NY Times - Last Stop on the L Train: Detroit

[MSUguy]

Nice piece by the Times about people relocating from New York to Detroit to open businesses here.


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/12/fa...smtyp=cur&_r=1

[XDetroitr]

Good article... When influential artists and taste-makers continue to come to Detroit, others follow. But Detroit is starting to sound like an artistic gold-rush boom-town. I hope the excitement can continue.

[mwilbert]

One area where Detroit has a competitive advantage is among people who need a lot of space in an at least somewhat urban environment. Many artists fit into that category.

[iheartthed]

One area where Detroit has a competitive advantage is among people who need a lot of space in an at least somewhat urban environment. Many artists fit into that category.

Detroit would also need a high concentration of creative consumers for this to actually be a competitive advantage. That's what made it work in NYC during the 70s - 90s. Depressed prices in urban areas in close proximity to creative consumers.

[ndavies]

Art can be outsourced to Detroit from NYC for exactly the same reason cars can be imported from abroad.

You no longer need to be that close to your customer. We now have the internet and next day delivery.

[TTime]

Art can be outsourced to Detroit from NYC for exactly the same reason cars can be imported from abroad.

You no longer need to be that close to your customer. We now have the internet and next day delivery.

To take your thought process one step further, art can be outsourced from anywhere including places that are cheaper than Detroit. Why not Kansas or Montana or anywhere cheap, USA?

[ndavies]

I agree. It basically boils down to, where does the artist want to make his or her art? Where can they survive doing it? There's a balance in there somewhere.

[bust]

Besides talent and dedication the things artists need most are time to create and a space to create in. The first two requirements must come from the artist him or herself. But Detroit is a great place for the third and fourth. New York isn't.

[EL Jimbo]

To take your thought process one step further, art can be outsourced from anywhere including places that are cheaper than Detroit. Why not Kansas or Montana or anywhere cheap, USA?

Two things,

1. Detroit likely has logistical advantages that Montana and Kansas don't offer.

2. Artists need inspiration. The types of artists who found pre-gentrification Brooklyn inspiring likely wouldn't get that from Montana or Kansas. But they could from Detroit.

[bust]

That said, the people moving from New York to Detroit tend to be creative and entrepreneurial, which are the qualities that probably led them to New York in the first place, but they're not all artists. Meanwhile, one thing I've never heard of [[yet) is someone born and raised in New York who has recently sought to pursue a career in Detroit. But that's just fine. Detroit isn't for everyone.

[bust]

Two things,

1. Detroit likely has logistical advantages that Montana and Kansas don't offer.

2. Artists need inspiration. The types of artists who found pre-gentrification Brooklyn inspiring likely wouldn't get that from Montana or Kansas. But they could from Detroit.

I totally agree. I've met an endless number of people fascinated by Detroit and the amazing history of cultural and industrial production it has produced. I think we tend to take that for granted. Kansas and Montana don't compare.

[TTime]

Two things,

1. Detroit likely has logistical advantages that Montana and Kansas don't offer.

2. Artists need inspiration. The types of artists who found pre-gentrification Brooklyn inspiring likely wouldn't get that from Montana or Kansas. But they could from Detroit.

I'm with you on your first point but your second point is highly subjective.

[bust]

Alphabet City in many ways led the creative renaissance that happened in NYC during the 80's. Look familiar? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vkxFs7Q84c. And of course, you should see it today: https://goo.gl/maps/MFejV.

[TTime]

I totally agree. I've met an endless number of people fascinated by Detroit and the amazing history of cultural and industrial production it has produced. I think we tend to take that for granted. Kansas and Montana don't compare.

I'm sure there are plenty of people in those locations that would take you to task on your argument. Are mountains not a good source of artistic inspiration? How about Farmland? I think a 101 course in American Visual Art History might provide some perspective.

[bust]

I'm sure there are plenty of people in those locations that would take you to task on your argument. Are mountains not a good source of artistic inspiration? How about Farmland? I think a 101 course in American Visual Art History might provide some perspective.

I'm sure there are some who would. But for some of your own perspective, I have a bachelor's degree in Art History from an ivy league university and a master's from an art school almost as good.

[TTime]

I'm sure there are some who would. But for some of your own perspective, I have a degree in Art History from an ivy league university.

I find that very interesting. Would it be safe to assume you prefer more urban based forms of expression to say landscapes? You probably get my point...What serves as inspiration to an artist is as subjective as the end product is to the viewer.

[bust]

I find that very interesting. Would it be safe to assume you prefer more urban based forms of expression to say landscapes? You probably get my point...What serves as inspiration to an artist is as subjective as the end product is to the viewer.

I do fully agree artists find their inspiration all sorts of places, and some artists find theirs in the solace of the countryside. However ones seeking solace in wide open spaces are far less likely to be the types to inspire the creative communities I think people get excited that many other types of artists create. That's not to say certain types of artists are better than others. Just that, more specifically, certain types are better at creating communities that can extend far beyond themselves.

[TTime]

I do fully agree artists find their inspiration all sorts of places, and some artists find theirs in the solace of the countryside. However ones seeking solace in wide open spaces are far less likely to be the types to inspire / help create the creative communities I think people get excited that many other types of artists create. That's not to say certain types of artists are better than others. Just that, more specifically, certain types are better at creating communities that can extend far beyond themselves.

