Pipeline veto'd

[Papasito]

On one hand I see where he's coming from, but on the other, for example, if you look at the Alaskan pipeline, there hasn't been a significant spill from it since it was built. But they are not going to stop extracting oil from Canada. So they are moving the oil by train and truck. Try to "google" or "Bing" "Oil train spill" and watch the DOZENS of articles that come up.

So sure it's nice that he wants to try to stop oil from expanding but on the other hand whats worse? a pipeline or oil spills on our roads and rails? Theres no win in this situation, alternative energies are farther off than we think.

Today's alternative energy market is this = Government gives money to millionaires and billionaires to make energy and when that energy is completely unaffordable the government subsidizes it.
I'm not trying to be political here, I'm just calling it as it is. Oil is nasty stuff and it's going to be transported one way or the other.

I have 2 points to make on this:
Point 1 - As long as they stall the pipeline from being built they put more money in Warren Buffett's pocket [[Big Democrat Donor & Railroad Tycoon), because the oil will continue to flow along his railways. Train shipment is currently BOOMING and backed up due to the oil transport business, and Buffett is eating it up!
http://www.investmentu.com/content/d...fetts-railroad

Point 2 - OIL IS NOT GOING ANY WHERE. Plastics are petroleum based. That computer you're using ... even the ones you environmentalists are typing on right now .. is made out of plastics! Plastics are made from OIL! Plastics and petroleum products are all around you. Oil will be around a long, long time.

[oladub]

For once, I agree with Obama. Other pipelines have been retrofitted to increase their capacity into the US and to Asia. More oil will be shipped to Asian markets from Canada on a new pipeline. Keystone was primarily to export oil anyway. There wouldn't have been huge numbers of long term jobs. If this was about meeting US oil needs, big refineries would, instead, have been built in North Dakota. Keystone was a subsidy to big oil. Supply and Demand dictates that the more export markets there are for this Canadian oil, the more the domestic price of oil will increase. i can't imagine subsidizing corporations to make my gasoline more expensive.

[rb336]

NONE of the oil in this pipeline is headed to the US consumer. If it were, they could send it to the refinery in some central location like Joliet. It is going to Houston for one reason - it is the closest large port to the canal

the Trans-Alaska Pipeline has had over 4500 spills that have lost millions of gallons of crude. And it has yet to be tested by a strong earthquake.

So far, on the portions of the XL that have been constructed seventy-two percent
of welds have had to be repaired.

Now here is the other thing no one seems to talk about: approval of the XL pipeline includes seizure by eminent domain of thousands of acres of privately held farmland and ​giving that property, for a nominal sum, to a foreign corporate interest.

[Gpwrangler]

Try again in two years.

[Honky Tonk]

On one hand I see where he's coming from, but on the other, for example, if you look at the Alaskan pipeline, there hasn't been a significant spill from it since it was built. But they are not going to stop extracting oil from Canada. So they are moving the oil by train and truck. Try to "google" or "Bing" "Oil train spill" and watch the DOZENS of articles that come up.

So sure it's nice that he wants to try to stop oil from expanding but on the other hand whats worse? a pipeline or oil spills on our roads and rails? Theres no win in this situation, alternative energies are farther off than we think.

Today's alternative energy market is this = Government gives money to millionaires and billionaires to make energy and when that energy is completely unaffordable the government subsidizes it.
I'm not trying to be political here, I'm just calling it as it is. Oil is nasty stuff and it's going to be transported one way or the other.

I have 2 points to make on this:
Point 1 - As long as they stall the pipeline from being built they put more money in Warren Buffett's pocket [[Big Democrat Donor & Railroad Tycoon), because the oil will continue to flow along his railways. Train shipment is currently BOOMING and backed up due to the oil transport business, and Buffett is eating it up!
http://www.investmentu.com/content/d...fetts-railroad

Point 2 - OIL IS NOT GOING ANY WHERE. Plastics are petroleum based. That computer you're using ... even the ones you environmentalists are typing on right now .. is made out of plastics! Plastics are made from OIL! Plastics and petroleum products are all around you. Oil will be around a long, long time.

