Sterling Heights Mosque Controversy

[jcole]

That area is Chaldean [[Christian), not "Arabic". The Arab Muslim community is not that large in that part of Metro Detroit.

Most Middle Eastern residents of Metro Detroit are Christian, hence the easy integration. We don't have issues like that of Western Europe largely because of this difference.

And most of those businesses have lighted signs written in Arabic in their windows. As well as menus, etc.

[Scottathew]

One thing I've noticed about some of my Christian neighbors of middle-eastern decent really, really dislike other people of middle-eastern decent, especially if they're Muslims. I've even had my Christian middle eastern neighbor emphatically tell me that my other Christian middle-eastern neighbor was a different kind of middle-eastern.

I frankly don't care what they believe. Mow your lawn, be friendly, come over for a BBQ, it all matters not to me.

I wouldn't be surprised if most people are opposed to this because they don't want Muslims to have a place to worship in their community. By building a mosque it means that the area will be more desirable for Muslims and it will increase the percentage of Muslims in the area.

Sadly, racism and discrimination based on faith do exist. The best I can do it raise my kids not to be a part of it and try to sway the opinions of others.

[Spartan]

Since the article is pretty vague, can anyone tell me where they want to build it? Next to the fire station? In the lot along Davison near Hatherly?

[1953]

I hate that I have to hear the call to prayer where I live, and I wish Islam would go away.

1953

[jcole]

I hate that I have to hear the call to prayer where I live, and I wish Islam would go away.

1953

And I hated getting woke up by the 6am Angelus bells; and I was Catholic

[dtowncitylover]

Since the article is pretty vague, can anyone tell me where they want to build it? Next to the fire station? In the lot along Davison near Hatherly?

I think it's the lot at Davison and 15 Mile.

I love the parking spaces concern though. What a stupid comment. Shrine at 12 and Woodward has room for 3,000 people but that doesn't mean it has spaces for 3,000 people! Even before the convent came down there wasn't that many.

This center to me sounds almost like a church mission because it's only going to be open for Friday prayers and during Ramadan. It's not even a full-fledged mosque with prayers every day and 5x a day.

"I have teenage drivers in my family and fear for their safety," said Gates. "If it was a Catholic church, I would feel the same way." WHAT DOES THIS EVEN MEAN?! Does she not let her teenage drivers go near malls on Saturday? Drive on Woodward?

[EastsideAl]

An outdated and ignorant post based on the current demographics of Sterling Heights.

Perhaps, and the mosque would be a sign of that, although nothing about trying to keep it out due to being in a "residential Catholic community" gives me any hope that things are changing all that quickly or willingly.

I will admit to never having been back to that lovely community, except to pass through as quickly as possible, after a black friend of mine and I were pulled over for "unnecessary driving" while looking for a friend's house, we were both laid face down on the pavement while my car was trashed [[er, "searched"). Then my friend, an active duty U.S. Marine with valid leave orders, was detained and kept handcuffed to a wall in the police station for over 5 hours while they "checked for warrants" and confirmed his orders with military authorities.

[FormerEastsider]

One thing I've noticed about some of my Christian neighbors of middle-eastern decent really, really dislike other people of middle-eastern decent, especially if they're Muslims. I've even had my Christian middle eastern neighbor emphatically tell me that my other Christian middle-eastern neighbor was a different kind of middle-eastern.

I frankly don't care what they believe. Mow your lawn, be friendly, come over for a BBQ, it all matters not to me.

I wouldn't be surprised if most people are opposed to this because they don't want Muslims to have a place to worship in their community. By building a mosque it means that the area will be more desirable for Muslims and it will increase the percentage of Muslims in the area.

Sadly, racism and discrimination based on faith do exist. The best I can do it raise my kids not to be a part of it and try to sway the opinions of others.

I can't believe how people whizzed by this post without one single comment about it. People would rather continue to rant about a mosque being built in a certain area than to recognize and acknowledge the truth when they read it.

