Livingston County - Michigan's richest County

[detlump]

I saw this report online today:

http://247wallst.com/special-report/...-each-state/6/

I thought Oakland county was but maybe this report's methods were different than before.

[animatedmartian]

Livingston is still mostly rural and has way less people than Oakland so it wouldn't be that hard for a small affluent area to skew the median income past Oakland's.

By per capita, Oakland County is still more affluent.

[Bham1982]

Median vs. mean.

[Danny]

You mean 'Mich-ississippi's' Livingston County. Not only the richest county in the state, but the most Klan covered county in the state.

[Scottathew]

You mean 'Mich-ississippi's' Livingston County. Not only the richest county in the state, but the most Klan covered county in the state.

That's the rumor I've heard.

My wife has a lot of family there. It's alright, but if you need anything at all you're driving lots of miles.

[Dexlin]

Speaking of Livingston County, all indicators are pointing to its boom days being over, and that's really good for the rest of the region. The fastest growing county in the state in the 90's [[37%), growth slowed way down in the 00's [[15.3%), and population estimates show it crawling in the 10's [[1.9% for the first three years of the decade) relative to the 90's.

Apart from its nasty little cultural history, the problem with it is that the growth was basically entirely sprawl. There is not a single incorporated city or village in the entire county that tops 10,000 residents. It's the worst of exurbia.

[animatedmartian]

Speaking of Livingston County, all indicators are pointing to its boom days being over, and that's really good for the rest of the region. The fastest growing county in the state in the 90's [[37%), growth slowed way down in the 00's [[15.3%), and population estimates show it crawling in the 10's [[1.9% for the first three years of the decade) relative to the 90's.

Apart from its nasty little cultural history, the problem with it is that the growth was basically entirely sprawl. There is not a single incorporated city or village in the entire county that tops 10,000 residents. It's the worst of exurbia.

That's because no one's wages have gone up. Can't buy houses if people aren't making money. Don't worry, once [[or if ever) the economy kicks up again, the sprawl machine will get going.

[Dexlin]

It's not even that, because Oakland has already grown more in population than it did over the entire previous decade, and Macomb is growing at about the same rate. Even Wayne's loss has slowed down, considerably. That's the thing; it looks like people's choices have actually changed in just over a decade. People are sticking around and moving toward the urban core counties of the metropolitan area. The more rural exurban counties are either slow growing of shrinking.

[Bham1982]

Don't worry, once [[or if ever) the economy kicks up again, the sprawl machine will get going.

The sprawl machine is going crazy right now; probably stronger than at any time since the 1990's.

Go west on 96 till about Beck or Wixom Road exit, then drive around western Novi and eastern Lyon Twp. Thousands of 500-600k homes going up everywhere.

And that's base price. Actual move-in costs [[with lot fees, required landscaping and the like) are probably well north of 600k for most of these homes. For Michigan standards, that isn't cheap.

[Bham1982]

People are sticking around and moving toward the urban core counties of the metropolitan area. The more rural exurban counties are either slow growing of shrinking.

There has been no such change.

The fastest growing parts of the state are all exurban townships. I believe Lyon Township is the fastest growing community in the state, both in terms of population and building permits.

And Wayne County is the fastest shrinking county in the entire U.S.

[Dexlin]

There has been no such change.

The fastest growing parts of the state are all exurban townships. I believe Lyon Township is the fastest growing community in the state, both in terms of population and building permits.

And Wayne County is the fastest shrinking county in the entire U.S.

You misunderstood. I said the growth has pulled back into the urban core counties. Where in these counties the growth is happening is a different subject, but Livingston, Lapeer, St. Clair, etc...have have all slowed down or are shrinking, while Oakland, Macomb, and Washtenaw has picked back up while Wayne's loss is slowing.

As for that last part, that's not true on its face. While it may be the slowest among the nation's most urban counties, there are counties with greater percentage population losses.

[ABetterDetroit]

Speaking of Livingston County, all indicators are pointing to its boom days being over, and that's really good for the rest of the region. The fastest growing county in the state in the 90's [[37%), growth slowed way down in the 00's [[15.3%), and population estimates show it crawling in the 10's [[1.9% for the first three years of the decade) relative to the 90's.

Apart from its nasty little cultural history, the problem with it is that the growth was basically entirely sprawl. There is not a single incorporated city or village in the entire county that tops 10,000 residents. It's the worst of exurbia.

Only so many people want to trade 1-2 hours of their free time daily commuting in a car sitting in traffic daily for the Livingston county lifestyle. I96 Rush hour has to be the absolute worst in the metro. Its nice out there but no chance I would give up that much time out of my life for it.

