Livernois and McNichols

[emu steve]

One of the debates on this forum was the downtown/Midtown vs. the neighborhoods. Or the 'what about the neighborhoods?' posts. There are a lot of innovative things happenings in the neighborhoods. This neighborhood is by UDM.

Well, the theme of this article is that neighborhoods can come back and they don't need to be adjacent to downtown to do it or get the love and attention to make it happen.

This program sounds kind of like a 'business improvement district' where monies are raised to improve a particular area with things like streetscaping, etc. [[monies separate from the a governmental unit).

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/bus...hols/71484840/

In Detroit, lights are coming on in the neighborhoods. M-1 is coming. New Center appears to be coming back.

We have one thread about Quicken Loans/Home Depot trying help selective neighborhoods get better.

The side lots program thread theme was that some strong neighborhoods can get much better by having a program which turns vacant lots into a +, not a -.

There are no magic bullets to revitalize a city the geographic size of Detroit. It will be done block by block, neighborhood by neighborhood...

[Danny]

I used too grew up around the Livernois-McNichols area when I was born 1977 and was raised there until 1985. University of Detroit Mercy was an open college. They were thriving businesses just north of the campus and west of McNichols Rd. It was close to Avenue of Fashion Commercial District. Any businesses south of U of D Mercy is started to be torn up when lots of low-come welfare and food stamp folks moved in. When the crackheads from Highland Park started to migrate to my community U of D Mercy started to fortified the campus. They closed of Florence St. from Livernois Rd. to Fairfield St. and brought most of the land where Brent Hospital Building once stood. There are frat housing on Fairfield St. as long as those frat boys don't disturb the neighborhoods. The sub-divisions of University District, Palmer Park, Martin Park, Bagley and Pilgrim Village was very beautiful at my time. Now its all ghetto-like doesn't matter what those neighborhoods look like. It can drive or cruise those through the Detroit ghetto-hood ans see the homes are well kept up. But as you go further inside, folks that want to be bothered, doing drugs and hoodies watching folks ready to rob, shoot and kill.

[belleislerunner]

This area will only take off once restaurants/retail that is world class and only available there comes in. Having a CVS, a Dollar Tree and a Chase bank with landscaping and lights won't pull in anyone.

The reason Midtown/Downtown are coming back so strong is because there is Jolly Pumpkin, Shinola, Hopcat, Townhouse, Cafe D Mongo, Cliff Bells, Bucharest - not because there is CVS, Tim Hortons or Flagstar Bank. When you have visitors in town - you have a place to take them to have a good time.

Kuzzo's Chicken and Waffles and 1917 are a great start. Get 3-5 more world class businesses, whatever they may be and people will drive to check it out. That spurs more development.

[ggores]

I was born 1977 to 1985.

damn dude, that's one hell of a lengthy labor.

[Honky Tonk]

damn dude, that's one hell of a lengthy labor.

Mom must have been exhausted......

[iheartthed]

damn dude, that's one hell of a lengthy labor.

He went from the maternity ward to second grade.

[emu steve]

He went from the maternity ward to second grade.

Or with such a long gestation, he really was a momma's boy. Lot of bonding going on in there. Lol.

[mwilbert]

This area will only take off once restaurants/retail that is world class and only available there comes in. Having a CVS, a Dollar Tree and a Chase bank with landscaping and lights won't pull in anyone.

I doubt anyone thinks 6 Mile and Livernois is going to take off in that sense. It doesn't need world-class anything. It needs to be able to attract the people in the surrounding neighborhoods. It wasn't a strong shopping area 50 years ago, but it did have more businesses catering to the students and the locals, and also businesses that were less depressed-looking.

Kuzzo's Chicken and Waffles and 1917 are a great start. Get 3-5 more world class businesses, whatever they may be and people will drive to check it out. That spurs more development.

Those are both north of 7, nearly a mile north of the north end of this district at Curtis. I wouldn't call either of them world-class either, but they do seem reasonably popular. I see big lines at Kuzzo's on the weekend.

[Hamtragedy]

As for the street scape, well, they've been digging up the ill-advised median and landscaping all spring and summer, only 5 years after putting it in. I guess they forgot lighting.

Livernois as it is now, is relatively desolate on the west side all the way from the Lodge to Curtis. The east side fares a little better. It would be nice to see that area W of Livernois to Marygrove look like something, then again, it took 30 years to look like it does now.