[Wesley Mouch]

In Sterling Heights there is a Sikh Temple on Dequindre Rd. north of 14 Mile. It's not harming anyone. Let the Muslims put their mosque there. Muslim communities Sterling Heights is growing and contributing their businesses to their communities. Those racist fools just want a "WHITE'S ONLY" community. It's not going to happen. I wonder what will happen if a black church was building in Sterling Heights?

There was time when WHITES didn't consider Chaldeans white.

There is progress in the world. Funny, Arab immigrants want to discriminate against Muslim immigrants. We've achieved diverse multiculturalism.

[Bham1982]

One thing I've noticed about some of my Christian neighbors of middle-eastern decent really, really dislike other people of middle-eastern decent, especially if they're Muslims. I've even had my Christian middle eastern neighbor emphatically tell me that my other Christian middle-eastern neighbor was a different kind of middle-eastern.

You know why the West has so many Middle Eastern Christians, right?

They are being slaughtered left and right in the Middle East. There probably won't be a Christian community in the Middle East in a generation or two. Just like the Jews were eliminated from the Middle East once Islamic states took over, Christianity is next. And the smaller religious minorities [[Druze, Yazidi, Bahai, Zoroastrian, etc.) are probably all doomed too.

Even formerly majority Christian states like Lebanon are dominated by Muslims now, and the remaining Christians are all trying to get the hell out.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/26/ma...ddle-east.html

[janesback]

its possible that the individuals protesting are apprehensive about their safety in the future.....Ive been to London and Paris and was warned to stay away from zones [[ Zones Urband Sensibles) that surround mosques as well as to stay out of predominantly Muslim areas.......sorry, people don't want to be attacked in unsafe areas and perhaps foresee future problems that will arise.............look at what is happening over in France with the new Muslim immigrants.......

This same problem arose in New York a few years ago next to the World Trade Center when a mosque was proposed to be built in that area.........local police, firemen, citizens , fmaily of people killed as well as survivors of 9/11 protested against the plan and I didn't see a specific race protesting........just the citizens of New York.......
watch it and make your own assumptions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQyRvxTqjRw

[southen]

its possible that the individuals protesting are apprehensive about their safety in the future.....Ive been to London and Paris and was warned to stay away from zones [[ Zones Urband Sensibles) that surround mosques as well as to stay out of predominantly Muslim areas.......sorry, people don't want to be attacked in unsafe areas and perhaps foresee future problems that will arise.............look at what is happening over in France with the new Muslim immigrants.......

This same problem arose in New York a few years ago next to the World Trade Center when a mosque was proposed to be built in that area.........local police, firemen, citizens , fmaily of people killed as well as survivors of 9/11 protested against the plan and I didn't see a specific race protesting........just the citizens of New York.......
watch it and make your own assumptions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQyRvxTqjRw

It is still pure ignorance. Scared white christians just love freedom and the constitution unless it is something that frightens them due to their own sheltered ignorance. Then the hell with those things, I dont want the "different" people anywhere near me.

New York, Paris, London, Sterling Heights... Yup. They are infiltrating to attack OR looking for a place to worship, flip a coin.

[RaumVogel]

It is hard to give equal rights to a religion that doesn't embrace it.People can say what they want,but it's hard to believe that "Islam" is a tolerant religion after watching a video like that.As long as neighborhoods push out "others",I see no real end to racial division.I hear the argument of "They are just a few"...but the inhabitants of those neighborhoods weren't doing anything to stop the violence.
Here's another interesting bit I found out about what's going on in France [[Ironic,since Detroit was originally French. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Le_Pen
"Marine Le Pen stirred up controversy during the internal campaign. During a speech to the party faithful in Lyon on 10 December 2010, she said that the weekly illegal blocking of public streets and squares in multiple French cities [[notably the rue Myrha in the 18th arrondissement of Paris) for Muslim prayers was comparable with an occupation of parts of French territory. Specifically, Le Pen said:

For those who want to talk a lot about World War II, if it's about occupation, then we could also talk about it [[Muslim prayers in the streets), because that is occupation of territory. ...It is an occupation of sections of the territory, of districts in which religious laws apply. ... There are of course no tanks, there are no soldiers, but it is nevertheless an occupation and it weighs heavily on local residents.^[37]"

