Bedrock: Killing Detroit Since 2010.

[jw101]

The other day, I had a conversation with a Bedrock employee. Apparently, the company HAD plans to build a restaurant on top of One Woodward [[5/3 Bank Building), but the city wouldn't let them. Why? THEY WERE GOING TO ROB PEOPLE! Bedrock and Gilbert has great plans, but, let's jump into reality- seriously? THIS IS DETROIT! A city built on the working class, and today is one of the poorest, most dangerous cities in the country.

He's playing hometown hero by buying up everything and filling the buildings up, that's good. What's NOT good is luring the most expensive independent retailers he can find, like Punch Bowl [[talk about some serious $$$), or John V [[$5K for a coat? REALLY?). Then, to top it all off, they charge downtown residents THROUGH the nose, and FOR WHAT? The city is still half empty, bad crime, and is ranked 92nd for residents' happiness.

I always used to tell myself that I'd spend the rest of my life living in Detroit- now, I'm planning to move to Seattle, where the rents [[slightly higher than downtown Detroit, about $1,400 for a 1 bedroom) are actually worth it.

[Mind field]

You're delusional if you think that Seattle rents are only [[slightly higher) than Detroits. Bedrock is not killing Detroit. The city needs all the help it can get, and if people with larger checking accounts will patronize businesses in the city, then good for them, that's not hurting anyone. Impoverished Detroiter's will still have plenty of options to shop at dollar stores, and other stores that cater to a lower income clientele. I'm sick of people with your mentality who say that what's happening downtown is somehow bad. What's the alternative? Business as usual?

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

IF you find a Seattle one bedroom for $1,400, it will probably be about the size of a Detroit studio, and around $3 per square foot v. less than $2

I've never heard of anyone wanting to move out here to the west coast because Detroit caters too much to the wealthy.

[401don]

Who exactly did he rob? Obviously not their customers, since clearly according to you there's no market so they won't have any. Must be he held a gun to the head of these retailers and said "You must open downtown and if you do any research I'll shoot!

[ABetterDetroit]

Your still here? You have been talking about leaving forever, what's the point if you don't do it jw?

[ParisianLesion]

I honestly have no idea what to say to this. My only guess here is that you are very young and have never been anywhere in your entire life. Good luck in Seattle, Chief.

[davewindsor]

Wow.

Ever thought of getting a Nexus card?

For around $700 CDN, you can get a really nice one-bedroom in downtown Windsor within blocks of the tunnel or the tunnel bus.

[Danny]

The other day, I had a conversation with a Bedrock employee. Apparently, the company HAD plans to build a restaurant on top of One Woodward [[5/3 Bank Building), but the city wouldn't let them. Why? THEY WERE GOING TO ROB PEOPLE! Bedrock and Gilbert has great plans, but, let's jump into reality- seriously? THIS IS DETROIT! A city built on the working class, and today is one of the poorest, most dangerous cities in the country.

He's playing hometown hero by buying up everything and filling the buildings up, that's good. What's NOT good is luring the most expensive independent retailers he can find, like Punch Bowl [[talk about some serious $$$), or John V [[$5K for a coat? REALLY?). Then, to top it all off, they charge downtown residents THROUGH the nose, and FOR WHAT? The city is still half empty, bad crime, and is ranked 92nd for residents' happiness.

I always used to tell myself that I'd spend the rest of my life living in Detroit- now, I'm planning to move to Seattle, where the rents [[slightly higher than downtown Detroit, about $1,400 for a 1 bedroom) are actually worth it.

Dan Gilbert came to Detroit with a vision and plan. He develop its long awaited vacant buildings and skyscrapers that nobody wants. He's doing an excellent job luring his hip cool millennial generated folks into Downtown [[Gilberttown Detroit) and start their business. Finally Detroit is getting regional job growth in 50 years. Coleman Young, Kwame Kilpatrick, Ken Cockerel and Dave Bing and other city leaders should have done that. But they too busy making a fool of themselves.

You better stop commenting on your tomfoolery remarks about Gilbert's regional progress. He's here to stay and in the buying spree. Until the time is right that he could sell some of his buildings to those who want to invest in the city. If you don't like his wonderland just leave! Go to some hip cool city where black folks are never welcomed like "Seattle, WA., Portland, OR, Minneapolis, MN or Los Angeles, CA!"

[mwilbert]

The other day, I had a conversation with a Bedrock employee. Apparently, the company HAD plans to build a restaurant on top of One Woodward [[5/3 Bank Building), but the city wouldn't let them. Why? THEY WERE GOING TO ROB PEOPLE! Bedrock and Gilbert has great plans, but, let's jump into reality- seriously? THIS IS DETROIT! A city built on the working class, and today is one of the poorest, most dangerous cities in the country.

