What's Happening West of Cass By The Arena Site?

[emu steve]

I keep posting to the effect that the arena will be up in two years and the question should be what will be happening due west of the arena [[West of Cass).

I kept suggesting that Ilitch Holdings owns almost no land west of Cass.

Well here is an article which suggest they have been picking up more strategic properties: The Michigan Chronicle building and apparently the 37 unit Cass Park Apartments [[I believe that is on 2nd and Ledyard - Next to the Baptist Center??? OR maybe adjacent to the Michigan Chronicle building).

I'm really, really wondering what is up with the entire blocks from Temple/Cass to Ledyard and beyond.

As I have posted many times, I see Temple Street [[between Woodward and say 2nd) and I see Cass between Temple and the Fisher as absolutely critical to the expansion of the Arena District and also an attempt to enliven the Masonic Temple area.

This should be fun to watch...

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/bus...icle/30641967/

I hope I got this Google map correctly but apparently what I think is the 'Baptist Center' is [[or was) for sale. It might be adjacent to the apartments [[Cass Park Apts?).

OR maybe the red brick mulit-family building next to the Michigan Chronicle building?

https://www.google.com/maps/place/47...4bdb5fc8bdb0a6

[JenniferL]

I won't be surprised if it all gets torn down.

[emu steve]

I won't be surprised if it all gets torn down.

Without trying to start another firestorm, I'd guess that is the plan. Most of the SMALL buildings South of Temple don't have any historical significance.

I don't think anyone would say the Michigan Chronicle building is historic. It looks pretty boring to me.

[emu steve]

BTW, I think of the area south of MLKjr. and north of the Fisher [[and west of Woodward) as "Lower Midtown".

I do consider the two Midtown areas, the other being north of MLKjr, as somewhat different. The area north of MLKjr. is by and large part of WSU and also spatially related to medical campuses on the other side of Woodward.

I see the area south of MLKjr. as essentially an extended part of the sports and entertainment district.

Anyone else use that term or is it some word salad I came up with [[like 'Lower Manhattan')?

[Dbest]

.

I don't think anyone would say the Michigan Chronicle building is historic. It looks pretty boring to me.

Yeah, it would be boring to you. That's the problem Emu, you come around this board with one objective, peddling the Ilitch snake-skin oil.

I guess you don't like Deco?

This building exterior is a closer match to the Temple than most around it. Looks like it has some great conversion potential to me. I love how this district project is now turning into the demolition of recently inhabited buildings. The building would qualify for public funds if there were a conversion plan. Instead, Olympia buys it and will tear it down.

Just how is this project supposed to spur development from other developers when ilitch owns everything? Why would they want in on a homogenized arena/strip mall district with Ilitch siphoning money off them at every turn?

Last I checked the downtown's upswing has more to do with pre-depression era architecture than it does new construction. In fact I can name some pretty big misses on new construction projects, starting with Ren-Cen, and ending at Kennedy Square. I've got more faith in the preexisting stuff.





Let me take a wild guess and say, emu finds the Loyal order of Moose lodge boring as well.


"If you demo it, they will come"... [[Fields of "district")

[emu steve]

Well, let me say:

It depends. If they have no big, big plans for that block then renovation is fine. They could put big bucks into it and make it special.

If they have big plans for the block, let's see the plans and maybe go with them.

I drove through that area over July 4th weekend, and believe me the status quo ain't too exciting.

That has to be the starting point. Maintaining what is there and in the condition it is, is still part of the dying Detroit which needs SIGNIFICANT revitalization.

There are some really vastly underutilized blocks in that area, esp. Cass/Temple/Ledyard. Any block with frontage on Cass has big potential for development. Cass in 'Lower Midtown' could be something special as one of the most important streets in Midtown [[2nd only to Woodward).

I also note that there are some human service agencies in that area and that is tricky. Would they sell and take a financial windfall and move a half dozen blocks away.

As far as deco, not my style.

