A Canadian doctor on US healthcare

**barnesfoto** · August-06-09, 10:03 AM

Universal health insurance is on the American policy agenda for the fifth time since World War II. In the 1960s, the U.S. chose public coverage for only the elderly and the very poor, while Canada opted for a universal program for hospitals and physicians' services. As a policy analyst, I know there are lessons to be learned from studying the effect of different approaches in similar jurisdictions. But, as a Canadian with lots of American friends and relatives, I am saddened that Americans seem incapable of learning them.

Our countries are joined at the hip. We peacefully share a continent, a British heritage of representative government and now ownership of GM. And, until 50 years ago, we had similar health systems, healthcare costs and vital statistics.

more: http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...0,538126.story

**Detroitej72** · August-06-09, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by barnesfoto

But, as a Canadian with lots of American friends and relatives, I am saddened that Americans seem incapable of learning them.

As long as folks listen to politicians who are bought and paid for by the big insurance companies, and the scare tactics used by the radical right wing media, America will not see any real change.

Every person I know from Europe can't understand why the U.S. is reluctant to offer a universal health care program for their citizens.

Unfortunatly, most people here don't bother to look into facts for themselves and rely on talking points that the activist right wing clowns on AM radio feed them on a daily basis.

**sturge** · August-06-09, 11:01 AM

My wife is from Sweden. She laughs at how scared we seem to be about it.

Our dental is better though. For some odd reason they only cover it for kids and the elderly.

**rb336** · August-06-09, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by sturge

My wife is from Sweden. She laughs at how scared we seem to be about it.

Our dental is better though. For some odd reason they only cover it for kids and the elderly.

just curious --

how many here have dental? I do, but I swear it covers virtually nothing beyond half the cost of the cleaning/check up. taking care of a boken tooth cost me virtually the same thing now as when I had to pay for it out-of-pocket a few years back. ditto for optical

**Bigb23** · August-06-09, 01:53 PM

How can we even think of abandoning the best health care in the world for this:

On coverage, all Canadians have insurance for hospital and physician services. There are no deductibles or co-pays. Most provinces also provide coverage for programs for home care, long-term care, pharmaceuticals and durable medical equipment, although there are co-pays.

On the U.S. side, 46 million people have no insurance, millions are underinsured and healthcare bills On coverage, all Canadians have insurance for hospital and physician services. There are no deductibles or co-pays. Most provinces also provide coverage for programs for home care, long-term care, pharmaceuticals and durable medical equipment, although there are co-pays.

On the U.S. side, 46 million people have no insurance, millions are underinsured and healthcare bills bankrupt more than 1 million Americans every year.

I'm tired of the right wing talking points, about how bad the sociallized medicine countries have it. My medical care has ruined me with and without medical insurance. It's time we take the profit motivated tests out of medicine and get back to healthy, basic, needed medical care. My ex Doctor and his nurses were sent on way too many Carribbean cruises by the pharma companies for uneeded prescriptions.

ccbatson · August-06-09, 02:55 PM

You might be able to find one or two paid Canadians to prop up their failing system as a good one. That will not convince the bulk of Canadians and Americans that limitations of choice and access are a good thing.

Better to have a costly choice, then no choice at all.

**Detroitej72** · August-06-09, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by ccbatson

You might be able to find one or two paid Canadians to prop up their failing system as a good one. That will not convince the bulk of Canadians and Americans that limitations of choice and access are a good thing.

Better to have a costly choice, then no choice at all.

Dude, you need to stop letting the right wing nuts indoctrinate you, free yourself from being a ditto head.

Every person I know from Europe and Canada praises their health care coverage. I'm sure the biased folks at Fox have paid their Canadian dissenters well, but the fact is the majority of Canadians are happy with their coverage.

And all my neighbors from Europe, including my in-laws, can't understand why Rush, Hannitty, Beck, etc constantly lie about European coverage being so lousy, when in fact, they all are quite happy with it.

**alsodave** · August-06-09, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by rb336

just curious --

how many here have dental? I do, but I swear it covers virtually nothing beyond half the cost of the cleaning/check up. taking care of a boken tooth cost me virtually the same thing now as when I had to pay for it out-of-pocket a few years back. ditto for optical

Our medical is great, but it's almost not worth having our dental and optical plans. At least something is better than nothing

**oladub** · August-06-09, 06:08 PM

My Ontario relatives like their health care system. Sometimes they have to wait to see a specialist but that happens here too. But what is the point of bringing up the very affordable Canadian system at a time when our President is expanding our present unaffordable system?