He's playing hometown hero by buying up everything and filling the buildings up, that's good. What's NOT good is luring the most expensive independent retailers he can find, like Punch Bowl [[talk about some serious $$$), or John V [[$5K for a coat? REALLY?). Then, to top it all off, they charge downtown residents THROUGH the nose, and FOR WHAT? The city is still half empty, bad crime, and is ranked 92nd for residents' happiness.

I always used to tell myself that I'd spend the rest of my life living in Detroit- now, I'm planning to move to Seattle, where the rents [[slightly higher than downtown Detroit, about $1,400 for a 1 bedroom) are actually worth it.

I don't think this makes any sense. There is lots of space downtown for other retailers if they want to be there. And as far as I know, up until now Bedrock hasn't done any residential, so they aren't charging downtown residents for anything. Also, the state of the rest of the city isn't really on Bedrock either.

If you move to Seattle, I hope you like it better.

[canuck]

High end retail doesn't take away from poor folks, all cities need choice. Detroit's downtown was very well equipped for years. Heck, it had one of the largest department stores in the world.

Gilbert and others like him are only trying to give that shot in the arm that can revive the patient. The metro area of Detroit comprises plenty of very wealthy individuals that otherwise spend their money in Chicago or New York if the Somerset Mall or other high end shops don't carry the goods they are after.

[detroitbob]

Enjoy Seattle. Good luck locking in that rate on the one bedroom apartment...it won't be downtown, guarantee you.

[ndavies]

According to CNNs cost of living calculator, http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/cost-of-living/ [[Isn't the web wonderful!)

Seattle's housing costs 81% more than Detroit's. If You earn $50,000 here , you would need $66,649 to live the same.

[Scottathew]

OP is complaining that Gilbert\Bedrock is investing in Detroit and as a result is drawing folks with higher incomes to shop and live in Downtown?

What does the OP want for Detroit? Liquor stores downtown selling loosies?

Gilbert is creating a middle class in Detroit.


Some people won't be happy no matter what, it's best for them to be ignored.

[stasu1213]

Let's face it. Downtown Detroit needed revitalizing for years. I was one who didn't believe that one man shouldn't have a monopoly on a great area such as downtown. I still have that thought. However, Gilbert is bringing life back into these buildings while Ilitch, Moroun, and others just sat on the buildings they had owned for years waiting for someone else to make it happen. Detroit has plenty of Dollar Stores, liquor stores, and retail throughout the city that cater to the poor. The Avenue of Fashion, Detroit's once most exclusive avenue, presently cater to urban trends and the lower income.

[Cliffy]

This makes no sense. Good luck in Seattle. Hope you have a good job lined up.

[313WX]

If you're young, without kids, haven't really settled on a career and finished college, there's no good reason to stay behind in Michigan unless you're trying to be some type of martyr.

With Michigan being much older and poorer, the glory days [[1940s-early 1970s and the 1990s) aren't coming back. In fact, things are going to get much worse once the Auto Industry collapses again when the brunt of the next recession is felt later this year.

[stasu1213]

Detroit is trying to sher itself from being totally reliant on the big 3. It's happening slowly but surely

[mwilbert]

If you're young, without kids, haven't really settled on a career and finished college, there's no good reason to stay behind in Michigan unless you're trying to be some type of martyr.

With Michigan being much older and poorer, the glory days [[1940s-early 1970s and the 1990s) aren't coming back. In fact, things are going to get much worse once the Auto Industry collapses again when the brunt of the next recession is felt later this year.

I really think this is wrong. Michigan is a perfectly good place to live if you have [[or don't need) a job. Certainly some people might want to live someplace else for a lot of different reasons, but you hardly have to be martyr to stick around.

Also, very little chance of a recession this year. But I can guarantee there will be one someday, and Michigan will do worse than most places when it comes. However, the next one is very unlikely to be as bad as the last.

[Detroitnerd]

I think everybody who is 35, educated, and interested in living in a vibrant city should leave.

I wish they would stay, but I know the people in positions of authority in "Southeastern Michigan" will never, ever give them what they want. So, for that reason, they should go somewhere that delivers what they want.

For those who choose to stay, understand that living here is like being in an abusive relationship. Again and again, you will find our local leaders fucking you over, only to whisper sweet nothings in the morning. And it will never, ever end. Leave now while you have your dignity. And don't look back.

[313WX]

I really think this is wrong. Michigan is a perfectly good place to live if you have [[or don't need) a job.

Too bad the average American [[not just the uber-wealthy or retired seniors) need decent paying jobs to survive. Those have been virtually extinct in Michigan for the last decade or so, unless you're lucky enough to be directly hired by a Big 3 Automaker and survive their cyclical mass layoffs.

Also, very little chance of a recession this year. However, the next one is very unlikely to be as bad as the last.

