The wild, wild east...

[Dan Wesson]

I don't see The Gp's as being suburb any longer. It has become an enclave. An enclave with it's back to the wall of water.

[Gpwrangler]

^^^^^^^^^ like my math prof used to say "QED"

[Bham1982]

I like my news from reliable sources. If I wanted to find hyperbole or news with an agenda, that's really easy to find. Al and pr are two of the pillars of this forum. If they say it's improving, it's my belief that it is. Are we out of the woods? Not by a long shot. We have nothing but a lot more work to do but it would be nice if the haters and the people with their own agenda would just get out of the way.

LOL. So "reliable sources" aren't actual crime data. "Reliable sources" are random online Detroit fanboys who have been claiming Detroit is "getting better" since around 1960 or so.

The reality is that Detroit is, more or less, the most dangerous major U.S. city, and the East Side of Detroit is, more or less, the most dangerous part of the most dangerous city. That's what the actual crime stats indicate.

So it would be very odd to not hear evidence of gunshots on hot summer nights anywhere around the Eastside, unless the bad dudes are all using silencers or knives or something. You can't get worse than Eastside Detroit, at least not in the U.S.

Though I wouldn't be surprised if the immediate blocks closest to the Pointes have less gunfire than 20 years ago, simply because they're almost rural at this point.

[Bham1982]

Homes in Grosse Pointe are much nicer at a fraction of the price than what's available in Royal Oak, Birmingham, or exurbs like Novi -- to say nothing of New York or the Chicago area. Those are fine places too [[except exurbs aren't my thing), but for the money, and for a return on investment in today's market, Grosse Pointe seems a better buy than them all. Prices will rise as the city improves, and I'm optimistic about that. Likewise as younger generations, and their deeper appreciation of urbanity, draw them to neighborhoods that are closer in. For people who enjoy the city or work there but want great schools and safety there's nowhere closer. There are also practical, economic, and environmental reasons why metropolitan areas can't keep spreading unchecked.

It depends. The Pointes are a much better "value" than those other places if you want a home for life, and don't care about price appreciation. In that respect they may be the best buy in Metro Detroit. It's true that you get more for your money in the Pointes than somewhere like Novi or Northville or Royal Oak [[and the difference with Birmingham is completely ridiculous; the Pointes probably are about 40% as expensive apples to apples at this point). And the Pointes are beautiful, and deliver great schools and fantastic services.

But the Pointes are a terrible investment if you're looking for price appreciation. They have been the laggards of all the wealthy Metro Detroit suburbs. They have had the slowest price appreciation over time, probably because they're an island of prosperity at this point, and about 40 minutes from everything else in the metro area. There's no movie theater, no big box retail, no upscale retail, few restaurants, and sky high taxes.

In 1970, the Pointes were the richest and most expensive suburbs. In 2015 a 400k home in the Pointes will go for 1 million+ in Birmingham. That's a pretty dramatic swing in the region's wealth center.

[SyGolden48236]

There's no movie theater, no big box retail, no upscale retail, few restaurants, and sky high taxes.

The reason that there is no public movie theater or big box retail here is that we don't want them here.

Emagine wanted to build a theater in the Village a few years ago and that idea was quickly squashed. There is a very nice 2 screen movie theater in Windmill Pointe Park that shows first run movies and is open to residents only.

We don't want a Walmart, Kmart, Home Depot, Lowes, Meijer or other "big box" retail here. That is what Hall road or Big Beaver Road is for.

As far as restaurants, there are plenty of fine restaurants here. Marais, The Hill, DaEduardo, Antonio's, Rockefeller's to name a few.

As for taxes, the total millage for homestead property in G.P.F is 48.0095 mills [[2014 rate). The total for your beloved Birmingham is 45.2097 [[2014 rate), not a significant difference. Detroit's 2014 rate is 68.7896. Now, who has the "sky high" taxes again? We are more than happy to pay the taxes that we do in order to receive the superior city services and police protection that we receive.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ta...e_480472_7.pdf

And by the way, our home is appreciating nicely. But that does not matter too greatly as we are not considering selling any time soon. My family likes it here. We don't need the major traffic congestion, latest and greatest flash in the pan-will be closed in a year trendy restaurant or miles and miles of strip malls of Oakland county.