[Bham1982]

You misunderstood. I said the growth has pulled back into the urban core counties. Where in these counties the growth is happening is a different subject, but Livingston, Lapeer, St. Clair, etc...have have all slowed down or are shrinking, while Oakland, Macomb, and Washtenaw has picked back up while Wayne's loss is slowing.

But the growth is all on the fringe. The fastest growing parts of the metro area are the same as always, on the fringe. the fastest declining parts of the metro area are the same as always, in the core. How is there a change?

As for that last part, that's not true on its face. While it may be the slowest among the nation's most urban counties, there are counties with greater percentage population losses.

Could you point me to one of these counties? I don't think there's one urban county nationally with worse population loss [[by number or %).

[Bham1982]

Here's a summary of the latest Census results.

http://archive.freep.com/article/201...sus-population

[Johnnny5]

It's not even that, because Oakland has already grown more in population than it did over the entire previous decade, and Macomb is growing at about the same rate. Even Wayne's loss has slowed down, considerably. That's the thing; it looks like people's choices have actually changed in just over a decade. People are sticking around and moving toward the urban core counties of the metropolitan area. The more rural exurban counties are either slow growing of shrinking.

That's not what I'm seeing out here in Western Oakland County. I'm in Milford, but travel to Livingston County often [[Mostly the area around Howell, Brighton, Fowlerville). New residential construction out this way has been insane for the last 1-2 years! I'm not sure what the driving force is, but I'd have to agree with bham1982 that it's nothing short of crazy.

In Milford they just announced plans for the restart of a 700+ acre mixed use residential/retail development that was idled in the late 1990's. There's also work starting on a 175 acre development just a mile further up the road. Just to put that into perspective the entire Packard plant covers under 50 acres. Like it or not, people are still moving out this way for some reason.

[Dexlin]

But the growth is all on the fringe. The fastest growing parts of the metro area are the same as always, on the fringe. the fastest declining parts of the metro area are the same as always, in the core. How is there a change?

Seriously? Look at the numbers I gave for Livingston's growth. This is not debatable. I wasn't arguing that sprawl had ended, just that it's slowed way-the-hell down in the fringe counties. I'd point you to the housing permit numbers and bi-annual population figures estimates at SEMCOG. Look at where the change is. Fewer than a handful of out-county tri-county municipalities are growing at double-digit rates. Some of the fastest growing communities are in the urban parts of the tri-county, now. This was not even the case ten years ago. Growth is very clearly different than it was a decade ago. I'm not arguing from some emotional standpoint. Look at the numbers. You're the one who popped up like I showed a bat signal the moment I even so much as suggested that sprawl may be slowing down or recentering in the more urban counties. This is something you are wont to do, I've noticed.

Could you point me to one of these counties? I don't think there's one urban county nationally with worse population loss [[by number or %).

So, now you're trying to qualify it with "urban county" after I'd done that? You can't keep moving the goal posts for your emotional arguments. You didn't qualify county with anything in your original response.

Please, don't try to pretend that you don't have a hardline agenda, here. Just own it, and quit misrepresenting other people's responses. You guys are going to have to offer more than anecdotal stories. Some things are hard to measure; housing permits are pretty unassailable points of data. Livingston County is not anywhere near returning to its previous ridiculous growth rates, nor are the out-county in Oakland and Wayne where things are picking back up, but where there is also now competing urban growth where there wasn't in the previous decade.

[Bham1982]

Seriously? Look at the numbers I gave for Livingston's growth. This is not debatable.

Livingston County is mostly rural, and doesn't even have water/sewer systems. Generally speaking, it's impossible to build upscale subdivisions in Livingston.

And Livingston isn't even part of the Detroit urbanized area. It isn't a gauge of sprawl at the fringe, because the fringe isn't quite in Livingston yet [[but it will be, one day). You cannot build subdivisions of 600k homes without water/sewer. It's completely impossible on well systems.

I wasn't arguing that sprawl had ended, just that it's slowed way-the-hell down in the fringe counties. I'd point you to the housing permit numbers and bi-annual population figures estimates at SEMCOG.

Well there's your problem right there. You're looking at SEMCOG, not the real data. The U.S. Census bureau is the only source for population and permits. SEMCOG is a regional nonprofit that doesn't have any sort of capacity to accurately track things like population and permits.

Growth is very clearly different than it was a decade ago.

There is absolutely no change, per the U.S. Census Bureau. As is usual on DYes, some people have a problem with facts, and prefer emotion.