Keep concentrating on the 7 Mile / Livernois area, which looks so much better than even 4 years ago. If University District is able to stop the bleeding, that neighborhood has some of the most affordable beautiful housing stock in the city, are slightly smaller and newer than Boston Edison, and relatively close to Woodward. The latest round of foreclosures here last fall/winter/spring has kept prices relatively deflated. Parts of Parkside and Wildemere are looking a little rough around the edges.

[Danny]

This area will only take off once restaurants/retail that is world class and only available there comes in. Having a CVS, a Dollar Tree and a Chase bank with landscaping and lights won't pull in anyone.

The reason Midtown/Downtown are coming back so strong is because there is Jolly Pumpkin, Shinola, Hopcat, Townhouse, Cafe D Mongo, Cliff Bells, Bucharest - not because there is CVS, Tim Hortons or Flagstar Bank. When you have visitors in town - you have a place to take them to have a good time.

Kuzzo's Chicken and Waffles and 1917 are a great start. Get 3-5 more world class businesses, whatever they may be and people will drive to check it out. That spurs more development.

Notice that ghetto-hoods that surround U of D mercy is mostly black. Middle income folks live mostly in Bagley, University and Palmer Park areas. Low income-welfare and foodstamp folks live mostly south of Puritan from Pilgrim Village to James Couzens area. Fenkell and Livernois was once a beautiful commercial district. The 1975 mini-riot destroyed to nothingless by the 1980s.

Exotic businesses in Midtown survived due to older generation of property owners value historical buildings. Wayne State University and its preservationists want to keep all of its campuses open and gate free. the luring of ethnic folks leads to demand of housing. University of Detroit is not going to planning to break down the gates and open its property to anyone. Security is their primary concern. The campus was open to all public a long time ago when the neighborhood was a real neighborhood. The was filled with middle to blue collar 100% white people. It lasted to the early 1960s the middle income black families from Detroit's West Side migrated to those areas. Then low-income, poor and DEAD [[C)KRAK HEADS come in since the early 1980s.

If Dan Gilbert and his Quicken Loan Gang decided they want to create exotic businesses and rehab Detroit dwellings. He will do it by any means necessary. It the end, property values will go up, landlords will have raise the rent and low-income folks will have to move out.

[belleislerunner]

If Dan Gilbert and his Quicken Loan Gang decided they want to create exotic businesses and rehab Detroit dwellings. He will do it by any means necessary. It the end, property values will go up, landlords will have raise the rent and low-income folks will have to move out.[/QUOTE]

I'd be curious in five years, [[2020) to see an analysis of where everyone who lived in Detroit from 1990-2010 now lived. The outmigration clearly hasn't gone to Macomb or Oakland County, though definitely a few thousand here/there have moved in. It's almost as if everyone who didn't have a job or lost their house moved out of state and started elsewhere, likely in the southern states [[e.g. North Carolina, S. Carolina, Georgia, Arizona, Florida, Texas). With the advent of social media, it's much easier to "stay connected" even while living afar.

I ask because unemployment levels have now bounced back to the pre-recessions levels so, for most people, live has returned to normal. There is no longer any "bad economy" in Michigan, so what became of everyone whose homes turned into urban farms. The areas around Dequindre/McNichols, or City Airport, or Westphalia/7 Mile. Has there been a mass influx of displaced Detroiters around the country, akin to Katrina/New Orleans?

[Hypestyles]

Diversify the restaurants. Indian cuisine. Korean cuisine. Mediterranean/Arab cuisine. How about a dance teaching studio?

[mwilbert]

If University District is able to stop the bleeding, that neighborhood has some of the most affordable beautiful housing stock in the city, are slightly smaller and newer than Boston Edison, and relatively close to Woodward. The latest round of foreclosures here last fall/winter/spring has kept prices relatively deflated. Parts of Parkside and Wildemere are looking a little rough around the edges.

Agree about the nice housing stock, but as far as I can see, prices in the University District are rising at an unreasonable rate. I agree that there are still a bunch of foreclosures that need to be cleaned up before there will be a clear idea of appropriate pricing. On the other hand, I can't say that that I see Parkside and Wildemere looking much different than any of the other streets.

[MSUguy]

UDM and Marygrove need to become less of commuter schools. One of the biggest factors in the turnaround in Midtown was a big increase in WSU students housing. That put more wallets in the area which attracted more businesses and we know the rest of the story. How and where that will happen is an issue given their small campuses and lack of large surrounding vacant parcels.

