Sterling Heights Mosque Controversy

[archfan]

Got a mosque here in Dearborn. It's nestled nicely amongst many other places of worship all coexisting here respectfully. No bombings here. No World Net Daily reporting "Christians being crucified" here. In fact traffic is just as it always has been around that area of Ford Rd. [[if anything they should remove the Chili's). What Arab American neighbors I do have are nicer to me than the petty, dour, racist busybodying voted-for-Hubbard veteran resident ones I got also around me.

Back off, pal, I worship a good chili.

[Danny]

Yeah, I'm going to trust that you are wise [[as the Holy Scriptures define wisdom as bearing the trait of one who accepts reproof gracefully) enough to consider what I say here before you use garishly prideful and presumptuous "us vs. them" kind of language like that again:

I can site at the very least seven bible passages where it clearly states that God shows no partiality [[especially not to Pharisaic mindsets-the ones who think they are "in" with God and lack the necessary humility to see past the double-standard we all can easily tread across). God will save who God saves, and it's not for us to presume we know God's ways. Just as St. John states in his second and third letters [[last of the second chapter in the first letter, if you follow?) that anyone who follows and does what is righteous and good is of God.

It would help to know who and what the Samaritans meant in Jesus's time. Yet, the Samaritan did more than any "holy" and "separated" person would [[even if they were coming back from doing their priestly duties in Jerusalem-hence the importance of coming from Jerusalem in that parable) for a wounded-almost seemingly dead man by the side of a road. A Samaritan woman was given the right to find out where Jesus was coming from by the well. And it was a Samaritan who bothered to turn around and give thanks for being healed of his leprosy while his other freshly healed company just moved on. Any one can be a Samaritan in the eyes of today's Christian. They could be a Catholic in the eyes of a ultra-sectarian Protestant, or they can be a Jew, a Muslim, or a gay in the eyes of a xenophobic fundamentalist "Christian".

It would also help to understand what rage Jesus caused preaching in the synagogue in the fourth chapter of Luke. He was suggesting [[by example of historic accounts in scripture) that outsiders of Sidonian and Syrian regions [[most likely not Jews) were better in genuine faith and righteousness than the Widows and Lepers of the more "faithful" in Israel at that time.

Now I'm not going to get into debates about Soteriology-or what makes one "saved' or redeemed in God's eyes [[for yes, I know faith is ultimate, but faith without works is dead, and while you have time and resources on this Earth you better use them for good works just as he who has been given much will be asked will be asked all the more, etc. etc.)-or about assurance based presumptions some may have. All, I ask is that you temper your language carefully if you claim to be a "Man of God".

I wrote Christians are winning battles because that have Jesus on their side. This is a second person sentence not first person.


Those Muslims want to build a mosque, they should do it in zoned commercial area.

By the way the Sterling Heights City Council made their on Sept. 10 instead of Sept 11. [[ sound's familiar!)

[oladub]

President Obama remembered 9/11 in his own way. "President Obama, under increasing pressure to demonstrate that the United States is joining European nations in the effort to resettle Syrian refugees, has told his administration to take in at least 10,000 displaced Syrians over the next year." -NY Times 9/10/15

At least there will be an increased demand for mosques to work into the Sterling Heights equation although Congress, not the executive branch, is delegated the power to establish a uniform naturalization policy. A few years ago, the President announced that the federal government did not have enough resources to enforce immigration laws to deport illegal aliens but suddenly there must be a lot of money available to to take, feed and house 10,000 Syrian refugees created in large part from Obama trying to overthrow Assad. I realize I'm getting off track but today is 9/11 and I remember.

A remembrance:
Courage Under Fire
The 21st century's first war heroes.
By PEGGY NOONAN

[Scottathew]

Even the Walmarts out in Novi, Rochester Hills and Troy are ghetto/trashy.

I've been to the Rochester Hills Walmart, and I worked at the Troy Walmart for 2.5 years. I don't perceive either to be ghetto/trashy.

The customer service is often not optimal, but that's kind of what you get when you shop at a place that pays lower wages.

The Rochester Hills one is pretty new and rather nice. The area that surrounds it is freeway\industrial, but the shopping center its in is well laid out [[for people driving, of course).

[dtowncitylover]

Oh yes it is! I was a democratic decision from the Sterling Heights City Council. Building a mosque in a mostly Chaldean community. That don't mix.

