Aftermath of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

[Ray1936]

Now that the 70th anniversary of both of those events has come and gone, I'm moved to comment about August 14, 1945, in Detroit. That morning had a pretty good rainfall, and the early afternoon found me in the alley behind 12316 Sorrento with my model PT boat [[No, not Kennedy's, he was still unknown then) pushing it through all the neat puddles the rain had left behind. Just as I was about to push it in to some Jap island [[yes, the term "Jap" was not politically incorrect back then) to win it for our guys, I heard Mom out front hollering like I never heard before. I called back to her, and she came running into the alley with the most wonderous smile on her face I had ever seen. "The war is over!!! The war is over!!!" she shouted over and over. My nine-year old brain had a tough time comprehending at first, but then joy overtook me as I thought my older brother might be coming home.

"Hurry!" she commanded, "We're going downtown to celebrate!". Aunt Gretel had quickly made a poster for the back of Dad's 1940 Chevy,"We Hit the Jap Pot". I thought it was cute then. I still do today.

Five of us jumped in the car; Mom, Dad, Auntie, me, and my kid brother, Dave, all long gone but me. Over to Grand River, alongside the Tower Theatre, and a right turn towards downtown. Every car horn was honking. To this day, I never heard anything more like it. Moving towards downtown, by the time we hit Livernois, all six lanes of Grand River were heading southeast. I wonder to this day what some poor soul did, trying to get out to Redford or points northwest.

The confetti was everywhere. Every car had people hanging out every window possible, cheering, yelling, screaming, and....yeah....kissing. Although I wasn't much into that at the time.

It must have taken an hour for us to get from Livernois to Joy Road....I remember that because that was where the Riviera Theatre was. By then, Grand River was bumper to bumper with immobile autos, although no one really cared. The celebration was absolutely enormous. [[My wife remember that she was vacationing at Island Lake in Oakland County, and her folks took the car into Brighton for a small, although just as enthusiastic, celebration).

Finally, after no moving for a good 30 minutes, Dad was able to turn west onto Joy Road, where he found a Greek restaurant, and took us all to dinner. That was special, because in those days we NEVER went to a restaurant for dinner! Mom, Dad, and Auntie had a beer; brother Dave and I had a root beer. All ate well, as I recall.

Anyway, the war was over, thank God. Auntie's husband, Uncle Harold, and my older brother, Rudy, came home in one piece, both saying they had been re-deployed and ready for the Honshu Invasion. The nuclear bomb, horrible as it was, prevented even more horrible bloodshed of Japanese and Allied lives. I suspect there would have been 2 million casualties had that taken place.

Yes, America and its allies won the war. More importantly, we helped to re-build both Germany and Japan in the years that followed. I don't think Hitler and/or Tojo would have been anywhere near so kind.

God bless America.

[Jimaz]

It was a bit before my time but one of our enduring family mysteries has been why we have photos of my Japanese uncle wearing a U.S. Army uniform during WWII. My parents were close friends with them in California at the time but they never gave a satisfactory answer to this puzzle. Indeed, they never seemed to think there was anything mysterious about those photos despite my mentioning the Japanese internment camps in the U.S. My father was in the army too during WWII but never went overseas — another mystery no one ever explained.

I can only come up with two theories.

1. My Japanese uncle eventually became a successful physician so perhaps the army needed his medical skills enough to excuse his heritage [[with appropriate background checks).
2. Everyone was sworn to secrecy over some secret mission?

So my [[rhetorical?) question is: How many other men of conspicuously-Japanese-appearance [[thus not spies) were wearing U.S. Army uniforms during WWII within the U.S. borders? I would guess it was a pretty rare occurrence.

[Jimaz]

And back to topic, in Driving Mr. Albert: A Trip Across America with Einstein's Brain, there was a story where someone delivering a radioactive globe to the Manhattan Project noted that this mysterious metallic object was emitting heat on its own. The deliveryman had no idea that, at that moment, he was being irradiated.

And yes, Einstein's brain was indeed driven across the country.

I'm certain he would have laughed.

Only in America.

[EastsideAl]

It was a bit before my time but one of our enduring family mysteries has been why we have photos of my Japanese uncle wearing a U.S. Army uniform during WWII. My parents were close friends with them in California at the time but they never gave a satisfactory answer to this puzzle. Indeed, they never seemed to think there was anything mysterious about those photos despite my mentioning the Japanese internment camps in the U.S. My father was in the army too during WWII but never went overseas — another mystery no one ever explained.

