Environmental Justice

[urbanoutdoors]

Environmental justice is such a huge issue here in Detroit and it is one that is often overlooked...

Southwest Detroit hosts many of the cities biggest environmental problems. Representative Talib is hosting a Forum to discuss the issues surrounding these issues. I believe the more the issue is brought up the quicker we can come up with solutions to these problems. The forum will be held at Latino Family services on August 10th from 8:30-3:30. I hope people can attend.
Cheers,
Urban

[Detroitnerd]

Right-wing hot-heads accusing Tlaib of being anti-business in 3, 2, 1 ...

[Retroit]

Present!

[Lorax]

Present!

With brain unaccounted for.

[Retroit]

Brains are overrated. But back to topic...

Using the term "Environmental Justice" is clearly an attempt by a "community organizer" to gather votes by appealing to the "Right-wing Conspiracy Theorists". I'm not anti-environment, but I also realize that the existence of refineries, mines, bridges, and waste facilities are essential for the functioning of modern society. Maybe if this was advertised as an "Environmental Informational Forum" it wouldn't be so dripping with liberalism.

[MIRepublic]

Demanding that these type of businesses be accountable to both their shareholders and the community and environment is not liberal or conservative, it's the only and right thing to do. You'd have not gone to this even if they gussied up the name, for you. People that never want to deal and discuss issues in good faith needn't be catered to, sorry.

[Retroit]

It's not a matter of being catered to, it's a matter of making your biased agenda so blatantly uncompromising that your opponents can't take you seriously.

Are representatives of the "environmental offenders" going to be invited to this forum?

Do the people that live in this area actually expect the refinery, salt mine, bridge, and compost facility to be shut down and moved to another location? Maybe the bridge to Canada can be built in Bloomfield Hills. Would that be environmentally "just" enough?

Where would the people of southwest Detroit like to see these business move to [[along with their jobs)? Would China and India be far enough away?

[MIRepublic]

It's not a matter of being catered to, it's a matter of making your biased agenda so blatantly uncompromising that your opponents can't take you seriously.

Are representatives of the "environmental offenders" going to be invited to this forum?

Do the people that live in this area actually expect the refinery, salt mine, bridge, and compost facility to be shut down and moved to another location? Maybe the bridge to Canada can be built in Bloomfield Hills. Would that be environmentally "just" enough?

Where would the people of southwest Detroit like to see these business move to [[along with their jobs)? Would China and India be far enough away?

And, now, you're just putting words in everyone's mouth. Where does the flier mention "environmental offenders"? What information do you have that gets you to the belief that even most Southwest Detroiters expect [[or want) all of this things to be shut down and moved? How do you get from environmental/community accountability and justice being the most foreceful idea implied, here, to some populist uprising to push all industry out of Southwest Detroit? You're making a helluva lot of assumptions, here.

[Retroit]

That is true. I never heard of the term "Environmental Justice". I presume it means that there is some "injustice" taking place because the industries located in this area are violating the rights of the residents to have environmentally "purity". A pollution-free refinery, salt mine, bridge, or compost can not be built. These businesses have been here for a long time and their presence is obvious. So, why do people live near them? Could it be because of the jobs they provide? Could it be because there are few areas in a major city that do not have pollution?

As I've said before, no one wants to live near landfills, factories, waste water treatment plants, expressways, animal farms, nuclear reactors, etc., but how can our modern way of life exist without these things?

[WolverinesA2]

Brains are overrated. But back to topic...

Using the term "Environmental Justice"

"Environmental justice" is a perfectly apt and widely used academic term. In fact, there are courses entitled "Environmental Justice" that you can take as a law student, public health student, Natural Resources/Environmental studies student, etc. It's not "liberal" anymore than "Criminal Justice" is a liberal term.