[Dexlin]

Well there's your problem right there. You're looking at SEMCOG, not the real data. The U.S. Census bureau is the only source for population and permits. SEMCOG is a regional nonprofit that doesn't have any sort of capacity to accurately track things like population and permits.

You are ridiculous. SEMCOG uses Census data and then uses local housing data to get an even more accurate picture. They are even more accurate than the Census. You need to stop speaking on stuff you have no idea about, which is something you seem to love to do. You say stuff as if it's fact when you're one of the least knowledgeable people one here. Metro Detroit is growing differently than it was, spatially, than it was during the previous decade. This is a fact.

[Novack]

"Richest State"?

Sorry I just need to point out the obvious title mistake because it is bugging the S### out of me

[dtowncitylover]

"Richest State"?

Sorry I just need to point out the obvious title mistake because it is bugging the S### out of me

I second this. I don't even care to discuss this topic, I just need this corrected too, please and thank you.

[Bham1982]

You are ridiculous. SEMCOG uses Census data and then uses local housing data to get an even more accurate picture. They are even more accurate than the Census. You need to stop speaking on stuff you have no idea about, which is something you seem to love to do.

You have no clue what you're talking about.

First, the Census is the only source for such data, and I am only repeating the results from the Census. You don't like the Census results, so you attack the source. No, "The Census is lying and hates Detroit" is not a reasonable response.

SEMCOG is NOT a source for population or permits data. They don't even have the staff to attempt such an endeavor. The Census Bureau has tens of thousands of workers including hundreds of stats PhDs sifting through the data. They're probably the most reliable national Census on the planet. In fact even SEMCOG uses the Census.

You say stuff as if it's fact when you're one of the least knowledgeable people one here. Metro Detroit is growing differently than it was, spatially, than it was during the previous decade. This is a fact.

This quote is a pretty good encapsulation of the boosters on DYes. Completely, utterly absurd and delusional.

[Gpwrangler]

That's because no one's wages have gone up. Can't buy houses if people aren't making money. Don't worry, once [[or if ever) the economy kicks up again, the sprawl machine will get going.

The economy is rockin'. But Howell is too far of a commute for most folks.

[BankruptcyGuy]

A WSJ article from 2014:

http://www.wsj.com/video/americans-r...1-7C7C6FC49CC5

From Governing Magazine:

http://www.governing.com/gov-data/ce...ates-data.html

You can zoom in on Detroit.

I think there is substantial argument over what "growth" means--is it absolute growth, growth as a percentage of the current population, or change in that growth rate?

If you were able to segregate the growth in just the downtown-midtown areas from the remainder of Detroit, I'd guess you'd see:

a decent amount of absolute growth;
a large amount of growth as a percentage of the pre-existing population; and
an astronomical change in the growth rate.

Does the absolute growth there exceed other cities or counties? I don't know.
Is the change in the growth rate newsworthy and exciting? You betcha.

[RO_Resident]

You have no clue what you're talking about.

First, the Census is the only source for such data, and I am only repeating the results from the Census. You don't like the Census results, so you attack the source. No, "The Census is lying and hates Detroit" is not a reasonable response.

SEMCOG is NOT a source for population or permits data. They don't even have the staff to attempt such an endeavor. The Census Bureau has tens of thousands of workers including hundreds of stats PhDs sifting through the data. They're probably the most reliable national Census on the planet. In fact even SEMCOG uses the Census.



This quote is a pretty good encapsulation of the boosters on DYes. Completely, utterly absurd and delusional.

SEMCOG has done a monthly survey of all communities in the region for residential building permits since 1969. Quick, better tell them they don't have the capacity to do something they have been doing for 45 years.
http://www.semcog.org/data/apps/permits.cfm

They also sent out a press release for their new population estimates this morning. That's quite apropos of them.
http://library.semcog.org/InmagicGen...cember2014.pdf

As an aside, I went to school with the guy that heads their demographics department. Last time I checked, Michigan hadn't revoked his PhD.

[MSUguy]

SEMCOG has done a monthly survey of all communities in the region for residential building permits since 1969. Quick, better tell them they don't have the capacity to do something they have been doing for 45 years.
http://www.semcog.org/data/apps/permits.cfm

They also sent out a press release for their new population estimates this morning. That's quite apropos of them.
http://library.semcog.org/InmagicGen...cember2014.pdf

As an aside, I went to school with the guy that heads their demographics department. Last time I checked, Michigan hadn't revoked his PhD.

There you go using facts and not just spouting off.

I have never seen someone so continually determined to proving their ignorance.