Sterling Heights Mosque Controversy

[animatedmartian]

Both Sterling Heights and Warren have local ordinances that prohibit excessive noise.

Hamtramck has the same sort of ordinances as well though they also have maximum limits on the noise decibels that can be allowed for properties outside of the property from which the sound source is coming from. The maximum is about 60-70 dbs or just about around the typical noise for a busy urban street. Anyone complaining about the noise from a mosque in Hamtramck obviously needs to move to a more suburban area.

[dtowncitylover]

I thought this mosque was only to be used for Friday prayers and Ramadan. So once a week or for a month. It's not like call to prayers to going to be 5x a day, 365 blaring across Maple and Ryan. You people really love to jump to the worse. Most Muslims I know don't pray five times a day because they are working or aren't that religious; at most they just go to Friday prayers. If they do, they print out a prayer timetables [[yes, they exists) and go pray in private when the time comes.

And while I get people don't like "noise", frankly whatever that means because unless you grew up in the middle of nowhere, we live in a major metro area with sirens, people, traffic, NOISE, all around us, but the Islamic Call to Prayer is actually a very beautiful testament of faith and quasi-song.​​​

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

I thought this mosque was only to be used for Friday prayers and Ramadan. So once a week or for a month. It's not like call to prayers to going to be 5x a day, 365 blaring across Maple and Ryan. You people really love to jump to the worse. Most Muslims I know don't pray five times a day because they are working or aren't that religious; at most they just go to Friday prayers. If they do, they print out a prayer timetables [[yes, they exists) and go pray in private when the time comes.

And while I get people don't like "noise", frankly whatever that means because unless you grew up in the middle of nowhere, we live in a major metro area with sirens, people, traffic, NOISE, all around us, but the Islamic Call to Prayer is actually a very beautiful testament of faith and quasi-song.​​​

Yes, but those Friday prayers will really impact the local traffic, as everyone is at home Friday between 12 and 2 pm. Oh wait, perhaps they are not.....

[kathy2trips]

This is true. We still have a lot of family friends of Lebanese and Syrian heritage. The Mediterranean cultures in Detroit, including Greek and Italian have a long-standing friendship based on shared traditions. For example, we all ate stuffed grape leaves! Mmmm, good!

[Wesley Mouch]

...snip...And while I get people don't like "noise", frankly whatever that means because unless you grew up in the middle of nowhere, we live in a major metro area with sirens, people, traffic, NOISE, all around us, but the Islamic Call to Prayer is actually a very beautiful testament of faith and quasi-song.​​​

It is very beautiful. I enjoyed hearing it sung without amplification by a neighbor in Hamtramck years back.

The beauty of the prayer does not make amplification good public policy.

I recall an article in the Times about the cacophony in Riyad, but couldn't find it. But here's Wikipedia's opening paragraph about loudspeakers in Mosques that hints at why allowing this is bad public policy.

Loudspeakers were invented in the early 1900s, and they were introduced in mosques in the 1930s, where they are used for the adhan [["call to prayer"),^[1] and sometimes for khutbah [[sermons).

Outdoor loudspeakers, usually mounted on tall minarets, are used five times a day for the call to prayer, sometimes starting as early as 4 a.m. Some mosques have loudspeakers that are powerful enough to be heard as far as 5 km [[3 mi) away.^[2] In areas where more than one mosque is present, the loudspeaker sounds overlap one another,^[3] especially in the early morning when sounds are more clearly heard. Loudspeakers are sometimes also used inside mosques to deliver sermons or for prayer.

[detroitsgwenivere]

I've got to ask this. How old are you folks? Can I assume that the majority of the posters on this thread are over 40? Maybe 50?

I'm asking because I notice when arguing about faith issues there tends to be a certain age demographic that seems to get the most... vocal, about their fears of "the other." Generally speaking of course.

[Scottathew]

I've got to ask this. How old are you folks? Can I assume that the majority of the posters on this thread are over 40? Maybe 50?