[Hypestyles]

UDM and Marygrove need to become less of commuter schools. One of the biggest factors in the turnaround in Midtown was a big increase in WSU students housing. That put more wallets in the area which attracted more businesses and we know the rest of the story. How and where that will happen is an issue given their small campuses and lack of large surrounding vacant parcels.

hmm are there any abandoned apartment buildings near the campus that the school can buy?

[professorscott]

UDM and Marygrove need to become less of commuter schools. One of the biggest factors in the turnaround in Midtown was a big increase in WSU students housing. That put more wallets in the area which attracted more businesses and we know the rest of the story. How and where that will happen is an issue given their small campuses and lack of large surrounding vacant parcels.

There's a chicken-and-egg problem to this. Two actually.

First, both of these schools are private [[i.e. no state funding) and neither is exactly swimming in cash. For more people to live on campus there would have to be more, and nicer, places TO live on campus. UDM's newest dormitories are 40+ years old.

Second, the neighborhoods don't really support the students and vice-versa. If it was reasonable to get to Ferndale from either place without a car, that would be a help, but it isn't and it isn't going to be in our lifetimes. I mention Ferndale because that is the closest place to the UDM campus that the kids hang out. The Livernois businesses serve the neighborhoods but aren't in any way student-focused; the last that really was, ABC Bookstore, closed a good many years ago.

If you look at the neighborhood around a mid-size college in any other city, you find lots of businesses set up specifically to take advantage of the student population. These things existed around Marygrove and UDM once, many, many years ago, but not anymore.

[mwilbert]

I don't really agree that this is a chicken-and-egg situation. There are plenty of commuter schools that have more supporting businesses around them than UDM McNichols has. As you observed, U-D has never been primarily a residential school, and it used to have more. They disappeared as the surrounding areas became less safe and less attractive and the campus became more isolated.

And it isn't all that hard to get to Ferndale without a car either. I realize there isn't a convenient way to get there via transit, but it is a reasonable though longish walk, or a short and pleasant bike ride through the University District and Sherwood Forest. These are college students we are talking about--they aren't generally physically unable to propel themselves.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

This area will only take off once restaurants/retail that is world class and only available there comes in. Having a CVS, a Dollar Tree and a Chase bank with landscaping and lights won't pull in anyone.

The reason Midtown/Downtown are coming back so strong is because there is Jolly Pumpkin, Shinola, Hopcat, Townhouse, Cafe D Mongo, Cliff Bells, Bucharest - not because there is CVS, Tim Hortons or Flagstar Bank. When you have visitors in town - you have a place to take them to have a good time.

Kuzzo's Chicken and Waffles and 1917 are a great start. Get 3-5 more world class businesses, whatever they may be and people will drive to check it out. That spurs more development.

I'm not much of a fan of Dollar Tree and that type of store, but a nice tidy and well landscaped CVS or Tim Hortons or Chase Bank? What's wrong with that? I think providing basic retail and services for the surrounding area is the first step. Attracting folks from outside the area is of less importance for a neighborhood retail district.

Further up Livernois, perhaps things could once again be a bit more upscale or unique.

[hybridy]

I don't really agree that this is a chicken-and-egg situation. There are plenty of commuter schools that have more supporting businesses around them than UDM McNichols has. As you observed, U-D has never been primarily a residential school, and it used to have more. They disappeared as the surrounding areas became less safe and less attractive and the campus became more isolated.

And it isn't all that hard to get to Ferndale without a car either. I realize there isn't a convenient way to get there via transit, but it is a reasonable though longish walk, or a short and pleasant bike ride through the University District and Sherwood Forest. These are college students we are talking about--they aren't generally physically unable to propel themselves.

College kids do not walk from mcnichols to ferndale. They got harassed enough being Caucasian and patronizing the coney across the street. The only college oriented business there is the pied piper because they sell to all the under agers. We used to patronize a bar nearby called Courtney's on Tuesdays circa 2003-04. After a few weeks of college night, the place got torched. Fond memories!

[mwilbert]

College kids do not walk from mcnichols to ferndale. They got harassed enough being Caucasian and patronizing the coney across the street. The only college oriented business there is the pied piper because they sell to all the under agers. We used to patronize a bar nearby called Courtney's on Tuesdays circa 2003-04. After a few weeks of college night, the place got torched. Fond memories!

I suspect that you are right that they don't do it. Most of them don't live on campus and get there by car, and so they drive in and drive out, My point was only that if they were living there, they could walk or bike to Ferndale. I do see some of the students walking and running through the neighborhood, but I think that is mostly for exercise rather than transportation.