I can only come up with two theories.

1. My Japanese uncle eventually became a successful physician so perhaps the army needed his medical skills enough to excuse his heritage [[with appropriate background checks).
2. Everyone was sworn to secrecy over some secret mission?

So my [[rhetorical?) question is: How many other men of conspicuously-Japanese-appearance [[thus not spies) were wearing U.S. Army uniforms during WWII within the U.S. borders? I would guess it was a pretty rare occurrence.

Tens of thousands of Japanese-Americans wore U.S. military uniforms in WWII, and fought for American forces. The U.S. Army's 442nd Regimental Combat Team was almost entirely made up of soldiers of Japanese heritage, many of whom enlisted from the internment camps and had family detained there. They fought in Italy and France, suffered a very high rate of casualties, and were one of the most decorated American units in the war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_...ited_States%29

[old guy]

Great thread and story Ray.

[Detroitnerd]

History has proved that dropping the atom bombs on Japan was not necessary. The Empire of Japan proffered its surrender months before, on much the same terms, and some argue that the dropping of the bombs was more about showing our future Cold War enemies America's might than saving the lives of 1 million American servicemen.

That said, the destruction of those two magnificent bombs pales in comparison to the "conventional" bombing of Japan. Astonishing percentages of Japanese cities were utterly destroyed, with the exception, I believe, of Kyoto, because General Stimson ordered that it not even be conventionally bombed. Stimson reportedly believed that bombing a city with thousands of temples would be too destructive, a rare bit of courtliness in a very savage air war.

Of course, if I were a boy during the war, like my father, I can see how I wouldn't cry any tears over frying a couple hundred thousand Japs if it meant the war could end. I don't think people today realize the way a whole nation was really mobilized and invested in a national action back then. It must have been really something to see all your stars at the theater talking about your war bonds, to see war plants humming, to be fighting a good fight against Hitler and Tojo.

No, even though I think it wasn't necessary, I understand how Americans rejoiced at the news of the atomic bombings and unconditional surrender. Lots of good men gave their lives for the latter part of that bargain.

What I worry about is the lessons the "good war" taught us. Studs Terkel is the guy who wrote "The Good War," and his words ring out:

Ours was the only country among the combatants in World War Two that was neither invaded not bombed. Ours were the only cities not blasted to rubble. ...
World War Two has warped our view of how we look at things today. We see things in terms of that war, which in a sense was a good war. But the twisted memory of it encourages the men of my generation to be willing, almost eager, to use military force anywhere in the world. ...
It was one war that many who would have resisted 'your other wars' supported enthusiastically. It was a 'just war,' if there is any such animal. In a time of nuclear weaponry, it is the language of a lunatic.

[archfan]

History has proved that dropping the atom bombs on Japan was not necessary. The Empire of Japan proffered its surrender months before, on much the same terms, and some argue that the dropping of the bombs was more about showing our future Cold War enemies America's might than saving the lives of 1 million American servicemen.
...

Sorry, I can't get past this. History has not shown this. The leaders of Japan were divided on whether to surrender even after the second bomb was dropped. They required an unprecedented intervention by the Emperor to finally agree to surrender. This article has a good summary of the events: http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conten...mnyyl.asp?pg=1

[Hermod]

It was a bit before my time but one of our enduring family mysteries has been why we have photos of my Japanese uncle wearing a U.S. Army uniform during WWII. My parents were close friends with them in California at the time but they never gave a satisfactory answer to this puzzle. Indeed, they never seemed to think there was anything mysterious about those photos despite my mentioning the Japanese internment camps in the U.S. My father was in the army too during WWII but never went overseas — another mystery no one ever explained.

I can only come up with two theories.

1. My Japanese uncle eventually became a successful physician so perhaps the army needed his medical skills enough to excuse his heritage [[with appropriate background checks).
2. Everyone was sworn to secrecy over some secret mission?

So my [[rhetorical?) question is: How many other men of conspicuously-Japanese-appearance [[thus not spies) were wearing U.S. Army uniforms during WWII within the U.S. borders? I would guess it was a pretty rare occurrence.

Two groups

1. Japanese language interpreters for interrogating teams operating in the Pacific.

2. The 100th Separate Infantry Battalion later expanded into the 442 Infantry Regiment which fought in Italy and its motto "Go For Broke" using Japanese-American personnel.

Both groups would have been trained in the US [[and later replacements for them) before going overseas.