[Towne Cluber]

In 2015 a 400k home in the Pointes will go for 1 million+ in Birmingham. That's a pretty dramatic swing in the region's wealth center.

...More like $675k to $775k, NOT $1m.

[canuck]

The reason that there is no public movie theater or big box retail here is that we don't want them here.

Emagine wanted to build a theater in the Village a few years ago and that idea was quickly squashed. There is a very nice 2 screen movie theater in Windmill Pointe Park that shows first run movies and is open to residents only.

We don't want a Walmart, Kmart, Home Depot, Lowes, Meijer or other "big box" retail here. That is what Hall road or Big Beaver Road is for.

As far as restaurants, there are plenty of fine restaurants here. Marais, The Hill, DaEduardo, Antonio's, Rockefeller's to name a few.

As for taxes, the total millage for homestead property in G.P.F is 48.0095 mills [[2014 rate). The total for your beloved Birmingham is 45.2097 [[2014 rate), not a significant difference. Detroit's 2014 rate is 68.7896. Now, who has the "sky high" taxes again? We are more than happy to pay the taxes that we do in order to receive the superior city services and police protection that we receive.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ta...e_480472_7.pdf

And by the way, our home is appreciating nicely. But that does not matter too greatly as we are not considering selling any time soon. My family likes it here. We don't need the major traffic congestion, latest and greatest flash in the pan-will be closed in a year trendy restaurant or miles and miles of strip malls of Oakland county.

No doubt, The Pointes will be a treasured part of Michigan and Detroit metro for many years to come. The value is great for the money especially when compared to other metros in the US and Canada. The quality in planning these older suburbs is hard to approach nowadays no matter how hard our contemporaries try to market their new developments. The mix of housing is pretty interesting in that it is not a totally unaffordable and exclusive set of communities. The beauty of the more important residential architecture and the clubs is a really major plus for the residents. I am pretty confident that the Pointes will become better and contribute to Detroit's effort at redefining a metro that brought the planet into the motor age. My two cents...

[bust]

It depends. The Pointes are a much better "value" than those other places if you want a home for life, and don't care about price appreciation. In that respect they may be the best buy in Metro Detroit. It's true that you get more for your money in the Pointes than somewhere like Novi or Northville or Royal Oak [[and the difference with Birmingham is completely ridiculous; the Pointes probably are about 40% as expensive apples to apples at this point). And the Pointes are beautiful, and deliver great schools and fantastic services.

But the Pointes are a terrible investment if you're looking for price appreciation. They have been the laggards of all the wealthy Metro Detroit suburbs. They have had the slowest price appreciation over time, probably because they're an island of prosperity at this point, and about 40 minutes from everything else in the metro area. There's no movie theater, no big box retail, no upscale retail, few restaurants, and sky high taxes.

In 1970, the Pointes were the richest and most expensive suburbs. In 2015 a 400k home in the Pointes will go for 1 million+ in Birmingham. That's a pretty dramatic swing in the region's wealth center.

Birmingham is a great place and I'd be happy to live there. It's on our shortlist too. And you're correct: the past two or three decades property has appreciated much more in Birmingham and nearby than in Grosse Pointe. Where we differ is whether that makes Birmingham a better investment given the facts as they exist today.

I'd think twice before jumping to the conclusion property values in Birmingham and Grosse Pointe will continue the trends of past decades. For the reasons I mentioned in my previous comment I speculate those trends show signs of reversing. And given the buy low sell high axiom, I'd think thrice.

Congratulations if you bought in Birmingham decades ago. From an investment perspective, that was definitely the right move. But after so many decades of imbalanced appreciation relative to other areas, don't you wonder whether it's as wise an investment today? If it's true as you say homes there cost a 2.5 multiple over something comparable in Grosse Pointe, isn't the obvious question whether they deserve it? And with prices so high in Birmingham, what's the likely upside on an investment there today? With what risk? Do the historical trends that supported the imbalance continue to exist? I don't have a crystal ball, so this is just speculation, but it seems to me purchasing a home in Grosse Pointe, parts of Detroit, and a few other places are much more likely to deliver a high return on investment, with less downside risk.