[EastsideAl]

This same problem arose in New York a few years ago next to the World Trade Center when a mosque was proposed to be built in that area.........local police, firemen, citizens , fmaily of people killed as well as survivors of 9/11 protested against the plan and I didn't see a specific race protesting........just the citizens of New York.......
watch it and make your own assumptions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQyRvxTqjRw

There were no "problems" in New York, other than those stirred up by anti-Muslim protesters. No one was attacked, no one was endangered, business went on as usual in the surrounding blocks. The whole thing was tempest in a teapot whipped up by an idiotic right-wing media panic.

So, I take it you don't go to Dearborn because of your fears for your "safety"?

[EastsideAl]

"Marine Le Pen stirred up controversy during the internal campaign. During a speech to the party faithful in Lyon on 10 December 2010, she said that the weekly illegal blocking of public streets and squares in multiple French cities [[notably the rue Myrha in the 18th arrondissement of Paris) for Muslim prayers was comparable with an occupation of parts of French territory. Specifically, Le Pen said:

For those who want to talk a lot about World War II, if it's about occupation, then we could also talk about it [[Muslim prayers in the streets), because that is occupation of territory. ...It is an occupation of sections of the territory, of districts in which religious laws apply. ... There are of course no tanks, there are no soldiers, but it is nevertheless an occupation and it weighs heavily on local residents.^[37]"

Quoting Marine LePen now are we? What's next, David Duke? Debbie Schlussel?

[Wesley Mouch]

You know why the West has so many Middle Eastern Christians, right?

They are being slaughtered left and right in the Middle East. There probably won't be a Christian community in the Middle East in a generation or two. Just like the Jews were eliminated from the Middle East once Islamic states took over, Christianity is next. And the smaller religious minorities [[Druze, Yazidi, Bahai, Zoroastrian, etc.) are probably all doomed too.

Even formerly majority Christian states like Lebanon are dominated by Muslims now, and the remaining Christians are all trying to get the hell out.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/26/ma...ddle-east.html

This is an extremely important point.

IMO, the problem is that we have a deserved, but inappropriately high level of respect for Islam -- and little appreciation for its victims.

The Chaldeans are very much victims of radical Islam.

Like the Jews, they just aren't today's victims du jour.

[janesback]

quote from Eastside Al............"So, I take it you don't go to Dearborn because of your fears for your "safety"?

Eastside Al......actually, as a woman, I do have fears. Fear for my safety and for the most, if an area is deemed unsafe, I try to avoid the area....as a woman and a gay woman I have been the target of attack before and assume it could happen again

I never stated Dearborn was unsafe, I thought we were talking about Sterling Heights? I also am aware that unsafe areas exist everywhere, in Detroit, in Michigan, in the US, etc.and yes, in Europe

Safe areas sometimes prove to be a myth. The policeman who was shot in Houston's NW side never expected a worthless coward to walk up behind him and execute him last Friday nite. He was in a relatively safe area, and Eastside, he was wearing a gun an uniform.
I would expect him to be the last person to be attacked by his appearance alone...I hope this clears things up for you in regards to myself and keeping myself safe........Im not sure I know of any area that is safe unless you have insight

take care and have a nice day..........Jane

[Patrick]

Chaldeans are Arabs, speak Arabic and are from Iraq. That they happen to be Christians doesn't change that anymore than Palestinian Christians in Bethlehem are Arabs.

Not sure I agree on that one in its entirety. The ME is relatively diverse and using the word "Arab" is more of a convenient moniker used in the West than anything else. My Lebanese relatives in Trablous [[Tripoli) have stated that they would rather be called Phoenician. My wife's Cairo-based family is rather conflicted on the term. On one hand, Nasser's Pan-Arabism brought out the pride in being called "Arab" by others. I do know that many Egyptians prefer to be called African before Arab. Most people I have met in the ME consider the Gulfies to be the "real" Arabs.