[Jimaz]

Tens of thousands of Japanese-Americans wore U.S. military uniforms in WWII, and fought for American forces. The U.S. Army's 442nd Regimental Combat Team was almost entirely made up of soldiers of Japanese heritage,....

Thanks for that. It seems less a mystery now.

[Lowell]

Ray, what a great memory through the eyes of a child. Thanks for that.

The loyalty of the Japanese-Americans during the war was one of the most noble stories of patriotism in American history. Imagine fighting for your country while your family was in a concentration camp, their businesses and jobs destroyed. One Japanese unit was the first of the liberators of Dachau. Imagine how mind-blowing that had to be to the inmates.

[lpg]

Several years ago my wife and I traveled to Washington, DC. We stopped at the Air and Space Museum. The nose of the Enola Gay was on display. We stood behind a group of Japanese who were commenting in English about the use of the bomb. After listening to them for a few minutes, I made the comment that I make no apologies that my father did not die in an invasion of Japan. He had survived campaigns in New Guinea, Luzon, and Okinawa. In August 1945 he was still on Okinawa awaiting orders for the invasion. When the war ended he spent a month with the Army of Occupation in Japan. He along with his 4 brothers all returned home to Detroit. The Japanese tourists we encountered fell silent and moved on to another exhibit. RIP dad.

[FlyOnTheWall]

So my [[rhetorical?) question is: How many other men of conspicuously-Japanese-appearance [[thus not spies) were wearing U.S. Army uniforms during WWII within the U.S. borders? I would guess it was a pretty rare occurrence.

You might like to check this link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japane...n_World_War_II

[401don]

History has proved that dropping the atom bombs on Japan was not necessary. The Empire of Japan proffered its surrender months before, on much the same terms, and some argue that the dropping of the bombs was more about showing our future Cold War enemies America's might than saving the lives of 1 million American servicemen.

That said, the destruction of those two magnificent bombs pales in comparison to the "conventional" bombing of Japan. Astonishing percentages of Japanese cities were utterly destroyed, with the exception, I believe, of Kyoto, because General Stimson ordered that it not even be conventionally bombed. Stimson reportedly believed that bombing a city with thousands of temples would be too destructive, a rare bit of courtliness in a very savage air war.

Of course, if I were a boy during the war, like my father, I can see how I wouldn't cry any tears over frying a couple hundred thousand Japs if it meant the war could end. I don't think people today realize the way a whole nation was really mobilized and invested in a national action back then. It must have been really something to see all your stars at the theater talking about your war bonds, to see war plants humming, to be fighting a good fight against Hitler and Tojo.

No, even though I think it wasn't necessary, I understand how Americans rejoiced at the news of the atomic bombings and unconditional surrender. Lots of good men gave their lives for the latter part of that bargain.

What I worry about is the lessons the "good war" taught us. Studs Terkel is the guy who wrote "The Good War," and his words ring out:

Ours was the only country among the combatants in World War Two that was neither invaded not bombed. Ours were the only cities not blasted to rubble. ...
World War Two has warped our view of how we look at things today. We see things in terms of that war, which in a sense was a good war. But the twisted memory of it encourages the men of my generation to be willing, almost eager, to use military force anywhere in the world. ...
It was one war that many who would have resisted 'your other wars' supported enthusiastically. It was a 'just war,' if there is any such animal. In a time of nuclear weaponry, it is the language of a lunatic.

Did good 'ol Studs forget about Canada? Canadians were fighting and dying for 2 years waiting for Americans to get off their butts.

[Ray1936]

Did good 'ol Studs forget about Canada? Canadians were fighting and dying for 2 years waiting for Americans to get off their butts.

Technically true, but America's lend-lease program got 'em going.

[401don]

Technically true, but America's lend-lease program got 'em going.

Not to mention Pearl Harbor. I think Roosevelt was really thinking "About time you Japs attacked. I was running out of excuses for staying out of the war."

[Wesley Mouch]

History has proved that dropping the atom bombs on Japan was not necessary.

I hope never to meet this version of History.

[Sailor Rick]

Thanks for sharing Ray.
Back when I was sailing "relief" 30 years ago on the Lakes, I made it a point to ask the vets aboard [[who were about the same age as I am now, they seemed ancient then!)
were they were V-J day.

As you'd imagine, most were on ships at sea, Some in the Pacific, heading to Japan. They said the news was broadcast over the ship's loudspeakers. Momentarily, the divide between men and officers was bridged as all were hoarse from yelling, laughing and forgiving of the toughest for breaking down in tears of joy.