And since we're discussing a family home, not just an investment, another huge consideration is how much happier you'll be with the higher quality home you can afford in Grosse Pointe compared to what's within reach in Birmingham. Most of us have limits what we can afford. How many new people are you expecting in the Detroit Metro area with the means to afford a $1,000,000 home?

Anyway, I wish the best for everyone. Detroit, Birmingham, Grosse Pointe, Windsor, Berkley, River Rouge. Perhaps not so much some of those exurbs that are so far flung. We're all in this together, despite what L. Brooks Patterson says.

[Bham1982]

The reason that there is no public movie theater or big box retail here is that we don't want them here.

Well, yeah, that's kind of the point. The Pointes would be crazy to approve a movie theater or big box retail, and we all know why.

Would be a crappy ghetto scene in 5 minutes and harm property values. The last GP movie theater closed after a shooting. The Eastland area has had shootings, murders and all kinds of crazy stuff. There would be no way to have such stuff in the Pointes without turning to crap.

In a normal suburb, where you aren't surrounded by hard-core ghetto, people have movie theaters and big box stores in proximity, and don't have to drive 45 minutes to avoid shootings.

As far as restaurants, there are plenty of fine restaurants here. Marais, The Hill, DaEduardo, Antonio's, Rockefeller's to name a few.

Not really. There are very few restaurants in the Pointes, and even fewer of quality.

As for taxes, the total millage for homestead property in G.P.F is 48.0095 mills [[2014 rate). The total for your beloved Birmingham is 45.2097 [[2014 rate), not a significant difference.

Birmingham has sky-high taxes, some of the highest in Oakland County. Saying "we're only slightly higher than Birmingham" is like saying "this zeppelin is only slightly more dangerous than the Hindenburg". And LOL at "beloved" Birmingham. Just because I live here doesn't mean I'm a fan of the place.

We don't need the major traffic congestion, latest and greatest flash in the pan-will be closed in a year trendy restaurant or miles and miles of strip malls of Oakland county.

True, you won't have to worry about traffic or anything trendy, at least not in our lifetimes.

[Bham1982]

...More like $675k to $775k, NOT $1m.

LOL, no. A 400k home in the Pointes is 1 million in Birmingham. Typical updated 50's-60's-era colonials go for 400k in the Pointes and 1 million in Birmingham.

A 675k home in the Pointes could not be bought for less than 1.4 or so in Birmingham. Even in Northville would be closer to 1 million than to 675. In Bloomfield Twp that GP 675k home would be around 1.1-1.2 or so.

The Pointes are an amazing value if you want a "forever home" and don't care about resale. They're a poor value if you want to flip. Long-term price appreciation has been extremely slow.

In 1970, if someone told you Northville would be more expensive than GP Farms, people would be on the floor, laughing. Northville was a rural hick town that had nothing. Now you get much more for your money in the Pointes, excepting right on the water.

[bust]

There are very few restaurants in the Pointes, and even fewer of quality.

That definitely used to be the case. But the number of good restaurants has improved dramatically recently. I'll add Ristorante Bucci to the list, which is like a high class restaurant in New York, at half the price.

True, you won't have to worry about traffic or anything trendy, at least not in our lifetimes.

Grosse Pointe trendy? Thankfully not, when most people's idea of trendy in Metro Detroit == Royal Oak. Not to disparage the place -- it has its advantages -- but I prefer to avoid it on weekends. Quality over quantity. Meanwhile I suspect I'm younger than you, so perhaps in my lifetime.

The Dirty Dog is a great jazz club with equally good food. The owner runs Mack Avenue records. Check out their releases. Excellent stuff. http://www.mackavenue.com.

[bust]

In 1970, if someone told you Northville would be more expensive than GP Farms, people would be on the floor, laughing. Northville was a rural hick town that had nothing. Now you get much more for your money in the Pointes, excepting right on the water.

This pretty much proves my point. I'd still roll on the floor laughing if you suggested I choose Northville over Grosse Pointe. Does it deserve its high prices? Or are they a symptom of unfortunate trends that are coming to an end?