Danny, we live in the USA. Chaldeans don't get to decide if a mosque gets built in "their" neighborhood. The city planning commission does. And it doesn't matter if it doesn't "mix", we're a melting pot remember?

Was Temple Beth El, built in the predominately white, Christian community of Bloomfield Township, bait-ful when they built their synagogue?

[Danny]

Danny, we live in the USA. Chaldeans don't get to decide if a mosque gets built in "their" neighborhood. The city planning commission does. And it doesn't matter if it doesn't "mix", we're a melting pot remember?

Was Temple Beth El, built in the predominately white, Christian community of Bloomfield Township, bait-ful when they built their synagogue?

It's not the Chaldeans making the decisions, It's the city council of Sterling Heights and its planning commision. And it's not just Chaldeans who protest against the mosque, It's Christians, Muslims, Jews and Wiccans, Pagans home owners. Home west of 15 Mile Rd. and Mound Rd. is a residential area. Not a commercial area. If those Muslims want build their mosque. They can do it on Mound Rd. Van Dyke Rd, 14 Mile Rd. or any area that is commercial. This is an issue of zoning before businesses or religious practices.

[Scottathew]

They can do it on Mound Rd. Van Dyke Rd, 14 Mile Rd. or any area that is commercial. This is an issue of zoning before businesses or religious practices.

Now this is an actual REAL argument against the mosque that I would listen to.

[aj3647]

YOU and them move! They are the minority and we have the right to vote on things we don't like. Be it religious or not! WTF? That's the problem with this country nowadays!

I don't live in Sterling Heights, nor any suburb for that matter. What's got you so upset, did this week's Klan meeting get cancelled or something?

Why is violence concern. Has there been any mosque-related violence in Detroit?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_D...e_bombing_plot

If the people behind building this mosque would voluntarily make a gesture such as condemning Sharia law, perhaps that would reassure the locals that this mosque has little or nothing to do with ghastly news stories having to do with Muslims elsewhere.

I would feel a lot better about new churches being built if the Christians building them publicly renounced anti-abortion violence. Why are "good" Christians always so silent when an abortion clinic gets attacked? Their silence implies that all Christians secretly support terrorism and I don't want a Christian terrorist church in my community.

[Dan Wesson]

When it comes to organized religion for all practical purposes there is no such thing as... Live and let live.

[Danny]

What a joke. These people are an embarrassment.

It's standard for schools and religious buildings to be mixed in with residential.

There is already a airport shuttle service, fire station, and doctors offices on 15 mile there, plus a few other small commercial buildings. It's already not a "residential" area and being a mile road you wouldn't expect it to be. The mosque would literally be adjacent to a school and a fire station and a doctor's office.

The parking is not a problem. They say they're providing 130 parking spaces for a maximum of 325 worshipers. Typical attendance is going to be nowhere near the maximum, and a lot of it will be families who will share the same car. In the worst case scenario a few times a year a few cars might have to park at the adjacent school's parking lot. Schools frequently host community events so it should be in line with the spirit and purpose of the facility to provide a few parking spaces in that kind of situation. Likewise at big school events I'm sure some people will park at the mosque.

A mosque is not going to increase traffic on 15 mile. Most of the traffic is just passing through and is unrelated to the neighborhood itself. The rest of the traffic is coming from all of the subdivisions and apartment complexes which dump out exclusively onto 15 mile. For the people directly by the site, they already live next to a loud school that has similar traffic patterns.

To the "If I wanted to live next to a Speedway or a McDonald's I would have done that" person, the site is less than a quarter mile from a burger king and car shop, on a mile road.

There are at least three churches within a mile radius from the site, and there doesn't seem to be any uproar about those. Also, the site is inappropriate for religious institutions [[including churches) because... it's a deeply religious community?

But when you get stuff like "Realtors said we can expect a 30 percent drop in our property values"... vague and exaggerated warnings from realtors saying that your property values will nosedive from a minority having a nearby presence? Where have we heard that before?

The mosque building controversy is a zoning issue over residential issue. It doesn't mix. There some churches alon 15 Mile Rd. but the miles apart from a residential area is they go it right. Religion and race is not the issue those protesters want to keep the mosque out. They look at traffic congestions when they have their Friday [[ Jummah) prayer services. That's democracy in America. We got it right.