Yeah that makes sense. It is possible that Detroit could become one of those types of communities on a small scale but the pure mass of people and the money in NY make an art scene like Brooklyn possible and without those elements something that Detroit will most likely never become in our lifetimes.

[iheartthed]

Art can be outsourced to Detroit from NYC for exactly the same reason cars can be imported from abroad.

You no longer need to be that close to your customer. We now have the internet and next day delivery.

No, not really. Sales requires relationships with customers. You cannot build a name without being immersed in the network. It's more analogous to the dealership than it is to the factory.

[bust]

Yeah that makes sense. It is possible that Detroit could become one of those types of communities on a small scale but the pure mass of people and the money in NY make an art scene like Brooklyn possible and without those elements something that Detroit will most likely never become in our lifetimes.

I guess I look at this from a more optimistic perspective. And I'm by no means so enamored by Brooklyn, or its art scene any more. And I know it very well.

It's both a blessing and a curse so much money shoots around NY these days. It makes landlords exceedingly greedy, and negligent. It destroys communities as fast as it creates them, and lately, it's not just killing old ones, it's killing new ones before they fully take root.

It's still a great place to sell your work, but the demographics of the people who produce it there more and more have one thing in common: they're rich. That has profound effects on the idiom.

I propose Detroit has an opportunity, and indeed a necessity, to proceed at a much more manageable and organic pace, with an opportunity for a great deal more input from the pre-existing community, and in a way it won't so quickly lose its soul. I'm optimistic the people moving to Detroit are drawn in large part by its history, and that's another reason why compared to Kansas or Montana, it appeals.

[mwilbert]

No, not really. Sales requires relationships with customers. You cannot build a name without being immersed in the network. It's more analogous to the dealership than it is to the factory.

That is why God created art dealers. The dealers are the ones with the main relationships with the customers, and typically the ones doing the promotion. The artist only has to show up occasionally.

However, you are somewhat right. You have to sell yourself to a dealer, and that is easier if you are hanging out where the dealers are, which is a major reason why artists do go to New York. But most artists don't sell that much wherever they are, so they may be better off being where it is easier to work on their art. A lot depends on their priorities. And it isn't that hard to get to New York. You can go to New York a lot for the difference in rents on a 6000 foot space.

[TTime]

I guess I look at this from a more optimistic perspective. And I'm by no means so enamored by Brooklyn, or its art scene any more. And I know it very well.

It's both a blessing and a curse so much money shoots around NY these days. It makes landlords exceedingly greedy, and negligent. It destroys communities as fast as it creates them, and lately, it's not just killing old ones, it's killing new ones before they fully take root.

It's still a great place to sell your work, but the demographics of the people who produce it there more and more have one thing in common: they're rich. That has profound effects on the idiom.

I propose Detroit has an opportunity, and indeed a necessity, to proceed at a much more manageable and organic pace, with an opportunity for a great deal more input from the pre-existing community, and in a way it won't so quickly lose its soul. I'm optimistic the people moving there are drawn in large part by this history, and that's why compared to Kansas or Montana, it appeals.

All fair points and time will tell how this shakes out. My guess is that there are a number of people scattered across the country who are just as passionate about their art scenes as you are yours. It should be an interesting competition to be a part of. Good luck.

[SWMAP]

I see that this article is now one of thee top ten most emailed articles from the NYT today.

I see that the "respect the people who lived here through the 'bad times' crowd" is celebrated in the article.
“One thing anyone moving here needs to know is you have to come into Detroit respecting the people who have been living here through all the city’s struggles,” Ms. Cassells said.
But can anyone please tell me what this actually means, in real day-to-day life here in Detroit? What aren't you supposed to say? What are you supposed to do to demonstrate this nebulous respect for exactly who? How will people know if they have been respected or not respected?
I think this concept is not fleshed out enough.

[iheartthed]

That is why God created art dealers. The dealers are the ones with the main relationships with the customers, and typically the ones doing the promotion. The artist only has to show up occasionally.

However, you are somewhat right. You have to sell yourself to a dealer, and that is easier if you are hanging out where the dealers are, which is a major reason why artists do go to New York. But most artists don't sell that much wherever they are, so they may be better off being where it is easier to work on their art. A lot depends on their priorities. And it isn't that hard to get to New York. You can go to New York a lot for the difference in rents on a 6000 foot space.

Well, you can get to New York a lot easier from Newark than you can from Detroit, and Newark is also a lot less expensive than New York.

Granted, I'm not an artist and there is probably a lot of qualitative reasoning that goes into where the artists end up. But I'm just a skeptic that there is, or will ever be, a substantial movement of New York based artists to Detroit.

[mwilbert]

Well, you can get to New York a lot easier from Newark than you can from Detroit, and Newark is also a lot less expensive than New York.

Granted, I'm not an artist and there is probably a lot of qualitative reasoning that goes into where the artists end up. But I'm just a skeptic that there is, or will ever be, a substantial movement of New York based artists to Detroit.

Fair enough. I have no particular reason to think it will happen either. It is something that might make sense for some artists, that's all. There are lots of reasons why it might not make sense too.