Another was an army vet who'd done his time in the Europe trying to make is way home to Michigan on the crowded trains and was stuck in a train station in "BumF%^&!% Arkansas" when "Every F*^%&^@ hillbilly in town decided to fire their shotguns in celebration. Every man in the station hit the dirt!" my shipmate laughed.

A decade later I was on a tour boat in the Philippines going to visit Corregidor .
On discovering I was an American, two separate Filipino families told me about their treatment during the Japanese occupation, then thanking me, me personally as an American for liberating them.

The American flag flying over the memorial in Corregidor represented something very different to me that day.

[EastsideAl]

Several years ago my wife and I traveled to Washington, DC. We stopped at the Air and Space Museum. The nose of the Enola Gay was on display. We stood behind a group of Japanese who were commenting in English about the use of the bomb. After listening to them for a few minutes, I made the comment that I make no apologies that my father did not die in an invasion of Japan. He had survived campaigns in New Guinea, Luzon, and Okinawa. In August 1945 he was still on Okinawa awaiting orders for the invasion. When the war ended he spent a month with the Army of Occupation in Japan. He along with his 4 brothers all returned home to Detroit. The Japanese tourists we encountered fell silent and moved on to another exhibit. RIP dad.

How nice of you to harass random tourists with your views on WW2. Were they discussing this matter in English so you could understand what they were talking about, or did you just assume that all Japanese people have exactly the same feelings about these things [[and would duly communicate your feelings to their fearless leader)?

[EastsideAl]

The leaders of Japan were divided on whether to surrender even after the second bomb was dropped. They required an unprecedented intervention by the Emperor to finally agree to surrender.

This is a key point about the history of the atomic bombing. In fact, even after the Emperor had committed to surrender, there was a near-coup of hardline Army leaders, and a drama surrounding attempts to stop the surrender message from being broadcast to the Japanese people. The history of what led up to the surrender, the near-revolutionary act by the Emperor that finally allowed it to happen, and the immediate aftermath and reaction, are pretty fascinating.

I've been to both Hiroshima and Nagasaki during the time I spent in Japan. In fact, I spent quite some time in Hiroshima [[which is a really fun city now, although that's beside the point here), and have mulled over the atomic bombings quite a bit. The museums, displays, and parks that deal with the bombing are really quite moving and left me less with a moral dilemma than with a feeling that we should work to never let such things, or the things that led to it, happen again. Whatever one's position on the bombings, I don't think one could ever come away from there and deny the true horror and human cost of the result.

For my own part, I don't think that the atomic bombings of civilians could ever really be defended from a purely moral position. But much, if not most, of what actually happens in warfare is not really morally defensible - even if the war itself is. Instead, what happens in wars is generally ruled by expediency and anticipated results. Once a war is underway, the greatest force behind any country's or soldier's actions have to be in service of victory, rather than morality or any other consideration. That is, in fact, the very essence of what's terrible about war, and is true even in "just" wars.

From a military point of view though, in a devastating war that wouldn't end against an enemy that showed no signs of giving in [[after all, the incredibly bloody battle of Okinawa preceded the bombings by less than 2 months), I am sure that the atomic bombs seemed like a masterstroke that held out the possibility of swift victory. From the perspective of American leaders at the time, I'm sure it would have seemed indefensible not to use them.

What happened in Hiroshima and Nagasaki no doubt shortened the war, and probably saved many thousands of lives, both American and Japanese. Just saying that though is, in the end, no real escape from the true horror and loss of those days and those acts, no real answer to the many thousands who were evaporated in an instant or suffered long lingering deaths, little comfort to those who suffered life-altering injuries while just going about their daily business. And historically, in the long view, while I think the lives saved lend some justification and comfort to those specific actions, nothing can comfort or save us from the future implications of the terrible knowledge of what becomes possible and defensible in total war, or the potential forces that were forever unleashed upon the world.

[EastsideAl]

Bringing this discussion back for a moment to the purpose of this board, I wonder if people know that parts of the Hiroshima bomb were made in Detroit? One of a few personal associations I have with the atomic bombs [[despite having been born several years after the events) is the claim of my grandfather, a journeyman tool and die man, to have worked on what he later came to know were parts of the bomb itself.

Also, as I understand it, the large diffusers for separating uranium were made at Chrysler's Lynch Rd. plant, and sent down to a large diffuser plant in Oak Ridge TN. Planning and engineering work was done, in secret, downtown on the upper floors of the old Sanders Building at 1525 Woodward.

