Construction on the Penske Tech Center for M1 light rail has begun

**innercitydoc** · February-16-15, 08:38 AM

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...ings/23461455/

**Tramhamck** · February-16-15, 10:09 AM

Figured with the recent activity at the site that we would be getting renderings soon. I can live with this. At least it fronts Woodward.

**emu steve** · February-16-15, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by catalogofoddities

Figured with the recent activity at the site that we would be getting renderings soon. I can live with this. At least it fronts Woodward.

Good.

Bye the way, the M-1 naysayers have another crow breakfast today.

The important thing for revitalizing Woodward Ave. from the river to... is that something appealing be on as many blocks fronting Woodward as possible [[which are developable).

**Dexlin** · February-16-15, 11:16 AM

Only slightly related, but does anyone know who owns the square block directly to the north of this site [[i.e. northeast corner of Woodward and Bethune), you know in "front" of the old Michigan Bell Madison Exchange?

**Tramhamck** · February-16-15, 12:00 PM

According to "Why Don't We Own This?" it looks like that stretch is divided up into 8 parcels, most of them owned by a Matthew Lelli or Lelli's Inn Inc. The City of Detroit owns one small parcel on the northeast corner. It sounds like there used to be a restaurant called Lelli's there that is the first iteration of Lelli's Inn in the 'burbs. I would imagine it's just the family that still owns it.

**Tramhamck** · February-16-15, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by catalogofoddities

According to "Why Don't We Own This?" it looks like that stretch is divided up into 8 parcels, most of them owned by a Matthew Lelli or Lelli's Inn Inc. The City of Detroit owns one small parcel on the northeast corner. It sounds like there used to be a restaurant called Lelli's there that is the first iteration of Lelli's Inn in the 'burbs. I would imagine it's just the family that still owns it.

http://www.hourdetroit.com/Hour-Detr...-on-the-Green/ It looks like they closed the Bethune location in 2000.

**RickBeall** · February-16-15, 01:12 PM

The rendering looks like a elementary school for the 1960's. I guess that is the "please everybody a little bit" school of design.

**innercitydoc** · February-16-15, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by catalogofoddities

According to "Why Don't We Own This?" it looks like that stretch is divided up into 8 parcels, most of them owned by a Matthew Lelli or Lelli's Inn Inc. The City of Detroit owns one small parcel on the northeast corner. It sounds like there used to be a restaurant called Lelli's there that is the first iteration of Lelli's Inn in the 'burbs. I would imagine it's just the family that still owns it.

It would be nice if something were to happen with that parcel as well as that abandoned shop to the north of it. Hopefully there will be some transit oriented development to come. I own one of the Crosswinds condos across the street and would love to see it increase in value at least some.

**bailey** · February-16-15, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by emu steve

Good.

Bye the way, the M-1 naysayers have another crow breakfast today.

The important thing for revitalizing Woodward Ave. from the river to... is that something appealing be on as many blocks fronting Woodward as possible [[which are developable).

I'm an M1 naysayer... I'll eat crow when "M1 light Rail" is actually that which it claims to be. it's a trolley and parking shuttle. I don't think the construction of a maintenance shed makes it anything more.

**emu steve** · February-16-15, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by innercitydoc

It would be nice if something were to happen with that parcel as well as that abandoned shop to the north of it. Hopefully there will be some transit oriented development to come. I own one of the Crosswinds condos across the street and would love to see it increase in value at least some.

Should be interesting to see values there [[Crosswinds) with the new arena coming...

I can't help but believe that with all of the new buildings coming across the street, including residential, a probable hotel, etc. can't help but increase the desirably of the neighborhood.

**bailey** · February-16-15, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by emu steve

Should be interesting to see values there [[Crosswinds) with the new arena coming...

I can't help but believe that with all of the new buildings coming across the street, including residential, a probable hotel, etc. can't help but increase the desirably of the neighborhood.

that is a question... wasn't living near OTS [[and having to deal with the traffic and crowds) one of the main complaints of those living in Corktown?

**emu steve** · February-16-15, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

that is a question... wasn't living near OTS [[and having to deal with the traffic and crowds) one of the main complaints of those living in Corktown?

Agree. The big thing is more residential, including hoteling, in the immediate area which will lead to more activity 365 days a year... That should make the area more desirable, safer, more amenities, etc.

**innercitydoc** · February-16-15, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by emu steve

Should be interesting to see values there [[Crosswinds) with the new arena coming...

I can't help but believe that with all of the new buildings coming across the street, including residential, a probable hotel, etc. can't help but increase the desirably of the neighborhood.

I own one of the one's north of Grand Blvd known as Lofts at New Center across from this development. Rebound hasn't been as brisk due to the location being further down Woodward.

**emu steve** · February-16-15, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by innercitydoc

I own one of the one's north of Grand Blvd known as Lofts at New Center across from this development. Rebound hasn't been as brisk due to the location being further down Woodward.

Oops. I didn't understand your post.

**dtowncitylover** · February-17-15, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

I'm an M1 naysayer... I'll eat crow when "M1 light Rail" is actually that which it claims to be. it's a trolley and parking shuttle. I don't think the construction of a maintenance shed makes it anything more.

And it's already starting to be was it claims to be. And yes it is a trolley, what's your point?