Just wondering, have you ever heard of "recycling"? All that stuff you highlight, with exclaimation points, can be broken down and made into the latest stuff you have to have. It takes people to do that, so you'd also be creating a job market. The beauty is, it can be done actually enhancing the land, instead of screwing it up even further. However your Corporate Lords don't want to make you aware of that because, well, because they wouldn't want to be dethroned. A serf rebellion, whoever heard of such a thing?

[Gpwrangler]

NONE of the oil in this pipeline is headed to the US consumer. If it were, they could send it to the refinery in some central location like Joliet. It is going to Houston for one reason - it is the closest large port to the canal

the Trans-Alaska Pipeline has had over 4500 spills that have lost millions of gallons of crude. And it has yet to be tested by a strong earthquake.

So far, on the portions of the XL that have been constructed seventy-two percent
of welds have had to be repaired.

Now here is the other thing no one seems to talk about: approval of the XL pipeline includes seizure by eminent domain of thousands of acres of privately held farmland and ​giving that property, for a nominal sum, to a foreign corporate interest.

Meh. Just ship it by rail. Or by semi. It's all good.

[MikeM]

Point 1 - As long as they stall the pipeline from being built they put more money in Warren Buffett's pocket [[Big Democrat Donor & Railroad Tycoon), because the oil will continue to flow along his railways. Train shipment is currently BOOMING and backed up due to the oil transport business, and Buffett is eating it up!

Some - but very little - of the oil being shipped by rail would be carried by the KeystoneXL. Most of the oil being shipped by rail is from the Bakken region and KeystoneXL would only accommodate about 70,000 bbls/day of Bakken [[about a train and a half load). Consider that when the region is producing a million barrels per day. Crude volumes by rail from Canada are even lower.

Most oil being shipped by train is going to destinations not served by, and nowhere near the KeystoneXL: refineries in the northeast and west coast for the most part. Those regions were very dependent on imported oil, priced at international benchmarks, and the depressed prices for landlocked Bakken made it attractive enough to cover the high cost of rail transportation and still be a bargain. The collapse of Brent prices will do more to reduced rail shipments [[by making imports too competitive) than Keystone ever would. Keystone would barely make a dent in crude rail shipments and its supporters never seem to grasp that. They seem to think it's either/or.

Although North Dakota is in the heart of BNSF [[Buffet) territory, a lot of that rail traffic ends up on other class one and regional railroads, so it's putting money in a lot of other pockets. On the other hand, crude shipments account for something like 5% of rail volumes, so it's not going to hurt Buffet much if it all dries up.

[Jimaz]

Wherever deception is directly proportional to the profit from deceit, voting against that deceit is prudent, safe and wise, indeed, conservative.

[old guy]

Just streamed the documentary 'Above All Else' on Netflix. It's about a group of people attempting to stop the XL pipeline running through one persons property. It's somewhat lengthy and an ok doc., but one interesting point comes at about 11:04 into the movie. It shows the Kalamazoo River where a pipeline broke, and the aftermath of the cleanup. It's unreal how bad it still is. Someone that worked on the cleanup took a group of people to a site that's off limits and showed them what was left behind. It's pretty sad. Oil dredged from the river into the tall grass along the banks and left there. A shovel stuck into the river for a few seconds releases a flow of oil. The site after the supposed cleanup was approved by the EPA.

If you can access it, you should take a look at it. It's pathetic on any level and shows that the EPA is deep into the pockets of the oil industry and in no way a protection agency for anyone living in America.

I understand that we rely on oil, but this crap shouldn't be allowed. There are different ways to do things. Correct ways. Personally, I'm embarrassed to be a part of a society that future generations will look back on. We're really allowing the big boys to screw our children, grand children and generations beyond.

[gazhekwe]

There is still a thick carpet of oil on the bottom of the Gulf from the BP spill.

Looking back in history, I wonder how far down we could go in the Detroit River muck to find the remains of the huge Petrolia and Oil Springs spills of the mid 1800s.

The early petroleum industry was raw and dangerous.When drillers struck a gusher, oil flowed across thelandscape, fouling creeks and rivers, many of which routinelycaught fire.

http://www.garymay.ca/assets/downloads/Beaver_Oil.pdf

Though difficult to find online, if you go to Oil Springs, Ontario you will be able to read of the history of oil in that area. One of the first gushers resulted in a long term spill that did run all the way to Lake Erie. From Detroit, take the Marine City - Sombra ferry. It's a great day trip.