Based upon my observation and experience in the University District and Sherwood Forest I don't think you are correct about the harassment. I'm white, I walk around the neighborhood a lot, and I pretty much only have friendly interactions with the people I meet. I know other people in the same situation. My older [[white woman) neighbor teaches at U-D and walks down to work there pretty much every day and while I probably haven't heard about any minor mishaps she may have had, whatever has happened to her hasn't caused her to switch to driving. I'm sure people occasionally have bad experiences--if nothing else the neighborhood isn't crime-free--but I wouldn't expect a student walking or biking to Ferndale to have much problem.

[royce]

I don't know who made the decision to make Livernois and Wyoming commercial strips, but that decision caused the mess that you have today in the Livernois corridor from Puritan to Eight Mile. If you look at every major north/south street west of Wyoming: Meyers, Schaefer, Greenfield, Evergreen, and Lahser, you will see that they are predominately residential. The commerical corridors are along the mile roads, from Eight Mile to Warren. The residential side streets along those mile roads feed into them. Therefore, it is easy for residents along those miles roads to get to the businesses in the area.

That's not the case with Livernois and Wyoming. With the residential side streets running parallel to them, it is difficult for residents to get to the businesses along those streets because they have to walk farther. A car is essentially necessary. Now, if the businesses were along McNichols and Seven Mile between Wyoming and Livernois, as well as up to Woodward, they would most definitely see more foot traffic. It is because of this alignment that I believe that the Avenue of Fashion isn't as successful as it could be.

To speak more specifically to the Livernois/Six Mile area, part of the problem is the University of Detroit Mercy itself. Years ago when I attended there, you could park on Livernois and enter the campus midway between Florence and McNichols [[Grove Street). That entrance has been closed. I know it was done for safety reasons but that entrance created some foot traffic. However it really wasn't enough foot traffic to do much in terms of creating retail traffic. What UDM should have done decades ago was to build some buildings along Livernois in that area. Today, if I was UDM, I would consider building some new dorms, much like what Wayne State did on Third/Anthony Wayne Drive. Have retail and restaurants on the ground floor. These new buildings/dorms would extend from McNicols to the former entrance at Grove Street [[which is near the Architecture building). These buildings would also come right up to the sidewalk. Parking would be allowed on the street and behind some of the buildings. Maybe some parking spaces could be carved out of that awful MDOT forced median.

The west side of Livernois would be lined with residential units such as townhouses and three to four story apartments. Put businesses at the corners of Grove, Florence, and Puritan and presto, you have a successful area of housing and businesses. This should also be done along the Avenue of Fashion. Also, if new pedestrian pathways could be created, bisecting some of the side streets west of Livernois and south of McNichols/Six Mile, then that would also improve foot traffic on Livernois.

[Bham1982]

I'd be curious in five years, [[2020) to see an analysis of where everyone who lived in Detroit from 1990-2010 now lived. The outmigration clearly hasn't gone to Macomb or Oakland County, though definitely a few thousand here/there have moved in. It's almost as if everyone who didn't have a job or lost their house moved out of state and started elsewhere, likely in the southern states [[e.g. North Carolina, S. Carolina, Georgia, Arizona, Florida, Texas).

It's sometimes like DYes exists in an alternate universe, where facts are of no consequence.

Back in the real world, former Detroiters are mostly in Oakland or Macomb counties, or somewhere in the region. No, they aren't in Arizona. Every other person in the region has roots in Detroit. This is even more true for blacks [[who are 90% of the people living in and leaving Detroit). Very few blacks in Arizona.

[Bham1982]

hmm are there any abandoned apartment buildings near the campus that the school can buy?

It's a suburban neighborhood. There are apartment buildings in NW Detroit, but they are generally postwar, garden-style buildings, further west, along Greenfield and near Telegraph. I doubt there would be many in proximity to UDM or Marygrove, and it isn't clear why they would need such housing, given that both schools are underenrolled and have excess on-campus capacity.

[belleislerunner]

Let's say the population of Detroit in 2000 was 1 million. Let's say it is now 700K. Let's say the population mix of Detroit proper has remained constant at 85% black.

Please identify which suburbs of Detroit have grown by 300K black people, since 2000, to support your assertion that everyone, or even most, have stayed here.

[the rock]

Diversify the restaurants. Indian cuisine. Korean cuisine. Mediterranean/Arab cuisine. How about a dance teaching studio?

Bring back the Varsity Theatre, although Ray36 and I are probably the only ones who remember it. Great little place.