I'm asking because I notice when arguing about faith issues there tends to be a certain age demographic that seems to get the most... vocal, about their fears of "the other." Generally speaking of course.

I'll indulge you... :-)

I'm in my early 30's.

[Jimaz]

This looks like a fun series of books: xenophobes.com.

Watch out for that Xeno!

[G-DDT]

Makes me curious... Has there ever been a protest against the construction of a Christian church in Metro Detroit?

Off the top of my head I can't.

I'm going to have to agree with that observation.

Also, this whole thing reminds me very much of an incident brewing over five years ago when Livonia was to have a Walmarts built within it's borders. Not only do I remember quite well the uproar, but I have saved a string of printed news reports that demonstrated the progression of the reporting of the event: the first concern brought up was racism and having a Walmarts would bring blacks to Livonia, then folks at town hall meetings were out front saying "That this is not about racism.", before going into anything else about the matter [[who? what? imagine walking into that one. It's much like the shabby, harried stranger who comes up to you and the first thing they say in a wild and exaggerated manner is "Okay, okay I'm not crazy. That's the first thing you gotta know."), then following news reports made no more mention of racism, as it seemed everybody in an uproar grabbed at any straw [[much like a lot of Obama's more disingenuous critics who will sputter about anything except what it is that really bothers them about his presence in office) from the noise, to the parking, to the rowdy Walmarts style clientele to prove their dismay.

Well, the Walmarts got built, and it's a Walmarts, but it's a whole heck of a lot better than a lot of the other ones out there.

So, what was the real big deal then about that, and what is the real big deal now about this for Sterling Heights to have a mosque.

[oladub]

Muslims have a much right to freedom of religion under the First Amendment as anyone else. I don't remember the Albanian mosque along I-94 in Harper Woods ever being a source of problems. The Rev. Phelps' church and the KKK are religious groups that get themselves in trouble for anything from disturbing the peace to lynchings. They too are free to speak out and maintain their freedom of religion but they have no right to hurt others. I am curious where the money is coming from to pay for this mosque. For instance, the Wahhabis spend money promoting a particularly intolerant branch of Islam. Sharia law conflicts with Constitutional law. If the people behind building this mosque would voluntarily make a gesture such as condemning Sharia law, perhaps that would reassure the locals that this mosque has little or nothing to do with ghastly news stories having to do with Muslims elsewhere.

Good Germans no doubt watered their lawns and loved their children too. Still, even the liberals of the time, back when they still recognized evil and had a sense of self-preservation, thought it prudent to limit immigration from turbulent places like Germany and Japan for a time. As mentioned, Muslims must be allowed to practice their religion peacefully as everyone else but Congress does have the power and duty to protect our shores until the storm has passed as it did in Germany, Japan, and Vietnam. I suspect that some protestors are confusing the religious liberty the Constitution demands in the US with what goes on mostly overseas from which the Constitution affords us protection.

[Hypestyles]

"if you build it, they will come." we'll see what happens. I hope that no violence occurs.

[Scottathew]

"if you build it, they will come." we'll see what happens. I hope that no violence occurs.

They're already here, living among us, peacefully. "They" are my friends and co-workers. "They" are tax paying citizens that have the same constitutional rights that we do.

[Wesley Mouch]

"if you build it, they will come." we'll see what happens. I hope that no violence occurs.

Why is violence concern. Has there been any mosque-related violence in Detroit?

[Scottathew]

Why is violence concern. Has there been any mosque-related violence in Detroit?

Even when Terry Jones tried to incite violence in Dearborn via displays of intolerant hatred, he was unable to.

[EastsideAl]

If the people behind building this mosque would voluntarily make a gesture such as condemning Sharia law, perhaps that would reassure the locals that this mosque has little or nothing to do with ghastly news stories having to do with Muslims elsewhere.

This shows a gross misunderstanding of what Sharia is, and how it fits into Muslim religious practice and religious communities [[an understandable error though, given the ridiculous faux-panic whipped up over "sharia law" on Fox News and other far-right-wing media). Would you ask a Christian community to condemn its own Canon Law? Would you ask a Jewish community to condemn Halakha?