[G-DDT]

Good call gazhekwe and old guy. One only need look at past pipeline and oil spills [[one of my angry points with Obama was not initiating a more aggressive executive decision to step in and contain the BP oil spill from the onset, but it just kept going and going...). To "lighten the mood", here is another spill we are familiar with:
http://thecolbertreport.cc.com/video...isaster-relief

[gazhekwe]

LOL, probably Bounty towels, by Koch

[old guy]

Good call gazhekwe and old guy. One only need look at past pipeline and oil spills [[one of my angry points with Obama was not initiating a more aggressive executive decision to step in and contain the BP oil spill from the onset, but it just kept going and going...). To "lighten the mood", here is another spill we are familiar with:
http://thecolbertreport.cc.com/video...isaster-relief

Interesting, after the Colbert video that G-DDT posted, which was great, the following video is an interview with Colbert and Charlie LeDuff about Detroit.
Charlie LeDuff - Charlie LeDuff - The Colbert Report - Video Clip | Comedy Central

[Ray1936]

Oh, the OIL pipeline. At first I thought you were talking about the water pipeline from Lake Michigan to the southwest deserts and California. That's still on, isn't it????

[old guy]

Oh, the OIL pipeline. At first I thought you were talking about the water pipeline from Lake Michigan to the southwest deserts and California. That's still on, isn't it????

At this point, that would have to be a mighty big pipe Ray.

[old guy]

This is the same company that's building the XL pipeline. It's perfectly safe.

Attachment 26340

Enbridge Line 6B, which was carrying heavy Tar Sands oil across southern Michigan, ruptured near the Kalamazoo River on July 25, 2010, caused the largest on-land oil spill in U.S. history. Photo courtesy of NRDC.Tar Sands oil ain’t Jed Clampett’s bubblin’ crude |Glen Arbor Sun

[[Reuters) - Enbridge's massive oil pipeline spill in Michigan in 2010 was caused by a complete breakdown of company safety measures, while its employees performed like "Keystone Kops" trying to contain it, the National Transportation Safety Board said on Tuesday.
The rupture of Enbridge's pipeline spilled more than 20,000 barrels of heavy crude into the Kalamazoo River in Michigan, in July, 2010.
"This investigation identified a complete breakdown of safety at Enbridge," NTSB Chairman Deborah Hersman said in a statement.
"Their employees performed like Keystone Kops and failed to recognize their pipeline had ruptured and continued to pump crude into the environment."
The NTSB said the main failure of the pipeline was due to multiple small "corrosion-fatigue cracks" that grew over time to create a breach in the pipe over 80 inches long.
The rupture, which spilled crude unchecked for 17 hours, has raised concern about pipeline safety in North America, including Enbridge's planned oilsands pipeline from Alberta to the British Columbia coast, as well as TransCanada's Keystone pipeline in the United States.
Enbridge said in a statement it believed its personnel were trying to do the "right thing" at the time.
"As with most such incidents, a series of unfortunate events and circumstances resulted in an outcome no one wanted," said Patrick Daniel, Enbridge's chief executive.
The U.S. pipeline regulator in early July slapped a $3.7 million fine on Enbridge, the largest it has ever imposed.
The Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration, or PHMSA, said its probe uncovered two dozen regulation violations related to the leak on Enbridge's Line 6B near the town of Marshall, about mid-way between Detroit and Lake Michigan.
The accident shut down the pipeline for more than two months and spawned a massive clean-up that the company has estimated will cost more than $700 million.
Following the Enbridge spill and other major pipeline accidents, the Transportation Department enhanced its oversight last year.
Last December, Congress passed a pipeline safety bill that raised maximum fines and authorized an increase in the number of pipeline inspectors.
[[Reporting By Russ Blinch and Timothy Gardner; Editing by David Gregorio)

List of oil spills - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Attachment 26341
From the Kalamazoo clean-up site. Photo by Michelle Barlond-Smith.

"PHMSA, the federal agency overseeing pipelines, had issues with following up on Enbridge's checking the safety of the pipeline, its facility response plan regulations as well as approval of Enbridge's response plans, the report said.