I will say that just because one speaks Arabic, doesn't make them an Arab. Are Venezuelans considered Spanish because of the same language? Are Brazilians considered Portuguese? Using the term "Arab" is really an innocent and easy way to describe a large group of people from a certain part of the world.

[Patrick]

This is an extremely important point.

IMO, the problem is that we have a deserved, but inappropriately high level of respect for Islam -- and little appreciation for its victims.

The Chaldeans are very much victims of radical Islam.

Like the Jews, they just aren't today's victims du jour.

Chaldeans/Assyrians have been geopolitical pawns for centuries. If you think ISIL is bad, take a look at what the Ottomans did to them from about 1912 to 1924 ish. Read up on the Assyrian Sayfo.

[Hermod]

Then there is this view:

https://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=m...=ahab+the+arab

[bust]

its possible that the individuals protesting are apprehensive about their safety in the future.....Ive been to London and Paris and was warned to stay away from zones [[ Zones Urband Sensibles) that surround mosques as well as to stay out of predominantly Muslim areas.......sorry, people don't want to be attacked in unsafe areas and perhaps foresee future problems that will arise.............look at what is happening over in France with the new Muslim immigrants.......

This same problem arose in New York a few years ago next to the World Trade Center when a mosque was proposed to be built in that area.........local police, firemen, citizens , fmaily of people killed as well as survivors of 9/11 protested against the plan and I didn't see a specific race protesting........just the citizens of New York.......
watch it and make your own assumptions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQyRvxTqjRw

You are perpetuating racist lies.

1) Muslim No-Go Zones have been totally debunked. CBN can NOT be trusted:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/nogozones.asp
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...nogo-zone-myth
http://www.theatlantic.com/internati...mments/384656/

…And a funny one, from the Daily Show. It's hard to believe Fox apologized, repeatedly, for claiming Muslim no-go zones existed:
http://mediamatters.org/video/2015/0...ws-apol/202210

Even Dearborn was cited as a “no-go zone”, something Dearborn's Mayor O'Reilly vehemently denied:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...americans.html

2) The mosque that was proposed near the World Trade Center was forcefully defended by everyone from Mayor Bloomberg:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/04/ny.../04mosque.html

To the Speaker of New York's City Council, to NYC's Representative Nadler:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...mber-elections

To many others I haven't had time to research.

It won the support of the local community board 29 to 1:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/mosque-plan...ry?id=10747570

And it was unanimously approved by the NYC Historic Commission, which removed what was perhaps the biggest legal obstacle, since constructing it required demolishing an old building:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/04/opinion/04wed1.html

Many of the families of 9/11 victims opposed it, but many supported it too:
http://gawker.com/5614220/not-all-91...-cordoba-house

The strongest opposition in the city came from ordinary New Yorkers, who where understandably still dealing with hatred and strong emotions, and some who get their news from places like Fox, CBN, and talk radio too. Republicans were much more opposed than Democrats. People from Manhattan were most supportive. People from Staten Island by far the least. If you're from New York, these facts should not surprise you:
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...ticle-1.467429

And if you're from New York, you also won't be surprised people from outside New York were significantly more opposed than were New Yorkers, the direct victims of the attack:
http://wtcmuslimcenter.procon.org/

People have been influenced by hate groups like “Stop the Islamization of America” who spend a lot of money spreading islamophobia in ads and other shenanigans:
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1945174

The Jewish Anti Defamation League calls the group “conspiratorial” and “anti-Muslim”:
http://www.adl.org/civil-rights/disc...f-america.html

The Southern Poverty Law Center says worse:
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-h.../pamela-geller

Yet their message keeps getting picked up, again and again.

And do you know how easy it is to find videos online of people, of every ethnicity, opening a can of whoop ass on some innocent victim? Do you think a few cherry-picked videos showing Arabs as the perpetrators proves anything? What about the hooligans and lynch mobs from other ethnicities who do the same and worse? Are you really so foolish to think only Muslims deserve blame? Or that a small minority represents the whole?