[Wesley Mouch]

I've been to the Rochester Hills Walmart, and I worked at the Troy Walmart for 2.5 years. I don't perceive either to be ghetto/trashy.

The customer service is often not optimal, but that's kind of what you get when you shop at a place that pays lower wages.

The Rochester Hills one is pretty new and rather nice. The area that surrounds it is freeway\industrial, but the shopping center its in is well laid out [[for people driving, of course).

Do you find the well-paid customer service at Detroit City Hall to be an example of excellence. [[Full Disclosure: I haven't visited the permit desk in a few years now -- so I'm holding grudges against incompetence.)

Sure, there's a correlation between wages and employees quality -- but I've received some great service from people in low-wage jobs -- jobs they probably quickly lost as their quality brought them opportunity. [[Full Disclosure: I like people and am optimistic about them.)

[Scottathew]

Do you find the well-paid customer service at Detroit City Hall to be an example of excellence. [[Full Disclosure: I haven't visited the permit desk in a few years now -- so I'm holding grudges against incompetence.)

Sure, there's a correlation between wages and employees quality -- but I've received some great service from people in low-wage jobs -- jobs they probably quickly lost as their quality brought them opportunity. [[Full Disclosure: I like people and am optimistic about them.)

High wages without accountability can lead to bad service. Unions shield workers from consequences from their actions.

[oladub]

aj3647 wrote "I would feel a lot better about new churches being built if the Christians building them publicly renounced anti-abortion violence. Why are "good" Christians always so silent when an abortion clinic gets attacked? Their silence implies that all Christians secretly support terrorism and I don't want a Christian terrorist church in my community."

Then go ask them. That's not unreasonable. After all, a total of eight abortion industry workers have died in the US in the last 22 years because of anti-abortion violence. However, in just the 9/11 attack, religiously inspired Muslims killed about 3,000 for comparison. So while I share your legitimate concern over the eight abortion employees who were murdered, I am about 375 times as concerned about renegade Muslims if only based on 9/11. We are talking about different leagues here. Muslims fanatics have killed exponentially more than Christian fanatics not even considering there are many fewer Muslims in the US. Also, according to the CDC, in just 2011, 730,000 living fetuses became killed fetuses too if you want to work that into your equation.

[aj3647]

Then go ask them. That's not unreasonable. After all, a total of eight abortion industry workers have died in the US in the last 22 years because of anti-abortion violence. However, in just the 9/11 attack, religiously inspired Muslims killed about 3,000 for comparison. So while I share your legitimate concern over the eight abortion employees who were murdered, I am about 375 times as concerned about renegade Muslims if only based on 9/11. We are talking about different leagues here. Muslims fanatics have killed exponentially more than Christian fanatics not even considering there are many fewer Muslims in the US. Also, according to the CDC, in just 2011, 730,000 living fetuses became killed fetuses too if you want to work that into your equation.

Ah, I see you missed the sarcasm in my post. Not that I'm surprised. Also, good for you for adding in that last line to get one not-so-subtle justification in for why YOUR religion's terrorists have a "good reason" to do what they do.

Also if you want to play the numbers game, how many innocent Muslims civilians have been killed as "collateral damage" in U.S. drone strikes or other military operations in the War on Terror in the past 14 years? I'll give you a hint, it's considerably higher than the death toll on 9/11... But then again, when your chosen side kills civilians, it's somehow OK because you've got a good reason for it.

FYI, a Planned Parenthood clinic was firebombed in Washington State just this past Friday. Your double standard is blatant and abhorrent. But it's ultimately irrelevant. Your bigotry won't stop a single mosque from being built. You wish the Muslims to leave, but they aren't going to listen to you. Shit in one hand and wish in the other and see which fills up first.

[oladub]

Ah, I see you missed the sarcasm in my post. Not that I'm surprised. Also, good for you for adding in that last line to get one not-so-subtle justification in for why YOUR religion's terrorists have a "good reason" to do what they do.

Also if you want to play the numbers game, how many innocent Muslims civilians have been killed as "collateral damage" in U.S. drone strikes or other military operations in the War on Terror in the past 14 years? I'll give you a hint, it's considerably higher than the death toll on 9/11... But then again, when your chosen side kills civilians, it's somehow OK because you've got a good reason for it.