I agree with RenCen [[wasn't paying attention to Detroit back then). Any building which is built like a fortress is doomed to be disappointing.

[Dbest]

Well, let me say:

It depends. If they have no big, big plans for that block then renovation is fine.

If they have big plans for the block, let's see the plans and maybe go with them.

There are some really vastly underutilized blocks in that area, esp. Cass/Temple/Ledyard. Any block with frontage on Cass has big potential for development. Cass in 'Lower Midtown' could be something special as one of the most important streets in Midtown.

As far as deco, not my style.

Fair enough, but Deco/ Beux-Arts isn't your style?

It's kind of everywhere in Detroit. It might be my favorite thing about the city. The collection shows what a powerhouse the city once was. The 1920's were unreal around Detroit.. 20+ story deco skyscrapers are rare in a lot of cities. Indy comes to mind right away, they don't have squat. Detroit has a bunch, top 4 in the US for total amount.

The beauty of Detroit's set is the fact they haven't been buried behind high rises like in NYC or even Chicago. You are inundated by them the minute you approach downtown. These buildings are Detroit's identity to tourists, and residents alike. Lately they have been getting a warm welcome from both.

These buildings big and small, collectively, are Detroit's future, not some mega-project..

A bird in hand, is worth two in a bush...

[animatedmartian]

Without trying to start another firestorm, I'd guess that is the plan. Most of the SMALL buildings South of Temple don't have any historical significance.

I don't think anyone would say the Michigan Chronicle building is historic. It looks pretty boring to me.

History shows that historical or architectural significance does not determine whether something is torn down or not.

[emu steve]

BTW, I'm looking at a Google map [[satellite view):

If one looks at Cass between Ledyard and Henry, one will find:

1). Mariner Inn, which I believe is a social service agency site,

2). An apartment building, Cass Park Apts [[?) due west,

3). Michigan Chronicle.

4). There is a building, I don't know the name of, corner of Ledyard and 2nd.

I do see the deco Michigan Chronicle building which BY ITSELF, looks nice and a good prospect for refurbishing, etc. etc.

BUT looking at the ENTIRE block there is a huge block, great location [[on Cass) with a ton of potential.

The adjacent, north, block, has three buildings and is adjacent to Cass Park and the Temple. The adjacent block, west, is adjacent to Cass Tech H.S.

We'll know if Detroit is coming back if something big happens on those two blocks. Could those blocks hold hundreds of housing units? If so, is that a 'higher and better' usage for them??

Maybe, Honky Tonk, will tell us if that is a good location to live... [[please).

[animatedmartian]

Even if there is housing added to that block, it won't happen for several years. In the mean time they will serve as parking lots, especially since the parking lots near Comerica are being lost.

[emu steve]

Even if there is housing added to that block, it won't happen for several years. In the mean time they will serve as parking lots, especially since the parking lots near Comerica are being lost.

I wonder what the commercial potential of those two Cass Ave. blocks are? One block is adjacent to Cass Park and the other Cass Tech.

If Ilitiches didn't already have Hockey Town, another eating/drinking place would work for the Cass/Ledyard/N. Henry block. Maybe sound like a waste, but fast food would also work.

That block is kind of a gateway into downtown via Cass Ave.

[rb336]

I wonder what the commercial potential of those two Cass Ave. blocks are? One block is adjacent to Cass Park and the other Cass Tech.

If Ilitiches didn't already have Hockey Town, another eating/drinking place would work for the Cass/Ledyard/N. Henry block. Maybe sound like a waste, but fast food would also work.

That block is kind of a gateway into downtown via Cass Ave.

isn't the entire block adjacent to Cass Park slated to become part of an expanded park?

[emu steve]

isn't the entire block adjacent to Cass Park slated to become part of an expanded park?

First I've heard...

[[close off 2nd street between Temple and Ledyard and double the size of Cass Park?).