Like we're constantly reminded in the fine print of financial investment ads: "Past Performance Is Not A Guarantee Of Future Returns."

[Gpwrangler]

[[snipped)

True, you won't have to worry about traffic or anything trendy, at least not in our lifetimes.

Wow, nice slam.

Birmingham is surrounded by nothing but well-off areas. Even the bad part of Birmingham [[chapin, bird street , etc in the southeast corner) have had most of the cottages bulldozed and rebuild to fill the lot lines. Simply put, you don't have a Detroit next door and that helps property values. Birmingham property values do well even when everything tanks. Crime is limited to road rage [[there's plenty of that), domestic and neighbor issues, and high dollar property crime. You guys don't follow your cops around with cameras and no one protested when Bird or other streets were closed to through traffic. Birmingham city council meetings are for Its own residents. I know all about it, from experience.

Grosse pointe is on a much smaller scale and much more diverse, and does have Detroit for a neighbor. For me the good outweighs the bad. There are always 401k to invest in; at least I'm not worrying about losing money on my home. I do feel sorry for those in GPP who can't even fit in their own city meetings because they're full of people protesting farmers market sheds but I'm guessing they'll be OK. GP survived 2008 so I'm guessing it will be OK despite all the gloom and doom on here.

[TTime]

The reason that there is no public movie theater or big box retail here is that we don't want them here.

Emagine wanted to build a theater in the Village a few years ago and that idea was quickly squashed. There is a very nice 2 screen movie theater in Windmill Pointe Park that shows first run movies and is open to residents only.

We don't want a Walmart, Kmart, Home Depot, Lowes, Meijer or other "big box" retail here. That is what Hall road or Big Beaver Road is for.

As far as restaurants, there are plenty of fine restaurants here. Marais, The Hill, DaEduardo, Antonio's, Rockefeller's to name a few.

As for taxes, the total millage for homestead property in G.P.F is 48.0095 mills [[2014 rate). The total for your beloved Birmingham is 45.2097 [[2014 rate), not a significant difference. Detroit's 2014 rate is 68.7896. Now, who has the "sky high" taxes again? We are more than happy to pay the taxes that we do in order to receive the superior city services and police protection that we receive.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ta...e_480472_7.pdf

And by the way, our home is appreciating nicely. But that does not matter too greatly as we are not considering selling any time soon. My family likes it here. We don't need the major traffic congestion, latest and greatest flash in the pan-will be closed in a year trendy restaurant or miles and miles of strip malls of Oakland county.

Ha you may not want them on your street or even in your city but it would probably be good for your property values to have them in a neighboring buffer burb 5 mins away rather than your current situation.

[313WX]

Ha you may not want them on your street or even in your city but it would probably be good for your property values to have them in a neighboring buffer burb 5 mins away rather than your current situation.

Harper Woods is about 5 minutes away from Grosse Pointe and offers those amenities. And beyond Harper Woods, there's also Roseville which is only 10 minutes away from I-94.

Now whether or not Grosse Pointers are too saddidy to shop & eat in Harper Woods & Roseville is probably a completely different discussion.

[TTime]

Harper Woods is about 5 minutes away from Grosse Pointe and offers those amenities. And beyond Harper Woods, there's also Roseville which is only 10 minutes away from I-94.

Now whether or not Grosse Pointers are too saddidy to shop & eat in Harper Woods & Roseville is probably a completely different discussion.

Well it looks like someone hasn't been to Harper Woods or Roseville lately. Yeah good luck sending your daughter in law from some upscale burb on the east coast to Eastland or Gratiot to pick up some last minute items for Aunt Bitty's party...unless she likes Brooks Bros of course then she's out of luck. Also, good luck explaining to her that she needs to take someone with her to Eastland because it's not safe to send an out of towner by themselves.

[DetroitBoy]

Well, yeah, that's kind of the point. The Pointes would be crazy to approve a movie theater or big box retail, and we all know why.

Would be a crappy ghetto scene in 5 minutes and harm property values. The last GP movie theater closed after a shooting. The Eastland area has had shootings, murders and all kinds of crazy stuff. There would be no way to have such stuff in the Pointes without turning to crap.