FYI, a Planned Parenthood clinic was firebombed in Washington State just this past Friday. Your double standard is blatant and abhorrent. But it's ultimately irrelevant. Your bigotry won't stop a single mosque from being built. You wish the Muslims to leave, but they aren't going to listen to you. Shit in one hand and wish in the other and see which fills up first.

No I didn't miss your attempt at trying to be clever but your attempt at comparing 8 deaths caused by fanatic Christians who violated their religion vs. 3,000 9/11 deaths caused by fanatic Muslims who emulated their warlord prophet was lame. Since you brought up the 8 deaths of abortion personnel it only made sense to bring up what they did for a living. Deal with that as you wish. Being somewhat libertarian, I support the right of women to kill their fetuses. Sometimes there is good reason to do so and it is for them, not me, to decide. If you read my previous posts, I was also for the right of the applicants to build a mosque under the Second Amendment's protection of the freedom of religion. Don't get me mixed up with bigoted folks who kill abortionists and cartoonists and want to impose abortion and blasphemy laws as an alternative to the secular rule of law and the Second Amendment. I didn't ask for Muslims to leave but rather expressed a desire to stop importing so many until Muslim violence dies down just as we had temporary quotas on Japanese, German, and Soviet citizens while conflict raged with them. You didn't mention if the bombed Planned Parenthood office resulted in more deaths. Are we up passed 8 deaths in 22 years now? You were also off base in comparing bombing deaths in Iraq with 9/11. The 3,000 killings in 9/11 were done with religious motivation like those 8 abortionist murders. I didn't vote for either Bush or Obama and opposed the Iraq war which had non-religeous motivations. I did, however, support the initial strike against the Taliban and Al Queda in Afghanistan and attempts, apparently successful, at getting Osama.

CORRECTION edit: Both places where the Second Amendment was mentioned should read "First Amendment" which has to do with freedom of religion and speech.

[aj3647]

If you read my previous posts, I was also for the right of the applicants to build a mosque under the Second Amendment's protection of the freedom of religion. Don't get me mixed up with bigoted folks who kill abortionists and cartoonists and want to impose abortion and blasphemy laws as an alternative to the secular rule of law and the Second Amendment.

What does the Second Amendment have to do with any of that??? I don't recall any wording in the Second Amendment referring to religion.

Also, you do realize that the way we treated Japanese-Americans during WWII is not looked upon today as being ethical, moral, rational, or right. That it is universally regarded as being one of the darkest moments of American history, extremely racist, and a black eye for America? That you seemingly refer to that historical example as something to be repeated in the 21st century as a justification for "keeping Muslims out" is rather frightening.

[SDCC]

Also if you want to play the numbers game, how many innocent Muslims civilians have been killed as "collateral damage" in U.S. drone strikes or other military operations in the War on Terror in the past 14 years? I'll give you a hint, it's considerably higher than the death toll on 9/11... But then again, when your chosen side kills civilians, it's somehow OK because you've got a good reason for it.

If the religious zealots stopped using woman and children as human shields; a documented and well known fact. Jihadists hiding [[cowering) behind woman and children thinking that will protect them is but another one of their fundamentalist misguided concepts.

[SDCC]

Also, you do realize that the way we treated Japanese-Americans during WWII is not looked upon today as being ethical, moral, rational, or right. That it is universally regarded as being one of the darkest moments of American history, extremely racist, and a black eye for America? That you seemingly refer to that historical example as something to be repeated in the 21st century as a justification for "keeping Muslims out" is rather frightening.

And you got the nerve to bring up the Empire of Japan? The most fanatical, suicidal, brutal enemy American serviceman have ever faced in their history.

[oladub]

What does the Second Amendment have to do with any of that??? I don't recall any wording in the Second Amendment referring to religion.

Also, you do realize that the way we treated Japanese-Americans during WWII is not looked upon today as being ethical, moral, rational, or right. That it is universally regarded as being one of the darkest moments of American history, extremely racist, and a black eye for America? That you seemingly refer to that historical example as something to be repeated in the 21st century as a justification for "keeping Muslims out" is rather frightening.

You are right. I meant 1st Amendment, not Second Amendment. I will go back and change that and so note.

Your mention of treatment of Japanese Americans is getting far afield. I wasn't alive then. Japanese American citizens shouldn't have been put in prison camps by FDR but he didn't put them there for religious reasons. We were discussing the 8 abortion employees killed by Christian extremists and the 3,000 9/11 victims of Muslim extremists. I think it was prudent policy to curtail Japanese immigration during those years though. Now we trade with Japan and they are our ally. Perhaps, some day the religious savagery will subside in the Muslim world too. I'm all about hope.