Minorities are overrepresented in areas with heavy pollution, heavy traffic, industrial locations, etc. That is a fact. Often times, new projects which carry with them environmental risks of pollution, noise, ground/water contamination, toxic emissions, etc will be located in areas which disproportionately contain people who are poor or are minorities. That is a fact. Therefore, minorities and the poor are at even greater risk of adverse health effects due to their close proximity to industrial sites, highways, transportation hubs and other pollution sources.

[The Recycling Guy]

The fact that southwest Detroit is home to far more than their share of these projects has less to do with geography or demographics than the fact that they have no representation on council. If the District plan is adopted, these areas can elect someone who will help protect them from receiving more than the fair number of these projects.

As far as Urban vs Environmental Projects go, people tend to live where the Jobs are.... Factories and Plants are typically NOT eco friendly...... Detroit needs Jobs, so would you turn down a chemical, battery, or plastics facility to be built in the City? With our international border and first, second, and now third ring suburbs landlocking Detroit in, Where will the Jobs be located? Romulus? Brownstown? Novi?.....

Food for thought.

The Recycling Guy

BEE Green

[Retroit]

Thanks for the verification, WolverineA2. I generally shy away from the contrivances of Academia.

I don't disagree that minorities are more likely to be found near industries, but isn't that what drew, or draws, them here in the first place. It is the availability of low paying, dirty jobs and low priced, dirty homes that provided my ancestors with an opportunity here in America. We've moved on to cleaner areas, but I fear the complete elimination of all dirty industries from Detroit or America will do great harm to our economy. People in third world countries would rejoice at the privilege of living near these dirty industries.

We can't all reside amidst the arbors and ivy, can we?

[Mikeg]

The fact that southwest Detroit is home to far more than their share of these projects has less to do with geography or demographics than the fact that they have no representation on council.

You've got to be kidding about the geography part, right?

The laws of physics and economics dictate that a city's sewerage plant will always be located on a waterway downstream of their water intake and at the lowest ground elevation in the district it serves.

A salt mine tends to be located where the salt is closest to the surface of the earth.

The Solvay Process for making soda ash used the readily available salt brine plus limestone from upstate that was delivered by lake carriers, the same ships that delivered the limestone, coal and iron ore needed by the steelmakers who lined the shores of the Detroit River near the mouth of the Rouge River. The steelmakers chose that location because of the ready access to the deep river which allowed the low cost delivery of their raw materials by bulk carriers and the shipping of their finished product by either ship or the nearby railroads.

Of course the railroads were nearby because the westerly bank of the Detroit River provided the shortest route from Detroit to the main east-west rail lines connecting Chicago and New York. The access to the major railroad routes also attracted large numbers of other manufacturing companies to the SW Detroit and downriver areas.

Here is the Delray HoF thread for those who want to see some photos and learn a little about its history.

[The Recycling Guy]

I agree with your point about older, existing industry and infrastructure, but Marathon and the proposed new Cement Factory for that area were/are being placed there for my aforementioned reason of representation.

The State Fairground Area has plenty of space for a cement factory or Butane depot.....

But that ain't gonna happen.

TRG

[Mikeg]

....Marathon and the proposed new Cement Factory for that area were/are being placed there for my aforementioned reason of representation.

The State Fairground Area has plenty of space for a cement factory or Butane depot.....

But that ain't gonna happen.

You're right, that won't happen but it's because the petroleum pipelines and Detroit River docks are too far away - not "lack of representation".

My suggestion would be to de-emphasize the "environmental injustice" claims and to focus on enforcement of existing/improved zoning and environmental emissions regulations.