In a normal suburb, where you aren't surrounded by hard-core ghetto, people have movie theaters and big box stores in proximity, and don't have to drive 45 minutes to avoid shootings.



Not really. There are very few restaurants in the Pointes, and even fewer of quality.



Birmingham has sky-high taxes, some of the highest in Oakland County. Saying "we're only slightly higher than Birmingham" is like saying "this zeppelin is only slightly more dangerous than the Hindenburg". And LOL at "beloved" Birmingham. Just because I live here doesn't mean I'm a fan of the place.



True, you won't have to worry about traffic or anything trendy, at least not in our lifetimes.

Considering how GP used to be in the days when it meant something to live there, it doesn't compare to the quality of life available today in BH or B'Ham in Oakland County. We left after Jake's closed in the Village and it wasn't replaced by a store of similar caliber. That really did signal the beginning of the end because it showed that the town could no longer support high end retail. The town did take aggressive steps to stop the infiltration of Detroiters crossing it's borders. Punch and Judy shutdown. Esquire Theater shutdown. Other stores in what had been a shopping district pushed out and torn down for GPP to start acquiring land to build its Gothic Line to have a beach head of surveillance for Alter Rd including installing street islands and stop lights to essentially bring traffic on Jefferson to a stop when crossing the border. If you consider there is no hardware store outside of going into the ghetto of Morningside to Warren Ave or taking your chances getting shot while visiting Eastland in Harper Woods, I'd hardly reference driving a half an hour to Hall Rd a feature of living in Grosse Pointe if you need a garden hose or want to go to Best Buy or Macy's. "We don't want stores like that here" is a nonsensical way of saying 'there's no convenient place to shop if you live here.' As for dining, not many top chefs in the area call The Hill home compared to downtown B'Ham where there is a dozen or so good places to eat and several more high end restaurants. Not sure how many logical people make home investment decisions without considering the amount of appreciation they expect since a home is usually the largest investment most families have in the U.S. The schools are good for now but North HS and the elementary schools feeding it have increasing numbers of Harper Woods students which is a drag on the caliber of the system and people know it regardless of what they are willing to admit. You can't beat the schools in BH which are diverse with no racial tension. The taxes are high in GP for good city services but more and more of it goes for public safety which is not going to change anytime soon especially with Harper Woods going section 8 housing and the likelihood of Eastland closing which will mean even less money for Public Safety. GP has unique features and proximity to downtown which in 20 years might be a valuable differentiator. The Motor City is all about driving though so there will always be families wanting to escape the urban feel of the city to raise their families. An extra few minutes behind the wheel isn't a big deal to most people today.

[Patrick]

I took a spin through Harper Woods a few days back during my visit to the area. I was saddened and surprised by the decline, at least from a property appearance standpoint. Just how bad is HW these days? Anyone on DYes live there at this time?

[Gpwrangler]

Considering how GP used to be in the days when it meant something to live there, it doesn't compare to the quality of life available today in BH or B'Ham in Oakland County. We left after Jake's closed in the Village and it wasn't replaced by a store of similar caliber. That really did signal the beginning of the end because it showed that the town could no longer support high end retail. The town did take aggressive steps to stop the infiltration of Detroiters crossing it's borders. Punch and Judy shutdown. Esquire Theater shutdown. Other stores in what had been a shopping district pushed out and torn down for GPP to start acquiring land to build its Gothic Line to have a beach head of surveillance for Alter Rd including installing street islands and stop lights to essentially bring traffic on Jefferson to a stop when crossing the border. If you consider there is no hardware store outside of going into the ghetto of Morningside to Warren Ave or taking your chances getting shot while visiting Eastland in Harper Woods, I'd hardly reference driving a half an hour to Hall Rd a feature of living in Grosse Pointe if you need a garden hose or want to go to Best Buy or Macy's. "We don't want stores like that here" is a nonsensical way of saying 'there's no convenient place to shop if you live here.' As for dining, not many top chefs in the area call The Hill home compared to downtown B'Ham where there is a dozen or so good places to eat and several more high end restaurants. Not sure how many logical people make home investment decisions without considering the amount of appreciation they expect since a home is usually the largest investment most families have in the U.S. The schools are good for now but North HS and the elementary schools feeding it have increasing numbers of Harper Woods students which is a drag on the caliber of the system and people know it regardless of what they are willing to admit. You can't beat the schools in BH which are diverse with no racial tension. The taxes are high in GP for good city services but more and more of it goes for public safety which is not going to change anytime soon especially with Harper Woods going section 8 housing and the likelihood of Eastland closing which will mean even less money for Public Safety. GP has unique features and proximity to downtown which in 20 years might be a valuable differentiator. The Motor City is all about driving though so there will always be families wanting to escape the urban feel of the city to raise their families. An extra few minutes behind the wheel isn't a big deal to most people today.