[ABetterDetroit]

This is a key point about the history of the atomic bombing. In fact, even after the Emperor had committed to surrender, their was a near-coup of hardline Army leaders, and a drama surrounding attempts to stop the surrender message from being broadcast to the Japanese people. The history of what led up to the surrender, the near-revolutionary act that finally allowed it to happen, and the immediate aftermath and reaction, are pretty fascinating.

I've been to both Hiroshima and Nagasaki during the time I spent in Japan. In fact, I spent quite some time in Hiroshima [[which is really a fun city now, although that's beside the point here). The museums, displays, and parks that deal with the bombing are really quite moving and left me less with a moral dilemma than with a feeling that we should never let such things, or the things that led to it, happen again. Whatever one's position on the bombings, I don't think one could ever come away from there and deny the true horror and human cost of the result.

For myself, I don't think that the atomic bombings of civilians could ever really be defended from a purely moral position. But much, if not most, of what actually happens in warfare is not really morally defensible. Even if the war itself is. Instead, what happens in wars is generally ruled by expediency and anticipated results.

Once a war is underway, the greatest force behind any country's or soldier's actions have to be in service of victory, rather than morality or any other consideration. Again, this is true even in "just" wars. From a military point of view, in a devastating war that wouldn't end against an enemy that showed few signs of giving in [[after all, the incredibly bloody battle of Okinawa preceded the bombings by less than 2 months), I am sure that the atomic bombs seemed like a masterstroke that held out the possibility of swift victory. From the perspective of American leaders at the time, I'm sure it would have seemed indefensible not to use them.

What happened in Horoshima and Nagasaki no doubt shortened the war, and probably saved many thousands of lives, both American and Japanese. But just saying that though is, in the end, no real escape from the true horror and loss of those days and those acts, no answer to the many thousands who were evaporated in an instant or suffered long lingering deaths, little comfort to those who suffered life-altering injuries while just going about their daily business. And historically, in the long view, while I think the lives saved lend some justification and comfort to those specific actions, nothing can comfort or save us from the future implications of the terrible knowledge of what becomes possible and defensible in total war, or the potential forces that were forever unleashed upon the world.

This is a very intelligent, articulate and educated post on the true horror of war. If only all mankind could understand it half as well as you do Al.

[Lowell]

I have sometimes pondered why the Hiroshima bomb was dropped on a civilian target as opposed to a purely or largely military target such as a major army base, something like a Fort Hood today, followed with a pause and a message of, 'surrender now or your cities will regretably be next'. Once we used that weapon as purely a terror device we surrendered all future moral high ground.

Yet I reluctantly understand the mood of the times. The fire-bombings of Tokyo and Dresden were deadlier in lives lost and didn't lead to surrender. Morality is an early victim of war and the Japanese military was a vicious and amoral enemy with the blood of million on its hands. Their never-surrender ethic and kamikazes make the 9/11 attackers and ISIL / El Qaeda look like milk toast in comparison and we only had two bombs. We saw the opening for a knock-out punch, and it worked.

[Hermod]

I have sometimes pondered why the Hiroshima bomb was dropped on a civilian target as opposed to a purely or largely military target such as a major army base, something like a Fort Hood today, followed with a pause and a message of, 'surrender now or your cities will regretably be next'. Once we used that weapon as purely a terror device we surrendered all future moral high ground.

Lowell, in Japan as in Europe, the Army bases weren't out in the boondocks like Ft Hood. They tended to be smaller and closer to the cities. Think Ft Wayne.

Hiroshima not so much, but Nagasaki was honeycombed with Army and Navy installations.

[G-DDT]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mokusatsu

[Hermod]

My father was up in the Zambales Mountains on Luzon trying to secure Ipo Dam which supplied manilla with water. His division was to be first wave into Kyushu on Operation Olympic. He and the few other that remained from when the division got overseas in 1942 were sure that this time, they would lose the "luck of the draw". They had been through Guadalcanal, Russell islands, Munda Trail, Aitape in new Guinea, and the first wave at Lingayen Gulf in Luzon. Though my father [[1913-1993) was a kind and good man, he never regretted the A-bombs which ended the war.

Most of the men on our street were older, pre-Pearl Harbor fathers, and worked in defense industries so my father [[ROTC commission) and the younger of the Schmidt brothers were the only ones on our block of Detroit to serve. One day all of the men gathered at the corner of Yorkshire and Nottingham and began yelling and firing shotguns into the air. I was in the 1st grade then and I asked my mother what all the noise was and she told me that my Daddy would be coming home soon.