[oladub]

Actually, I used wikipedia as a neutral source. Your "Faux" fantasy presumptions are misplaced. I wouldn't ask a Christian community to condemn Canon Law but then why would I? I have never heard of any movement seeking to replace constitutional law with Canon Law. What I wrote was, "If the people behind building this mosque would voluntarily make a gesture such as condemning Sharia law, perhaps that would reassure the locals that this mosque has little or nothing to do with ghastly news stories having to do with Muslims elsewhere." I was trying to get away from phony zoning attempts used to discriminate against building mosques. Tomorrow is the anniversary of one set of Muslims killing thousands of Americans. Maybe I am not the only Americans who remembers this distasteful event precipitated by Islamic beliefs. So really, what is wrong with the people wanting to build this mosque reaching out to reassure their nervous neighbors that no they abhor those slivers of Islam all over the world who do such things...if they do?
from Wikipedia- "Sharia or sharia law is the Islamic legal system derived from the religious precepts of Islam, particularly the Quranand the Hadith. The term sharia comes from the Arabic language term sharīʿah, which means a body of moral and religious law derived from religious prophecy, as opposed to human legislation." "The introduction of sharia is a longstanding goal for Islamist movements globally, including in Western countries""Sharia courts treat women and men as unequal, with Muslim woman's life and blood-money compensation sentence as half as that of a Muslim man's life. Sharia also treats Muslims and non-Muslims as unequal in the sentencing process." "The European Court of Human Rights determined that "sharia is incompatible with the fundamental principles of democracy". The article goes on but you get the drift. Sharia Law is incompatible with democracy and constitutional governance. Let's not pretend that Islam hasn't any warts on the anniversary of 9/11. Remember, I'm on the side of liberty allowing this mosque to be built. My difference with you might be that I'm not sugar coating Islam or forgetting 9/11.

[Bham1982]

So, what was the real big deal then about that, and what is the real big deal now about this for Sterling Heights to have a mosque.

Are you a homeowner? Probably not.

Most homeowners have the majority of their wealth tied up in their homes. Livonia is an inner-ring suburb and Walmart attracts hoodrats. If I was living in Livonia I sure as hell wouldn't want a nearby Walmart because it would likely lower property values. Even the Walmarts out in Novi, Rochester Hills and Troy are ghetto/trashy.

And that part of Livonia has declined since the Walmart was built, so the protesters were correct in their predictions.

And it isn't race per se. A 90% black neighborhood in Southfield vehemently protested a new Walmart a few years ago, and they were able to stop the project. They knew Walmart attracts crappy clientele.

[dtowncitylover]

Even the Walmarts out in Novi, Rochester Hills and Troy are ghetto/trashy.

It seems for a person who doesn't want anything to do with Walmart, it looks like you've visited alot of them. Or are they "ghetto/trashy" because you have a preconceived notion/stereotype of who shops at Walmart?

And there's two Walmarts in Livonia, so have both neighborhoods seen decline? Have you noticed decline in Troy, Rochester Hills, or Novi? [[Probably not because that would be counter your opinion in the superiority of suburbia).

And the Walmart planned for Southfield would have been at Telegraph and Southfield. Could you imagine another big box store there? [[Not only another, but the largest, most well known big box store) No, it would be insane because it's already clogged. It wasn't about the clientele, it was about traffic. News article below quotes a woman who wouldn't mind a Walmart, but not on the corner. The one below that mentions again the safety concerns increased traffic would've brought.

http://www.candgnews.com/news/plans-...and-southfield

http://www.mlive.com/business/detroi...for_metro.html

This mosque is not a Walmart Supercenter, it's gonna be a specially used building for Friday prayers and their high holiday. These people are nuts and are just masking their ignorance about Islam for "traffic concerns".

[Hypestyles]

Why is violence concern. Has there been any mosque-related violence in Detroit?

There will be, eventually, The nuts are finally going to come out. events like this help to spark it.