[Wesley Mouch]

...Also if you want to play the numbers game, how many innocent Muslims civilians have been killed as "collateral damage" in U.S. drone strikes or other military operations in the War on Terror in the past 14 years? I'll give you a hint, it's considerably higher than the death toll on 9/11... But then again, when your chosen side kills civilians, it's somehow OK because you've got a good reason for it.
...snip...

The 'other side' intentionally takes children and civilians and uses them not so much as shields, but because they want them killed in the attack on their missile launching position. That is a war crime that you have ignored in your myopic view.

[G-DDT]

I would feel a lot better about new churches being built if the Christians building them publicly renounced anti-abortion violence. Why are "good" Christians always so silent when an abortion clinic gets attacked? Their silence implies that all Christians secretly support terrorism and I don't want a Christian terrorist church in my community.

I'll field a bit of that. Prior to the '70s, there were a lot of conservative Christians who actually advocated abortion [[especially if it limited the population of certain folks of certain races and low-income brackets-so, that was one thing they had in common with "liberal"-but-addresses-KKK rallies population control advocate Margaret Sanger). The formation of the Christian Coalition/Religious Right/Morale Majority [[and the push to get a civil rights hater like Reagan in office) pretended to be about abortion, rock music, prayer in school, evolution vs. Creationalism, etc.-but Randall Balmer was right, all those things were just hobby horses until the real furor was about Green vs. Connally [[this being right after a lot of furious busing battles America went through).

It was all about racial integration and legal "impositions" made on Bob Jones University [[who Lahaye couldn't help but be miffed about and defend implicitly in his long-since covered-up book "The Coming Peace in the Middle East") and Charles Stanley ministries. Yet, they continued to lead folks into 12 years of Republicans in the White House [[and 8 more in the last decade) with this jive about it being everything else but what that intended it to be about-old American-style racism that would love to turn back the clock-way back.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5502785

I'm not crazy about abortion, but seeing as there is no direct prescriptive [[but only scant descriptive OT passages) injunctions and just seeing how many anti-abortionists carry themselves in such a transgressive manner-I choose to not be involved with a cause that will never be resolved and only best serves to distract from real concerns [[the ones the Bible does provide direct prescriptive verses about-like aid to the poor, or calls to peace, or to benefiting the workers, etc.).

Randall Terry of Operation Save America [[or Project life) not only stated many times that doctors performing abortions should be executed [[also said voting for Clinton was "to sin against God"-don't seem to ever come across that verse in my studies) but I find the words he gave to an Indiana congregation most disturbing "I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you.-I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good." Clearly not representing God and core Christian beliefs.

Also, I never liked when any organization used children as a shield for anything. I don't care if it's for Deeper Life scammers "for the poor", or guys who got their children out at 10p. on the Riverfront for Jazzfest selling "school candy", or people "bravely" dragging their kids to protest Terry Schiavo by sending them in with food [[yeah, through a tube?!!) only to get turned away or arrested [[yeah, I didn't hear "hunger strike" through that media fracas-that would be asking for an effective means by way of self-sacrifice and denying ones ingrained consumer tendencies. Yet, hey! I guess they didn't want it to be all that effective-just loud-they wanted a martyr for their "take back America" cause.). I even hate it when commercials [[or stupid made-for-TV drama intros) give children clunky unchild-like dialogue to recite [[usually in a croaky, weary vocal fry).

[G-DDT]

Besides, if noone wants to be "caught dead" at any house of worship, you don't have to. Just call this number 1 [[800) THIS IS LEGAL and stay on the line. It's should still be active.

It's worth it.

Call now.

[[especially if you are rich)

[EastsideAl]

And you got the nerve to bring up the Empire of Japan? The most fanatical, suicidal, brutal enemy American serviceman have ever faced in their history.

Did aj say anything about the Empire of Japan? He/she brought up the internment of Japanese-Americans, which is quite a different thing, and which our own government has now admitted was wrong. The internment, along with the mass confiscation of property, was certainly unconstitutional, and a dark chapter in our history. Rendered all the more tragic by the hard work and sacrifices of so many Japanese-American servicemen in WWII, fighting and dying while their families were being held under armed guard behind barbed wire in the desert.