diploma was like gold.

I went to Commerce and then Cass when Commerce was torn down. That was good back in the 60's but now if they don't walk right into a university and stay until they have a master's degree or higher it won't matter what high school they graduated from.

**ndavies** · September-17-15, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by FormerEastsider

I went to Commerce and then Cass when Commerce was torn down. That was good back in the 60's but now if they don't walk right into a university and stay until they have a master's degree or higher it won't matter what high school they graduated from.

This is definitely not true. We have a huge demand in the region for skilled trades. You know plumbers, electricians, welders, machinists, electronics techs, mechanics and carpenters. There will be a huge numbers of baby boomers retiring from places that haven't hired people in numbers in years.

These jobs will pay excellent wages due to the pent up demand and the lack of people being trained to do these jobs.

Universities do not teach these skills. Most of these jobs require only an apprenticeship or a 2 year associates degree.

Not every student will get through a university and not every job requires a university degree.

**Honky Tonk** · September-17-15, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by ndavies

This is definitely not true. We have a huge demand in the region for skilled trades. You know plumbers, electricians, welders, machinists, electronics techs, mechanics and carpenters. There will be a huge numbers of baby boomers retiring from places that haven't hired people in numbers in years.

These jobs will pay excellent wages due to the pent up demand and the lack of people being trained to do these jobs.

Universities do not teach these skills. Most of these jobs require only an apprenticeship or a 2 year associates degree.

Not every student will get through a university and not every job requires a university degree.

True, but it's not your Father's skilled trade. The new order requires working knowledge of math and the sciences. Plus you need to be keen on your analytical and problem solving skills. On the other hand, I work in a "must be degreed" environment. Some of these people can't think their way out of a paper bag.

**ndavies** · September-17-15, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

True, but it's not your Father's skilled trade. The new order requires working knowledge of math and the sciences. Plus you need to be keen on your analytical and problem solving skills. On the other hand, I work in a "must be degreed" environment. Some of these people can't think their way out of a paper bag.

All of these jobs have always required working knowledge of Math and sciences. That's what made them skilled trades. The only addition today is the required basic computer skills.

The difference today is anyone with the math/science skills to do these types of jobs are being pushed into a University track.

**Richard** · September-17-15, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by ndavies

All of these jobs have always required working knowledge of Math and sciences. That's what made them skilled trades. The only addition today is the required basic computer skills.

The difference today is anyone with the math/science skills to do these types of jobs are being pushed into a University track.

I suck at math always have and never graduated high school other then a tour in the military I learned all the trades and semi-retired at age 50 after raising a family.Its more of a mechanical aptitude or basic ability to work with ones hands.With electricity you just have to deal with getting shocked at least once during the process.

But I did learn the basics in shop class while in school.

Your first post was spot on,but the problem as discussed in another post was finding the teachers that were willing to work for a wage under what was available in the private sector.

Maybe they could take a couple of closed schools in Detroit and with a mixture of public and private funds including grants,start a Stage 1 and Stage 2 system.

Companies across the country contribute to the funding,when they see a new employee that has potential but needs more training they go to stage 1 in Detroit where they receive the basic training.After that training is complete the recommending company can choose to either expand that person to stage 2 training or call them back to the shop,either way the sending company has first right of refusal,if they do not need that employee or person back,the individual can choose to advance to stage 2 where apoun completion other companies across the country can draw that labor pool, so a job is guaranteed when finished training.

So it is basically the industry funding a central training center and in return they have skilled labor pool to draw from instead of the constantly hiring and firing of employees that are found not to be qualified.Any students certified after finishing can go to any shop in the country and begin work immediately without a blending in period.

**Honky Tonk** · September-17-15, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by ndavies

All of these jobs have always required working knowledge of Math and sciences. That's what made them skilled trades. The only addition today is the required basic computer skills.

The difference today is anyone with the math/science skills to do these types of jobs are being pushed into a University track.

I totally agree with your assessment.

**FormerEastsider** · September-17-15, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by ndavies

This is definitely not true. We have a huge demand in the region for skilled trades. You know plumbers, electricians, welders, machinists, electronics techs, mechanics and carpenters. There will be a huge numbers of baby boomers retiring from places that haven't hired people in numbers in years.

These jobs will pay excellent wages due to the pent up demand and the lack of people being trained to do these jobs.

Universities do not teach these skills. Most of these jobs require only an apprenticeship or a 2 year associates degree.

Not every student will get through a university and not every job requires a university degree.

I was responding to the poster who was talking about about Cass Tech graduates. Cass Tech, as I'm sure you know, is a college prep high school. It's been 50 years since I graduated but I don't remember them teaching plumbing, welding, or electricity.

**Hermod** · September-17-15, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by FormerEastsider

I was responding to the poster who was talking about about Cass Tech graduates. Cass Tech, as I'm sure you know, is a college prep high school. It's been 50 years since I graduated but I don't remember them teaching plumbing, welding, or electricity.

No, but the guys who took four years of machine shop and mechanical drawing at Cass Tech back in the 40s and 50s had employers snapping them up when they graduated.