[animatedmartian]

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...sion/72036030/

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...cted/72037002/

Sterling Heights rejects mosque on the basis that it's too tall for the area [[roughly 6 stories). The Muslims proposing the mosque are in favor of reducing the size of the mosque, though they would have to resubmit a new proposal.

[Lowell]

Just saw video of a large vocal protest by Moslem-Americans in Sterling Heights.

This is not over.

[Danny]

Oh yes it is! I was a democratic decision from the Sterling Heights City Council. Building a mosque in a mostly Chaldean community. That don't mix. You can't even build a synagogue, a church or a Temple of Baphomet there. That area of 15 Mile Rd. near Mound is a residential area. They those Muslim want to build their baitful mosque. Do it anywhere in Van Dyke HWY! or any street zoned for businesses.

Christians are still winning the battle because they Jesus on their side.

[G-DDT]

Got a mosque here in Dearborn. It's nestled nicely amongst many other places of worship all coexisting here respectfully. No bombings here. No World Net Daily reporting "Christians being crucified" here. In fact traffic is just as it always has been around that area of Ford Rd. [[if anything they should remove the Chili's). What Arab American neighbors I do have are nicer to me than the petty, dour, racist busybodying voted-for-Hubbard veteran resident ones I got also around me.

[Danny]

Got a mosque here in Dearborn. It's nestled nicely amongst many other places of worship all coexisting here respectfully. No bombings here. No World Net Daily reporting "Christians being crucified" here. In fact traffic is just as it always has been around that area of Ford Rd. [[if anything they should remove the Chili's). What Arab American neighbors I do have are nicer to me than the petty, dour, racist busybodying voted-for-Hubbard veteran resident ones I got also around me.

They are some churches in Muslim community in Dearborn. In fact there are two black churches in Dearborn. One in Chase and Ford Rd. and the other near Schaefer Rd. south of Warren Rd. They even welcome their Muslim neighbors to worship with them.

[G-DDT]

because they Jesus on their side.

Yeah, I'm going to trust that you are wise [[as the Holy Scriptures define wisdom as bearing the trait of one who accepts reproof gracefully) enough to consider what I say here before you use garishly prideful and presumptuous "us vs. them" kind of language like that again:

I can site at the very least seven bible passages where it clearly states that God shows no partiality [[especially not to Pharisaic mindsets-the ones who think they are "in" with God and lack the necessary humility to see past the double-standard we all can easily tread across). God will save who God saves, and it's not for us to presume we know God's ways. Just as St. John states in his second and third letters [[last of the second chapter in the first letter, if you follow?) that anyone who follows and does what is righteous and good is of God.

It would help to know who and what the Samaritans meant in Jesus's time. Yet, the Samaritan did more than any "holy" and "separated" person would [[even if they were coming back from doing their priestly duties in Jerusalem-hence the importance of coming from Jerusalem in that parable) for a wounded-almost seemingly dead man by the side of a road. A Samaritan woman was given the right to find out where Jesus was coming from by the well. And it was a Samaritan who bothered to turn around and give thanks for being healed of his leprosy while his other freshly healed company just moved on. Any one can be a Samaritan in the eyes of today's Christian. They could be a Catholic in the eyes of a ultra-sectarian Protestant, or they can be a Jew, a Muslim, or a gay in the eyes of a xenophobic fundamentalist "Christian".

It would also help to understand what rage Jesus caused preaching in the synagogue in the fourth chapter of Luke. He was suggesting [[by example of historic accounts in scripture) that outsiders of Sidonian and Syrian regions [[most likely not Jews) were better in genuine faith and righteousness than the Widows and Lepers of the more "faithful" in Israel at that time.

Now I'm not going to get into debates about Soteriology-or what makes one "saved' or redeemed in God's eyes [[for yes, I know faith is ultimate, but faith without works is dead, and while you have time and resources on this Earth you better use them for good works just as he who has been given much will be asked will be asked all the more, etc. etc.)-or about assurance based presumptions some may have. All, I ask is that you temper your language carefully if you claim to be a "Man of God".