We'll have to agree to disagree there. The rest of 1st quarter earnings will be coming in this week, but I did hear that GE recorded a $13 billion dollar lost for the 1st Quarter. That's certainly not what I would expect from a huge multinational company in now a 5 year economic recovery.

Also, credit application rejections have reached unprecedented levels in the last few months, surpassing the amount of rejections we saw prior to the 2007-2009 recession. That amount of liquidity tightening almost always signals a recession.

Not to mention we probably still haven't seen the full blow out of the oil crash. 100,000 job and counting have been lost so far, and again the 1st quarter earnings have yet to come out [[which will probably be a blood bath in that industry).

If I were a betting man, 2015 is going to be the beginning of a rough couple of years, and based on the fact that we never did recover much from the last recession [[considering that debt, wage and labor participation/employment numbers are still as bad as they were during the peak of the last recession), there's no doubt it's going to be worse.

[313WX]

What has helped the Auto Industry up to this point, or at least prevent it from shrinking further, has been subprime loans.

For example, a person I know somehow managed to get Ford Credit to finance a car for them at 3.9% interest a couple years ago. The only caveat is that they're retired and receiving government benefits. In normal circumstances, and in hindsight, there's no way they should have received financing that easy or cheap for a new car. But instead, Ford Motor Company was more than happy to pay for their new Ford vehicle [[including whatever cut the dealer would get). In Ford's books, it's technically recorded as a sale even though it's not actually money in their pocket to spend until this individual pays off the entire loan.

Just like with the subprime home mortgages, that honeymoon will soon come to an end as well, and it won't be pretty.

[SyGolden48236]

Without the investments made by Mr. Gilbert Detroit's downtown would still be a rotting corpse, which is exactly what it was 10 years ago.

Many other cities out there would gladly welcome Dan and his investment capital with open arms.

[mwilbert]

Too bad the average American [[not just the uber-wealthy or retired seniors) need decent paying jobs to survive. Those have been virtually extinct in Michigan for the last decade or so, unless you're lucky enough to be directly hired by a Big 3 Automaker and survive their cyclical mass layoffs.



We'll have to agree to disagree there. The rest of 1st quarter earnings will be coming in this week, but I did hear that GE recorded a $13 billion dollar lost for the 1st Quarter. That's certainly not what I would expect from a huge multinational company in now a 5 year economic recovery.

Also, credit application rejections have reached unprecedented levels in the last few months, surpassing the amount of rejections we saw prior to the 2007-2009 recession. That amount of liquidity tightening almost always signals a recession.

Not to mention we probably still haven't seen the full blow out of the oil crash. 100,000 job and counting have been lost so far, and again the 1st quarter earnings have yet to come out [[which will probably be a blood bath in that industry).

If I were a betting man, 2015 is going to be the beginning of a rough couple of years, and based on the fact that we never did recover much from the last recession [[considering that debt, wage and labor participation/employment numbers are still as bad as they were during the peak of the last recession), there's no doubt it's going to be worse.

There are a lot of things that are misleading or incorrect in here. Michigan has actually added a ton of jobs since the bottom of the recession, probably something like 250,000 of them. They aren't all ill-paid. Wages have risen slowly, but they have risen, and debt levels are much lower than they were at the bottom. There are different ways to look at it, but I would suggest this graph https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/TDSP is illustrative. GE made an operating profit of $2.8 billion in the first quarter; it showed a loss on the sale of its financial business, which isn't really any kind of indicator of the health of the economy.

Anyway, the great thing about predictions for this year is that we will know the answer in less than a year.

[313WX]

Michigan has actually added a ton of jobs since the bottom of the recession, probably something like 250,000 of them.

Yes and no.

Although 250,000 jobs have been created since the last recession, nearly 1 millions jobs were lost during the last recession. So we're still at a net loss. It would take at least another 5 years of this same tepid rate of recovery to get back to where we were before 2007-2009, let alone back to the era of "money growing on trees" during the 1990s.

This is assuming no additional increase in the size of working-age adults, no further offshoring/outsourcing of jobs due to cost cutting and no additional recessions [[which would all be unwise assumptions to make IMO).

They aren't all ill-paid.

Well sure, not ALL of them are ill-paid. Not ALL politicians are crooks either.

The issue is most of the jobs lost during the last recession WERE good-paying and secure with benefits, while most of the jobs that have been created in the wake of the last recession have been insecure and low-paying with no benefits.