The actual rupture was caused when pressure was increased on the pipeline from 50 to 200 psi, according to the NTSB. Enbridge knew about cracks in the section of pipeline in 2005, but did not realize at the time how deep they actually were."


"In 2005, Enbridge detected the very defect that led to this failure — located within a corrosion area that Enbridge had identified the year before," Hersman said. "Yet, for five years they did nothing to address the corrosion or cracking at the rupture site — and the problem festered."

Yeah, with the drought in the west, the possibility of future crop failure or at the very least, a very possible sharp increase in food prices I really trust these guys to run another pipeline through the remaining bread basket of the country, so that a Canadian company can profit from oil that will go directly to China benefitting a few transnational corporations along the way.

The Ogallala is the largest freshwater aquifer in the world.

"The Ogallala Aquifer is a vast geologic formation that sprawls underneath parts of eight states from South Dakota to Texas. Early settlers in the semi-arid High Plains were plagued by crop failures due to cycles of drought, culminating in the disastrous Dust Bowl of the 1930s. After World War II, affordable technology became available to irrigate from the Ogallala. The High Plains was then transformed into one of the most agriculturally productive regions in the world.
To say that the High Plains economy now "runs on water" is probably no exaggeration. Irrigated crops provide feed for livestock, which are in turn the primary inputs for local meat processing plants. Water is also essential for the livestock production and meat processing industries. The crop, livestock, and meat processing sectors form the core of the regional economy, accounting for a large share of employment and gross output. Because the Ogallala recharges very slowly, the High Plains economy is dependent on a finite resource.

The debate at the federal level has changed over time. Debates in the 1970s focused on conserving the Ogallala for national and international food security."

Sorry this is so lengthy, not really, but fresh water = food = life seems important to me.

[MikeM]

This is the same company that's building the XL pipeline.

No, it's not.

[old guy]

No, it's not.

OK, I might be confusing who's using which pipeline and where transfer points would be used, but it's complicated. Enbridge is probably going to be bringing the tar sands to the gulf coast. It looks like they're going to just about be going through my backyard and almost skirting Lake Michigan. They'll also be touching Lake Superior.

Attachment 26343Canada Pushes Ahead with Keystone XL Alternatives - Scientific American Full story.

Enbridge looks like the main player right now. Either way, it looks scary. Hit two of the Great Lakes, cross the Mississippi River, the Wisconsin River and the Missouri River plus thousands of wetlands, pristine trout streams and other tributaries in Wisconsin and Minnesota, arrive at the gulf and then off to Asia.

[MikeM]

Enbridge is the main player. You know they've been piping Canadian oil to Wisconsin since the early 1950s, and through Michigan and around Chicago for nearly as long, right? And that there are several other pipelines that bring oil from Canada into the U.S. in Montana and Washington State?

[old guy]

Yeah Mike, I know they've been doing it here for a long time, but they haven't been pumping tar sands oil for all those years. Right now they're trying to build pump stations all along the route and it's become the largest oil pipeline in the world. Messing with Lake Superior which is the largest fresh water lake, by size in the world troubles me.

If the XL passes at some point, and it probably will, that will pass through the largest underground water aquifer. The west coast is drying up and it just seems like we're taking some chances here that could be catastrophic. Water is a reasonably important asset.

I use oil. There are a lot of companies that have been transporting oil in pipelines without problems for a long time. Enbridge isn't one of them.

On another note: Scott Walker is allowing a 22 mile-long, 1000 foot-deep strip mine to proceed in Northern Wisconsin's Penokee Hills region, which contains the headwaters of the Bad River and Lake Superior. The mine could cause asbestos dust and sulfuric acid leeching that would destroy the Bad River reservation, as well as many other downstream ecosystems. The mining company isn't earning our trust either - they've used private paramilitary groups for security, and Walker's DNR has pressured an educational camp be criminally prosecuted for studying the mine.

One section of the Enbridge pipeline heads west from Superior and goes to the U.P. Looking at the maps, it almost looks like the pipeline and strip mine will intersect. Of course they won't, but the lure of the north woods could easily become just a memory. Sorry, I'm kind of passionate about this part of the country.

[jiminnm]

Jim Blanchard is on Enbridge's Board. What could possibly go wrong?