**eriedearie** · August-06-09, 09:46 PM

We're happy with the Ontario health plan. I don't understand what is so difficult. Why can't the US look at the Ontario plan and just follow its path. Is it because it's tried and true and the US needs some "busy" work? Why reinvent the wheel? It's working in Ontario. There's no need to make it that complicated!

ccbatson · August-06-09, 11:59 PM

Young and healthy people not using healthcare thing their health care is just great, even if they don't have any. Just don't try and use it, then it is a different story.

**Bobl** · August-07-09, 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitej72

As long as folks listen to politicians who are bought and paid for by the big insurance companies, and the scare tactics used by the radical right wing media, America will not see any real change.

Every person I know from Europe can't understand why the U.S. is reluctant to offer a universal health care program for their citizens.

Unfortunatly, most people here don't bother to look into facts for themselves and rely on talking points that the activist right wing clowns on AM radio feed them on a daily basis.

I agree. As frequent visitors to Canada, my partner and I have had two first hand experiences with the Canadian health care system:

First, while staying at a cottage on Lake Huron, we drove one of the adjacent cottagers to the hospital after a bad fall. His speech was deteriorating as we drove to the hospital, and we feared we made a big mistake by not calling an ambulance.
We were met at the front door of the hospital after we called on the way. He was immediately admitted, with numerous tests, including an MRI that day. Released the next day. No fees. No interview. Just had to show a health card. Turned out that he was not seriously injured and completed his vacation.

Second, while visiting the Pinery Provincial Park, my partner felt pressure and pain in her chest, and "felt faint". Luckily, there were some fire and rescue people at the concession area giving some kind of demonstration. When we approached them, they immediately arranged for an ambulance to the hospital in Exeter. Again, numerous tests were given, including an enzyme test that the physician explained would suggest or eliminate the diagnosis of a "heart attack". Nine hours later, it was determined that there was no heart damage, and she was released with a recomendation that she see her physician at home ASAP. She now feels that it was a "panic attack" after I suggested a canoe rental.
We were billed thirty five dollars by the attending physician. Nothing for the hospital services!

If Canada and most of Europe can do better, why listen to the insurance and pharmaceutical lobbies and their puppets who run the show in the U.S. now?
Informed discussion should replace the scare tactics of those whose attitude is "I've got my insurance, screw the rest of you."

ccbatson · August-07-09, 12:16 AM

An MRI? in Canada, within hours? Unheard of...lucky for your friend if true...unlucky for everyone else who missed that rare opportunity.

**rb336** · August-07-09, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by ccbatson

An MRI? in Canada, within hours? Unheard of...lucky for your friend if true...unlucky for everyone else who missed that rare opportunity.

ah, yes, yet again Bats spewing about what he doesn't know, shooting from the dogma rather than the facts.

**elganned** · August-07-09, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by ccbatson

You might be able to find one or two paid Canadians to prop up their failing system as a good one. That will not convince the bulk of Canadians and Americans that limitations of choice and access are a good thing.

So, you're saying our present system offers unlimited choice and universal access?

Better to have a costly choice, then no choice at all.

Unless you can't afford the costly choice, in which case it is functionally identical to no choice.

**gazhekwe** · August-07-09, 09:00 AM

If I recall correctly, the vision was for Single Payer to be an OPTION. There is nothing requiring reduction of choice for those who have private or employer provided insurance. Keep your great insurance and keep paying for it. If they become uncompetitive then make your switch according to your choice.

The opposers keep trying to blur the vision and force an alternate reality that single payer will be the only option and "the government" will force everyone into some eugenic purgatory. Look at Canada, Britain, Germany, Sweden. With health plans that are readily accepted by their citizens, they are doing pretty well. And remember, it is work, but we ARE the government.

**lghart** · August-07-09, 09:50 AM

I'm an American now living in Germany since last November, and for 15 months previously in Switzerland and can give some relevant thoughts on several systems. I am going to have an operation in 2 weeks that I have been putting off because of cost for several years. I the USA, [[specifically in NYC with United Health Care insurance) it was going to cost me about 3-5000 dollars as an outpatient procedue, in Switzerland I had the mandated private insurance and it would have cost me about 1000 dollars as an outpatient procedue, and now in Germany I have had more analysis and preventive care tests than I have EVER had in the USA, and on top of that it is all FREE and my operation will be covered with 3 days of hospital stay mandatory.

All the clinics and doctors are very professional, and so far I have only seen doctors, not the assistants so prevalent in the US system.

Of course this is with a big jump in taxes in Germany and the choice that Germany has made long term.

The choices are out there, it is actually quite simple, but demonizing and politicizing this issue and others does not improve the USA, it will only exacerbate and prolong the decline in American living standards.

**lghart** · August-07-09, 09:54 AM

And another thing....that always pisses me off about conservatives...."The governement can't run anything well"......hmmmmmmm, so you think our militatary is inept, the VA, NASA, research institutes, unversities, etc. where so much is run by OUR government everyday of your life, sounds like some things are run very well.