It is hard to give equal rights to a religion that doesn't embrace it.People can say what they want,but it's hard to believe that "Islam" is a tolerant religion after watching a video like that.As long as neighborhoods push out "others",I see no real end to racial division.I hear the argument of "They are just a few"...but the inhabitants of those neighborhoods weren't doing anything to stop the violence.
Here's another interesting bit I found out about what's going on in France [[Ironic,since Detroit was originally French. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Le_Pen
"Marine Le Pen stirred up controversy during the internal campaign. During a speech to the party faithful in Lyon on 10 December 2010, she said that the weekly illegal blocking of public streets and squares in multiple French cities [[notably the rue Myrha in the 18th arrondissement of Paris) for Muslim prayers was comparable with an occupation of parts of French territory. Specifically, Le Pen said:
For those who want to talk a lot about World War II, if it's about occupation, then we could also talk about it [[Muslim prayers in the streets), because that is occupation of territory. ...It is an occupation of sections of the territory, of districts in which religious laws apply. ... There are of course no tanks, there are no soldiers, but it is nevertheless an occupation and it weighs heavily on local residents.[37]"

1) Islam is of course not always intolerant.

2) Do I really have to tell you that Islam is not the only religion sometimes used as an excuse for intolerance? Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, even Buddhism has sometimes been used to eliminate entire populations and dominate territory too. Have you heard about the Inquisition? The Crusades? Euro-American Slavery? Westward expansion? "White man's burden"? Are you aware of the history of violence against Muslims in India? Have you even heard of the Rohingya? And see what I said about internet videos and whoop ass. Few of the perpetrators you'll find are Arab. We should not be selective in opposing intolerance and xenophobia. We should stop it everywhere it exists.

3) Are you really supporting the argument of a neo-fascist like Le Pen?

The Brain Drain:

Lots of people think Michigan is experiencing a brain drain because of the economy. Racism is another huge factor. It's not just a problem in the South; Michigan is distressingly afflicted by it too. There are jobs in Michigan for smart people. And there are many other reasons to live there. But most smart people prefer not to live where intolerance is a major problem, and avoid those places when they can.

Personal Note:

I worked adjacent to the World Trade Center when it was attacked. I experienced it. For several weeks after I was allowed to return to work, it required a police escort. I breathed the stench of flames and fuel and hydraulic fluids. Asbestos stung my eyes and nose.

And I regret I feel the need to say this, but before anyone jumps to an erroneous conclusion, I'm neither Arab nor Muslim.

P.S.: Knowing how bad of a problem is racism in the Detroit Metro area, I've avoided the topic on these forums until now. It's with hesitation I post these thoughts at all. Don't be surprised if they're my last words on the topic. I don't have time for a debate, and have no desire to be drawn into one. Besides, this post is so long I've said enough already. Say what you will in response.

Peace and love.

[Bobl]

"All religion is bunk." Henry Ford.
Let them build churches, mosques, temples, synagogues anywhere that local zoning permits. Require that they obey nuisance, noise, and traffic laws and regulations. Then, tax them, just as homeowners and businesses are taxed.

[Wesley Mouch]

My understanding is that Chaldeans are not just Christian but Catholic. I was once told they were one of the early adherents to Catholicism -- while Rome was still pagan.

[bust]

"All religion is bunk." Henry Ford.
Let them build churches, mosques, temples, synagogues anywhere that local zoning permits. Require that they obey nuisance, noise, and traffic laws and regulations. Then, tax them, just as homeowners and businesses are taxed.

Big +1. I fully support freedom of religion, but religions should not be exempt from the social responsibilities the rest of us honor [[or at least are bound to submit).

[RaumVogel]

Bust I feel I need to answer your points 2. and 3. I'm very aware of religious intolerances in history. A few greedy Christians found it profitable to claim natives were "heathens",thus wiping most of them out and possessing their lands. We are much more tolerant today.Unfortunately,many extreme Muslims are using the "Heathen" thing to murder anyone who doesn't agree with their ways.This is going to make people paranoid of radical elements in the local community.
As for 3. I just posted that to show that the French are very weary of "Muslim only" areas and that some of this anti immigrant sentiment is contributing to the fact that her party is the 3rd strongest in France right now.Just because I reference someone does not mean I agree with her views.