Don't shoot me, guys, but I believe that block is big enough for say a soccer stadium. Seems longer than the block which houses Cass Tech FB and Detroit FC. A Midtown block large enough to hold an 8K stadium is pretty valuable as site assembly requiring an entire block isn't always easy.

I do wonder about that block as it is used what for Masonic Temple parking. Will folks going to the Masonic be willing to walk say three blocks for parking???

[mikeg19]

I believe they are doing preliminary land acquisition for a new Tigers ballpark in 20 years. No time like the present to start bulldozing stuff.....

[emu steve]

I believe they are doing preliminary land acquisition for a new Tigers ballpark in 20 years. No time like the present to start bulldozing stuff.....

Some of us are visiting actuarial tables to see if we'll be around for it.

I feel really good about the new arena and development around it. [[say 2017 - 2025 timeline).

[Mackinaw]

Well this thread is grossly speculative.

But it highlights an important development if Olympia interests continue to but buildings. If any such buildings are pre-war, Preservation Detroit and co need to activate their campaigns against demo now, because in Olympia's hands they are truly endangered.

[emu steve]

Well this thread is grossly speculative.

But it highlights an important development if Olympia interests continue to but buildings. If any such buildings are pre-war, Preservation Detroit and co need to activate their campaigns against demo now, because in Olympia's hands they are truly endangered.

I drove through that area fairly extensively during the July 4th weekend and quite frankly didn't really see much of historical significance other than what I've already mentioned, e.g., Hotel American, Alhambra Apts, etc.

There are a lot of functional, in-use buildings, e.g., 640 Temple, the building between Temple and Ledyard and 3rd, etc. etc. but no one is suggesting that Ilitch is buying them and want to tear them down.

I believe Ilitch Holding is primarily interested in things around Cass which are near their new arena, the Masonic, Cass Park, etc. - all of which Ilitch Holdings have interest.

I don't see how the Michigan Chronicle building is historic, nor the 37 unit apts [[next door?), or the 3 buildings on the south end of Cass/Ledyard.

My guess is that demolitions would be between Cass and say 2nd or even slightly west, but no further. The area nearest the MC Casino will be down the road development.

AGREE, all of this is SPECULATIVE. What we know is that 1). 3 buildings, believe all between Cass/Ledyard/N. Henry have been bought and 2). Ilitch Holdings are committed to the upkeep of Cass Park.

[Mackinaw]

Setting aside any and all debate about what's "historic," let's consider the absurdity that may be at hand. It is absurd that developers seeking to develop a "district" would purchase currently in-use buildings to remove them, particularly in a regional that is 70% empty already. To make a district, you need rapid and thoughtfully designed infill projects, and you need to give use to buildings/spaces not currently in use. No more, no less. There is no potential justification for removing ANY preexisting buildings, under the stated goal of developing a "district," until that 70% emptiness has been filled up.

[Gistok]

Setting aside any and all debate about what's "historic," let's consider the absurdity that may be at hand. It is absurd that developers seeking to develop a "district" would purchase currently in-use buildings to remove them, particularly in a regional that is 70% empty already. To make a district, you need rapid and thoughtfully designed infill projects, and you need to give use to buildings/spaces not currently in use. No more, no less. There is no potential justification for removing ANY preexisting buildings, under the stated goal of developing a "district," until that 70% emptiness has been filled up.

I absolutely agree.... what about that west Foxtown wasteland that was turned into parking, mainly by the Ilitch team.

There was a perfectly nice [[restored in the last 10 years) 3 story building along Grand River west of Cass that Ilitch paid a bundle for, was bought and razed. It had already been rehabbed.... why did it need to go?? What's there today? An empty lot. Let's use the scheme that is being planned in Brush Park... save the old mansions, and infill. Why does the area around Cass have to be bulldozed in order to build anew? Even if they're not architectural gems.... so what? Midtown has always been a mix of old and new. Why should the Cass Park area be any different?