[mishmish]

People in third world countries would rejoice at the privilege of living near these dirty industries.- REtroit

Retroit you have serious gaps in your knowledge if you think this is true. The fact about environmental justice is that poor people and people of color deal with a disproportional amount of exposure to toxic chemicals WITHOUT receiving the benefits or resources derived from their use. That is the main problem- sure you can talk about jobs until your face is blue, but to be real the jobs that exist in Bhopal India are not going to the people who were exposed to Union Carbide [[DOW Chemical) contamination spill that killed 10,000- and there has yet to be any clean up- do you know where Dow is located, do you know where their investors live? This is a glaring and extreme example. Look at oil extraction, uranium extraction, coal extraction, aluminum extraction. Bet you have never seen it in person but you benefit from consuming it everyday- which many feel is their right as a member of the first world.
In Detroit, those who live around major industry don't actually have the jobs within the factories, but they do inhale tons and tons of cancer causing chemicals. And it's not like people don't want to move, many of them can't due to historical red lining, racism and directed housing preferencing- but many people love their community and choose not to abandon their communities and traditions for the cultural void called the suburbs which benefits from having major industry in Detroit without accepting any responsibility. Environmental justice asks those who benefit from industrial production to take responsibility for their EXTERNALITIES.
Ask yourself retroit, where does your trash go? Where does your shit go? Where does your gas come from? How is it possible that when you flip the switch the fucking lights come on? Because you are benefitting from someone else's pain- and then reconsider your position on environmental justice.

[Corktown Mark]

mikeg thank you for offering an analysis that does not get all caught up in the latest fashion such as council by district. District elections are being offered as the solution to every ill from poor digestion and irregularity to political corruption.

[The Recycling Guy]

Improved zoning isn't the reason that the fairgrounds site isn't being talked about for anything other than retail......

Ferndale and the Palmer woods neighborhood would fight and have the money to fight anything they don't want....plus the representation n the area that will fight anything unwanted.

[Retroit]

My trash goes to the landfills in white rural areas [[and not to the incinerator in Detroit, which I believe only handles waste from the City of Detroit). My shit goes to the water treatment plant adjacent to white suburbs, albeit in Detroit. My gasoline comes from any number of refineries around the country, one of which happens to be in Detroit [[although I rarely buy gas refined by Marathon, which is not very far from white suburbs). My electricity comes from any number of power plants, many of which are in white rural areas. If anyone should be complaining about Detroit's air quality, it should be the mostly white people of Windsor who live downwind of Detroit.

Despite this, I don't deny that it may indeed be true that poor people of color are more exposed to pollution than others. But I think it is misleading [[and pandering for votes) to imply that this is some sort of conspiracy, when it is merely the fact that dirty industries tend to congregate in the least desirable part of town [[initially due to reasons mentioned by Mikeg) which is also the least expensive place to live for poor people of color.

If poor people of color were segregated from pollution producing entities, they would probably complain that it was due to a conspiracy to exclude them from the financial windfall that comes from those entities.

The Bhopal accident was an accident, much like Exxon Valdez, Chernobyl, etc. It is not going to deter China, India, etc. from allowing open borders to anyone that would like to bring industry and jobs to their countries. I don't hear Middle Easterners complaining about oil extraction, Russians complaining about uranium extraction, etc. Could it be because people in these countries are not pandered for votes from the Environmentalist Left?

[j to the jeremy]

Retroit, the incinerator in Detroit ships in Trash from the Suburbs, and from Canada because it is too big to turn on without trash from outside the city. Recently this became controversial in Toronto, when it came out that some of the city's recycling was being burned in Detroit instead. [[at the end of this article- http://www.thestar.com/article/661076)

The "Environmental Justice" description definitely fits in that case, as well as the Marathon Expansion. That project, while probably not healthy for SW Detroit, is much less healthy for Canada, because it will be processing oil from Tar Sands in Alberta. The process needed to convert this to useable oil creates three times the greenhouse emissions as crude and completely destroys the natural forests the sands lie under.

In both cases, people who are consumers of the services these companies and cities provide have felt misled and misinformed, which is why the word "Justice" is used.

And if you think that liberal or "green" people don't understand the amount our society relies on these companies, you're wrong. That's why it's so important to hold them accountable, and push them to develop better, cleaner ways to go about their business.