Remember American Axle and Manufacturing? At one time, thousands of very happy UAW workers earning $20/hr+ with Cadillac health care benefits worked at their HQ in Hamtramck [[because actually AAM was once a subsidiary of the once largest company in the world, General Motors). When the bottom fell out in the 2007-2009, instead of negotiating a new contract with these workers, AAM decided to close shop entirely and move to Mexico to pay foreigners cents on the dollar to manufacture their goods. The UAW workers at the Hamtramck all subsequently lost their jobs, and no more of these jobs were being created for folks who would be entering the work force in Michigan

Several years later, they've brought SOME investment back to Michigan and have hired 600 extremely desperate people. The problem? The jobs only pay $10.50/hr in 2015 dollars and no longer offer Cadillac health care benefits. And despite the laughable compensation they're getting paid, these workers still forced to join the UAW because of a contract in place until 2017.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the...pay-2013-08-20

A new face of U.S. manufacturing is on display in Three Rivers, Mich., a small city south of Kalamazoo midway between Detroit and Chicago. American Axle, a major supplier to the auto industry, is in the midst of hiring 600 additional workers to produce new generation drive trains...

...The new starting wage at American Axle translates into an annual salary of under $25,000, not enough to sustain a middle-class lifestyle. Tom Lowry, Three Rivers’ mayor who runs a local bookstore, admits, “it is hard to survive on the $10 to $14 wage being offered at American Axle.” A single person, he says, might make it on that, but not a family...

Furthermore, at least 1/3 of these jobs created since the last recession are temporary or from self-employment. Out of these temp/self-employment positions, only 7% become direct hire. On average, these jobs are only paying $25K per year...

http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...ment/20941729/

These people of course are scared to death of spending the little income they're earning [[which also prevents a true economic recovery) because they know their jobs won't be around long and they're not even making enough to cover their bills. That's not a sustainable way to build a healthy economy.

Now, is it good that, the economy has stop shrinking for a bit? Absolutely. But at the same time, I'm not going to put on blinders and assume happy days are here again either. The glory days aren't coming back, and I'm just being brutally honest in that unless you're content with having a far lower standard of living and quality of life than your parents and grandparents had in Michigan, it's not a bad idea to get out now.

[mwilbert]

Yes and no.

Although 250,000 jobs have been created since the last recession, nearly 1 millions jobs were lost during the last recession. So we're still at a net loss. It would take at least another 5 years of this same tepid rate of recovery to get back to where we were before 2007-2009, let alone back to the era of "money growing on trees" during the 1990s.

This is assuming no additional increase in the size of working-age adults, no further offshoring/outsourcing of jobs due to cost cutting and no additional recessions [[which would all be unwise assumptions to make IMO).



Well sure, not ALL of them are ill-paid. Not ALL politicians are crooks either.

The issue is most of the jobs lost during the last recession WERE good-paying and secure with benefits, while most of the jobs that have been created in the wake of the last recession have been insecure and low-paying with no benefits.

Remember American Axle and Manufacturing? At one time, thousands of very happy UAW workers earning $20/hr+ with Cadillac health care benefits worked at their HQ in Hamtramck [[because actually AAM was once a subsidiary of the once largest company in the world, General Motors). When the bottom fell out in the 2007-2009, instead of negotiating a new contract with these workers, AAM decided to close shop entirely and move to Mexico to pay foreigners cents on the dollar to manufacture their goods. The UAW workers at the Hamtramck all subsequently lost their jobs, and no more of these jobs were being created for folks who would be entering the work force in Michigan

Several years later, they've brought SOME investment back to Michigan and have hired 600 extremely desperate people. The problem? The jobs only pay $10.50/hr in 2015 dollars and no longer offer Cadillac health care benefits. And despite the laughable compensation they're getting paid, these workers still forced to join the UAW because of a contract in place until 2017.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the...pay-2013-08-20



Furthermore, at least 1/3 of these jobs created since the last recession are temporary or from self-employment. Out of these temp/self-employment positions, only 7% become direct hire. On average, these jobs are only paying $25K per year...

http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...ment/20941729/

These people of course are scared to death of spending the little income they're earning [[which also prevents a true economic recovery) because they know their jobs won't be around long and they're not even making enough to cover their bills. That's not a sustainable way to build a healthy economy.

Now, is it good that, the economy has stop shrinking for a bit? Absolutely. But at the same time, I'm not going to put on blinders and assume happy days are here again either. The glory days aren't coming back, and I'm just being brutally honest in that unless you're content with having a far lower standard of living and quality of life than your parents and grandparents had in Michigan, it's not a bad idea to get out now.

The question isn't whether Michigan is, relative to other states, a lot poorer than it was 40 or 50 years ago. There is no doubt that is true. The median Michigander might even be poorer now than 40 years ago on an absolute basis, at least if you look strictly at real wages. Our differences are not on that point.

You seemed to be claiming three things:

1) That staying in Michigan was tantamount to martyrdom.

2) That there had been no improvement since the bottom of the recession.

3) That another recession is imminent.

I don't agree with 1), but I guess that is a matter of opinion. 2) is wrong, for the reasons I gave. 3) is also a matter of opinion, but your supporting argument about GE losing money isn't correct, because that is just accounting for money they lost long ago and does not reflect current conditions. 3) will no longer be matter of opinion in eight months or so, and perhaps we can revisit this at that time.