[Zads07]

I don't see how the Michigan Chronicle building is historic, nor the 37 unit apts [[next door?), or the 3 buildings on the south end of Cass/Ledyard.

Do a little research EMU Steve, just because you may think it doesn't look historic doesn't mean it's not.

Information from Loveland:
Michigan Chronicle Building was built in 1904

[emu steve]

What's the legal definition of historic?

[Zads07]

What's the legal definition of historic?

Here's the link, http://www.yourdictionary.com/historic#americanheritage

1. having importance or significance in history
2. belonging to the past; historical [[see note below)

I'd say that the Michigan Chronicle Building can be recognized as historic, IN MY OPINION, but apparently not yours.

BTW, The Chronicle has been recognized five times as best Black newspaper in the country by the National Newspaper Publishers Association.

[Gorath]

I think the legal definition of an historic building is provided by the National Parks Service. Since getting a property [[or district) listed on a historic register [[be it federal, state or city) is all about getting federal tax credits then developers need to use the NPS definition. I think most developers will use definition "C" when applying for historic designation.

-------------

http://www.nps.gov/nr/publications/b...15/nrb15_2.htm


U.S. Department of the Interior, National Park Service

II. NATIONAL REGISTER CRITERIA FOR EVALUATION


Criteria for Evaluation

The quality of significance in American history, architecture, archeology, engineering, and culture is present in districts, sites, buildings, structures, and objects that possess integrity of location, design, setting, materials, workmanship, feeling, and association, and:

A. That are associated with events that have made a significant contribution to the broad patterns of our history; or

B. That are associated with the lives of significant persons in or past; or

C. That embody the distinctive characteristics of a type, period, or method of construction, or that represent the work of a master, or that possess high artistic values, or that represent a significant and distinguishable entity whose components may lack individual distinction; or

D. That have yielded or may be likely to yield, information important in history or prehistory.

Criteria Considerations

Ordinarily cemeteries, birthplaces, graves of historical figures, properties owned by religious institutions or used for religious purposes, structures that have been moved from their original locations, reconstructed historic buildings, properties primarily commemorative in nature, and properties that have achieved significance within the past 50 years shall not be considered eligible for the National Register. However, such properties will qualify if they are integral parts of districts that do meet the criteria or if they fall within the following categories:

a. A religious property deriving primary significance from architectural or artistic distinction or historical importance; or

b. A building or structure removed from its original location but which is primarily significant for architectural value, or which is the surviving structure most importantly associated with a historic person or event; or

c. A birthplace or grave of a historical figure of outstanding importance if there is no appropriate site or building associated with his or her productive life; or

d. A cemetery that derives its primary importance from graves of persons of transcendent importance, from age, from distinctive design features, or from association with historic events; or

e. A reconstructed building when accurately executed in a suitable environment and presented in a dignified manner as part of a restoration master plan, and when no other building or structure with the same association has survived; or

f. A property primarily commemorative in intent if design, age, tradition, or symbolic value has invested it with its own exceptional significance; or

g. A property achieving significance within the past 50 years if it is of exceptional importance.

-------------------------

Yep, it's a long definition. But you wanted a legal definition and they tend to be long.

[emu steve]

Call me of pedestrian mind, but I didn't get the feeling of "C" when I drove through the neighborhood. Now when I drove by the Masonic Temple "C" just screamed at me.

The Michigan Chronicle building is of a particular style, but I wouldn't hope that the FBI building, the HUD building, etc. [[in D.C.) would be saved because they are of a particular style [[believe it is called 'brutalist'). I think the FBI building should be torn down because of its style.

When I think of "D", e.g., I think of Ford's Theatre in D.C.

Interestingly, when I think of say "C" or "D", I might think of the old Olympia in Detroit. I thought of it as a historic building, but what would one do with it after the Wings left?

[bust]

It seems the Michigan Chronicle is moving. Notably, and thankfully, they are restoring a handsome old building with a lot of character, not building a new one.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...aradise-valley