Why is M1 Rail so cheap?

[iheartthed]

I was reading about the Washington, D.C. streetcar line that is being constructed and was pretty shocked by its projected cost: $3 billion dollars. Detroit's streetcar line is projected to cost $137 million dollars, less than 5% the cost of D.C.'s, and will stretch a over a mile longer than D.C's line [[3.3 miles vs 2.2 miles). Is anybody aware of why these two projects differ so dramatically in cost?

For reference: http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...b89_story.html

[ndavies]

Washington DC is planning on building a much larger system. The $3 billion is the total cost of the originally planned 37 mile street car system. Not the 2.2 starter line.

[Scottathew]

I think 2.2 miles is what they constructed with 200 million dollars, and the 3B price tag is to complete more of the system.

[Jason]

I think they've spent $200 million on the 2.2 miles that they built, and the additional billions was to finish the planned system afterwards. From what I've quickly read the 3 billion dollars is for 37 miles.

Detroit's is in line with other light rail systems. Detroit's is also a straight line that doesn't encounter any real geography, infrastructure, or weird intersections, so it's basically as straightforward as it gets.

[tkelly1986]

I've also noticed a difference in the type of rail put in. The first picture is of the Detroit rail and the second if of the rail in DC . It looks like the DC rail has an extra piece of steel on the inside and then rubber cushioning on the outside. Can someone please explain the difference here? What is the need for the extra DC pieces?

[iheartthed]

^That makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.

[One Shot]

Looks like the one in DC is gonna hold up better. The insulation on both sides would be helpful here with our weather. But I'm just armchair'ing it.

[innercitydoc]

A better question may be will Detroit's line face the same woes the D.C. line is currently experiencing. Last time I checked the weather is much worse here therefore can we expect similar mishaps such as traffic accidents? Especially since it will run curbside.

[casscorridor]

DC has one of the best transit systems in America. Detroit has one of the worst.

When you half-ass something, it's never good in the end. Sure, you save money now, but it doesn't do you any favors down the line. Actually, I might even call the M1 rail a setback, and part of me thinks it shouldn't be built at all.

M1 is running "co-mingling" with traffic. The second there is any amount of back-up [[i.e. sports games, which is when the line will be most busy anyway) it will run at a snails pace, and act as an embarrassment, proving to suburban voters that transit is a waste of time and money.

Not to mention, from what I remember, there will only be 8 total cars, running in sets of two. So four trains for the entire line. They will run every 15 minutes. That is a half-assed attempt at rapid transit. Headways need to be every 5 minutes to be effective.

Detroit should take the time and money to invest in a real rapid transit.

[dtowncitylover]

DC has one of the best transit systems in America. Detroit has one of the worst.

When you half-ass something, it's never good in the end. Sure, you save money now, but it doesn't do you any favors down the line. Actually, I might even call the M1 rail a setback, and part of me thinks it shouldn't be built at all.

M1 is running "co-mingling" with traffic. The second there is any amount of back-up [[i.e. sports games, which is when the line will be most busy anyway) it will run at a snails pace, and act as an embarrassment, proving to suburban voters that transit is a waste of time and money.

Not to mention, from what I remember, there will only be 8 total cars, running in sets of two. So four trains for the entire line. They will run every 15 minutes. That is a half-assed attempt at rapid transit. Headways need to be every 5 minutes to be effective.

Detroit should take the time and money to invest in a real rapid transit.

While I definitely agree with you that curbside was a bad idea, I don't think it's the end of the world considering the line north of Ferry St. will be middle running and so too would be the line if/when it runs further north. And the only stops that I can see being "backed" up are Sibley, Foxtown, and GCP. But frankly, I just don't see the horrors of "backups" being that horrific.

Also, streetcar/light rail is not rapid transit. Detroit should invest in rapid transit, but Detroit should invest in a lot of things.

[Scottathew]

I just don't see the horrors of "backups" being that horrific.

I can see it.

Will traffic be allowed to use the rail lanes as a travel lane? Even if the answer is "no" I still can see cars using them when sporting events let out.

At least the PM can get you around when the streets are gridlocked. M1-Rail is at the mercy of the problem; lots and lots of cars.

[animatedmartian]

It looks like the DC rail has an extra piece of steel on the inside and then rubber cushioning on the outside. Can someone please explain the difference here? What is the need for the extra DC pieces?

Technically it's the same "piece" of rail. It's called a grooved rail. This is a cutaway of what it looks like.


http://www.vf-systems-railways.com/v...il-joints.html

Detroit's streetcar uses a standard T-rail with concrete around it.


https://www.facebook.com/M1RAIL/phot...type=3&theater

The difference is that the groove rail is cheaper [[not as much rail is needed for curves and intersections), lasts longer [[less damage from the environment), and safer [[less likely for cyclists or people in wheelchairs to get caught in the groove).

The only problem is that grooved rail is only made in Europe. Only one manufacturer in Europe can build grooved rail to fit American regulations. However, they only ship out the rail once a year, so of course that prolongs construction and makes it expensive. Unfortunately, the Feds require that any streetcar project using federal grants [[which M-1 Rail did) can't import any rail and has to use American Steel. But since no one in America makes grooved rail [[for which the steel industry argues there's not enough demand to justify making it), the only option is the standard T-rail.

Source.

So whatever city uses grooved rail is a city that didn't use federal money but also paid for it by spending a crap-ton of money and time. The only exception is Portland who buy their rails from a Polish company that has an American plant. However, it's considered an 'experimental' type of rail and the results have yet to be determined.

[dtowncitylover]

I can see it.