I would pay double the taxes for the level of public safety we get. Bring it on as Bush used to say. I sleep like a baby here. Trump will bring back the military police gear and I hope we stock up. I see BH and Birmingham already have theirs, enjoyed seeing it during the Woodward Cruise.

[SyGolden48236]

Not really. There are very few restaurants in the Pointes, and even fewer of quality.

True, you won't have to worry about traffic or anything trendy, at least not in our lifetimes.

I guess if you're a pretentious wannabe putz then you might be right. But we like Grosse Pointe just the way it is. We don't need nouveau riche posers and wannabes. We don't worry about trendy, we care about quality. We don't worry about putting forth an image. We care about living a good life.

I doubt that you could ever understand these things. How pathetic! Feh!

[Gpwrangler]

I guess if you're a pretentious wannabe putz then you might be right. But we like Grosse Pointe just the way it is. We don't need nouveau riche posers and wannabes. We don't worry about trendy, we care about quality. We don't worry about putting forth an image. We care about living a good life.

I doubt that you could ever understand these things. How pathetic! Feh!

Lol I almost spit out my beer when I read this.

Angry ex-GPers who got too many traffic tickets here [[or their parents did lol), or entry level Birmingham living on Ruffner or Bird street and thinking they've arrived 'cuz they're nowhere near that nasty Detroit lol

[SyGolden48236]

Lol I almost spit out my beer when I read this.

Angry ex-GPers who got too many traffic tickets here [[or their parents did lol), or entry level Birmingham living on Ruffner or Bird street and thinking they've arrived 'cuz they're nowhere near that nasty Detroit lol

Exactly. that is the whole Birmingham mantra. You have to buy the new BMW every 2 years while in GP we are happy driving a 5 year old Buick or Lincoln and investing our money in things that don't depreciate. There is far more wealth in GP than there is in Birmingham, not that that makes for a quality of life. Most people in Grosse Pointe don't flaunt their wealth. Many folks in Birmingham like to pose and show off and lead you to believe that they are something far greater than they truly are. It is really very sad and pathetic. That is the difference between old money and new money.

People like Bham1982 will never understand what true quality of life is until they grow up and move out of their parent's homes and make their own way in the world.

[Gpwrangler]

http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/loca.../8612764-story

Yeah nothing ever happens in BH lmao

[TTime]

Exactly. that is the whole Birmingham mantra. You have to buy the new BMW every 2 years while in GP we are happy driving a 5 year old Buick or Lincoln and investing our money in things that don't depreciate. There is far more wealth in GP than there is in Birmingham, not that that makes for a quality of life. Most people in Grosse Pointe don't flaunt their wealth. Many folks in Birmingham like to pose and show off and lead you to believe that they are something far greater than they truly are. It is really very sad and pathetic. That is the difference between old money and new money.

People like Bham1982 will never understand what true quality of life is until they grow up and move out of their parent's homes and make their own way in the world.

Watching GP vs Bham makes for great comedy. Both places have plenty of great people to be sure but they also have loud individuals with seriously inflated senses of importance. In the big picture both are nice places to live but are simply not very relevant in the grand scheme.

[Gpwrangler]

Watching GP vs Bham makes for great comedy. Both places have plenty of great people to be sure but they also have loud individuals with seriously inflated senses of importance. In the big picture both are nice places to live but are simply not very relevant in the grand scheme.

Lol inflated importance? On here? Never lol