**rb336** · August-07-09, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by gazhekwe

And remember, it is work, but we ARE the government.

yes, something to which the right would like to put an end

**mjs** · August-07-09, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitej72

As long as folks listen to politicians who are bought and paid for by the big insurance companies, and the scare tactics used by the radical right wing media, America will not see any real change.

Every person I know from Europe can't understand why the U.S. is reluctant to offer a universal health care program for their citizens.

Unfortunatly, most people here don't bother to look into facts for themselves and rely on talking points that the activist right wing clowns on AM radio feed them on a daily basis.

Problem here is that the politicians pushing for this specific universal health care program are the ones who are receiving the highest donations. Thats the facts. Its been covered ad naseum in other threads on this topic.

If this bill passes, health care spending will go up as will the profits of the HMOs and drug companies. Since I'm not the one bitching about the rising costs, I'll be fine with it knowing that more people are covered.

I'm in excellent health with a healthy lifestyle so statistically speaking, I'll get screwed in every scenario. Of course, I get to feel better, look better, move better, live better, and live longer so I'll let others take advantage of the system even as they cry about how unfair live is to them.

**gibran** · August-07-09, 11:03 AM

My dental sucks ...i have a choice between ten providers and the are at elast 13 miles from home or I wouldn't send my dog to them...the only thing they cover is cleanings> Oh well at least they only will charge me 100 dollars a tooth [[after insurance ) to pull the old ones out...after a year.

**gibran** · August-07-09, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by HitsvilleUSofA

Can't be all that great when all of our doctors in the states emigrate here for a "real job" because they cannot earn a real living as an MD anywhere else.

show me the facts if your talking about Europe...it seems to what I have seen is that many are just wanting to learn our techniques that we rarely can afford ..try getting specilaized care from an expert in another state..I have seen to many people settle for treatment here when the best is across state lines...

what you paln to cover all of our citizens or don't you guys really care that 2700 people die each year ...and that's just the documented ones...

**ThaFuzz** · August-07-09, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by ccbatson

An MRI? in Canada, within hours? Unheard of...lucky for your friend if true...unlucky for everyone else who missed that rare opportunity.

No, Bobl just blatantly lied to support her evil liberal, socialist talking point.

Care to point us in the direction of statistics that support your, um..."assertions" that Canada's health care system is awful? Oh right - you can't, because they don't exist. Go back to believing that a benign cyst is the same thing as an aggressive tumor.

**elganned** · August-07-09, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by HitsvilleUSofA

Sorry, when it is clear cut, when all people are treated equally under this bill, when we can be positive there will be no rationing nor any favortism played against the people then Ill sign on to it.

Wake up, 10-watt! There is already rationing and favoritism going on; it's based on income. If you make six figures a year, you can afford to go to the doctor. If you don't, you can't.

Right now, it looks like a Nazi era concentration camp package when its coupled with Mengele's[[Emanuels) essay on who should be favored for medical treatment and who is disposable.

So you think the insurance companies do a better job of deciding who's disposable than the government will? 'Cause that's just what they're doing now. If you develop a chronic problem and then lose your current coverage, you have a "pre-existing condition" and the insurance companies won't touch you. In other words, you're disposable.

Wow, I feel like we are back in the first 1/4 of the 20th century in Europe.

If we were, you'd be dead of typhus, or dysentery, or scarlet fever, or some other infectuous disease because you wouldn't be able to afford a doctor. Something you seem willing to return to. Good luck with that.

**rb336** · August-07-09, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by HitsvilleUSofA

I want everyone to be covered also but, like I stated in another thread this jumping into a blind bill without knowing what the hell is in it is ridiculous.
It also does not help E. Emanuel is nazi like to say the least and he helped write the damn thing.
Sorry, when it is clear cut, when all people are treated equally under this bill, when we can be positive there will be no rationing nor any favortism played against the people then Ill sign on to it.
Right now, it looks like a Nazi era concentration camp package when its coupled with Mengele's[[Emanuels) essay on who should be favored for medical treatment and who is disposable.
Sorry, I didn't sign on with the Nazis and I certainly won't sign on too this until the people themselves are reassured that the fascists in charge with all their circumvented bullshit czars and all are harmless.
Just way too many creepy paralels compared to other historical atrocities for me to try to start listing.
Wow, I feel like we are back in the first 1/4 of the 20th century in Europe.
Gives me the creeps.

it cracks me up how these wanna-be jackboots haven't a clue what they are talking about regarding fascists and/or nazis. i suggest they read Shiler's rise and fall of the third reich. if they are honest with themselves, they will see every tactic the American Right is using came straight out of the brown shirt playbook