Will traffic be allowed to use the rail lanes as a travel lane? Even if the answer is "no" I still can see cars using them when sporting events let out.

At least the PM can get you around when the streets are gridlocked. M1-Rail is at the mercy of the problem; lots and lots of cars.

Yes they will, welcome to a streetcar system. Even Toronto's streetcars are at the "mercy" of cars [[or are cars at the mercy of streetcars?). We just need to watch out for one another and we'll all get home fine. This isn't rapid transit, no more than trying to get out of downtown after a game is a quick drive home.

[Gpwrangler]

Yes they will, welcome to a streetcar system. Even Toronto's streetcars are at the "mercy" of cars [[or are cars at the mercy of streetcars?). We just need to watch out for one another and we'll all get home fine. This isn't rapid transit, no more than trying to get out of downtown after a game is a quick drive home.

The streetcars are too light to clear traffic. People watch out for real trains [[well except a few hundred per year that manage to get hit) but they'll just laugh at these things and cut in front of them. It's gonna be a real circus.

[ghettopalmetto]

I've also noticed a difference in the type of rail put in. The first picture is of the Detroit rail and the second if of the rail in DC . It looks like the DC rail has an extra piece of steel on the inside and then rubber cushioning on the outside. Can someone please explain the difference here? What is the need for the extra DC pieces?

That's not insulation...it's an isolation joint. Although I'm not sure why you'd need it, since steel and concrete have very similar coefficients of thermal expansion.

The DC Streetcar has been in the works for a good decade, and has yet to open for revenue service. Short story: It's been heavily politicized, and new mayor Muriel Bowser wants to abolish the project entirely. At least that's the way I understand it.

[dtowncitylover]

The streetcars are too light to clear traffic. People watch out for real trains [[well except a few hundred per year that manage to get hit) but they'll just laugh at these things and cut in front of them. It's gonna be a real circus.

And SMART cars are pretty light and laughable too but can definitely kill someone if going a high enough speed. It's gonna be a circus because people here aren't used to interacting with them. And over time, adjustment will happen. These things aren't small nor are they light.

[Gpwrangler]

Don't get me wrong, adjustment needs to happen. But railroad right of way that cars can drive on is an accident waiting to happen. I hope the damn things have good brakes because nowadays drivers will sue and win.

I used to live on a street that was used by Burlington Northern trains. I learned to stay the hell out of the way but every year some idiot managed to get hit by a train that "came out of nowhere". With all the warning lights and gates people still manage to get in front of them.

Ahhh, the smart car...wouldn't be caught dead in one.

[bailey]

Don't get me wrong, adjustment needs to happen. But railroad right of way that cars can drive on is an accident waiting to happen. I hope the damn things have good brakes because nowadays drivers will sue and win.

Call 1800-M1-HIT-YOU. Get the money YOU deserve for the injuries you suffered!

[Dbest]

There is a pretty heavy DPD presence along Woodward for sporting events. I find it hard to believe that people are going to be pulling "jack moves" in the train lane to save time, if so be prepared for large fines/reckless driving citations.

I do agree there will be an adjustment period while drivers familiarize themselves with the setup. I don't think most drivers will mind due to the fascination factor regarding the new line.

[bailey]

There is a pretty heavy DPD presence along Woodward for sporting events. I find it hard to believe that people are going to be pulling "jack moves" in the train lane to save time, if so be prepared for large fines/reckless driving citations.

I do agree there will be an adjustment period while drivers familiarize themselves with the setup. I don't think most drivers will mind due to the fascination factor regarding the new line.

The issue is not the cars cutting off the tram... its that the tram is running in a traffic lane. It's not a dedicated lane. I'm doubting DPD can stop the typical game time gridlock that occurs around the stadiums at game time. The tram is going to be sitting in traffic with everyone else.

[dtowncitylover]

The issue is not the cars cutting off the tram... its that the tram is running in a traffic lane. It's not a dedicated lane. I'm doubting DPD can stop the typical game time gridlock that occurs around the stadiums at game time. The tram is going to be sitting in traffic with everyone else.

I'm gonna paraphrase from my favorite Bible passage, Proverbs 6:6, "Go to Toronto, o sluggard, and learn its ways and be wise."

Welcome to the city, people. This isn't 1995 or even 2005 anymore...

[professorscott]

Detroit's is in line with other light rail systems. Detroit's is also a straight line that doesn't encounter any real geography, infrastructure, or weird intersections, so it's basically as straightforward as it gets.

Let us not forget, also, that M1 Rail is being built in large degree with the money of the people overseeing its construction. The DC Streetcar is being built with guvamint money, so it's "free" to any of the people actually involved in it. People tend to be a little more careful with money when it's their own money than when it's magic money from out of the clear blue sky [[which is how people tend to treat government funds).

Regarding all the hand-wringing about cars hitting streetcars: you all do remember we had streetcars in Detroit for about 60 years, right? And, by the way, cars ran into them regularly, just like cars run into cars regularly, and we all managed somehow. And, then as now, traffic [[including streetcar traffic) was miserable around the baseball park when a Tiger game let out, and streetcars won't magically fix that, just like they didn't in 1925, and just like the DDOT buses didn't last year.

[Eric_c]

I think people have this image of mile long freight trains on the city street, or fifteen car passenger trains. This is going to be just as easy on auto traffic as a bus and a far better quality of service for patrons of the line, what with pre-pay boarding, dedicated shelters and real-time arrival postings.

We'll all adapt just fine, I promise.

[Gpwrangler]

I have an image of a bus that can't steer, not a long train. Just wait...

[Eric_c]

No...you wait. Besides, what do you care? How often do you ride the #53?