**bailey** · February-17-15, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

And it's already starting to be was it claims to be. And yes it is a trolley, what's your point?

that is false. M1 RAIL was SUPPOSED to go from Jefferson to the Fair grounds. It was SUPPOSED to be a first phase of a regional system of light rail. so, how about we stop calling a street car "light rail"? stop spending hundreds of millions on a vanity project that the region will eventually be paying for that doesn't get one "walking man" from his home in detroit to his job in the suburbs any better? Bascially stop falling for the bread and circuses around here...every.single.time.?

let me be absolutely clear... I'm not arguing for the status quo of no rail or coherent mass transit. I'm arguing against what is clearly going to be People mover II service for the Green Zone. I'm not saying I won't use it all the time...I will, because it's being built for people like me to use. Just stop calling it something it's not and stop with all the ball spiking endzone dances because it's not going to do anything about our stupid fucked up transit problems here for the people that actually NEED it to be fixed.

**Khorasaurus** · February-17-15, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

that is false. M1 RAIL was SUPPOSED to go from Jefferson to the Fair grounds. It was SUPPOSED to be a first phase of a regional system of light rail. so, how about we stop calling a street car "light rail"? stop spending hundreds of millions on a vanity project that the region will eventually be paying for that doesn't get one "walking man" from his home in detroit to his job in the suburbs any better? Bascially stop falling for the bread and circuses around here...every.single.time.?

let me be absolutely clear... I'm not arguing for the status quo of no rail or coherent mass transit. I'm arguing against what is clearly going to be People mover II.

1) It's $140 million, the vast majority of which is private donations that "the region" is never, ever going to have to pay for. And the rest is Federal money that would have ended up building something on the other side of the country. That's less than half of what the People Mover cost, adjusted for inflation.

2)3.3 miles in a straight line is nothing to sneaze at. It's going to be more reliable, efficient, easier to use, and cooler than the busses. It will be heavily used by students, workers, residents, and visitors to the area it serves.

3) Yeah, it has it's flaws. Yeah, it should be longer and should be in the center of the road and should have a better operating plan after five years than "hand it to the RTA," but your vitriol is uncalled for. It's a big step forward and it cost the the various local governments of SE Michigan $0 and the State of Michigan only the cost of road repairs to Woodward they needed to do anyway.

Save your anger for when we spend $2 billion dollars to re-do I-94, which would be enough money at M-1 Rail's per-mile cost to build light rail to Pontiac AND to the airport [[or do 100 other transit improvements or fill pot holes or build schools or whatever).

**dtowncitylover** · February-17-15, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

that is false. M1 RAIL was SUPPOSED to go from Jefferson to the Fair grounds. It was SUPPOSED to be a first phase of a regional system of light rail. so, how about we stop calling a street car "light rail"? stop spending hundreds of millions on a vanity project that the region will eventually be paying for that doesn't get one "walking man" from his home in detroit to his job in the suburbs any better? Bascially stop falling for the bread and circuses around here...every.single.time.?

let me be absolutely clear... I'm not arguing for the status quo of no rail or coherent mass transit. I'm arguing against what is clearly going to be People mover II service for the Green Zone. I'm not saying I won't use it all the time...I will, because it's being built for people like me to use. Just stop calling it something it's not and stop with all the ball spiking endzone dances because it's not going to do anything about our stupid fucked up transit problems here for the people that actually NEED it to be fixed.

And I'll also say false. DTOGS, the plan proposed by DDOT, was originally going from the Jefferson to State Fair and use light rail [[in the Minneapolis/Dallas sense). M-1 Rail was always the 3.3. mile line we have today using a Portland streetcar mode. Though streetcars are a type of light rail, as there are still "lighter" than a subway, which is heavy rail.

I know you don't call for the status quo, none of us do, but to stay this PM 2.0 is absolutely false. This is modern, well-used, and documented technology, being built in a straight line through three distinct and growing neighborhoods that can be, and will be, expanded into Highland Park and up to who knows? State Fair? Royal Oak? Only time will tell.

I would say it's a step in the right direction of fixing our transit problems because it's adding to our transit portfolio. This isn't going to cut bus wait times, but that's not what it's supposed to do. That's another DDOT issue

**Bobl** · February-17-15, 10:51 AM

Previous post: "...It sounds like there used to be a restaurant called Lelli's there that is the first iteration of Lelli's Inn in the 'burbs..."
Yes, and it was a great restaurant at one time. It then went on a decades long decline, trading on its past reputation. Paralleled the state of the City, I guess.

**Junjie** · February-17-15, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

that is false. M1 RAIL was SUPPOSED to go from Jefferson to the Fair grounds. It was SUPPOSED to be a first phase of a regional system of light rail. so, how about we stop calling a street car "light rail"...

Yes, there's definitely been plenty of light rail / streetcar confusion in the media, but M-1 has never claimed to be light rail and was initially planned as a streetcar. This has been explained a few times at least on this board by professorscott and others.

Front page of the M-1 website:

"M-1 RAIL is a non-profit organization formed in 2007 to lead the design, construction, and future operation of a 3.3-mile circulating streetcar..."

From their FAQ:

"Wasn’t the rail line supposed to travel 9-miles?
Initially, after completing significant analysis, M-1 RAIL recommended implementation of a 3.3 mile fixed rail modern streetcar; however in 2010 M-1 RAIL decided to partner with the City of Detroit and other government agencies in an attempt to lengthen the project to be a 9-mile Light Rail Transit [[LRT) System. In 2011 it was determined for fiscal reasons the LRT was not going to be feasible. In late 2011, M-1 RAIL embarked on re-envisioning and validating for a shorter 3.3-mile modern streetcar system. ... "

I'd also strongly disagree that this is "People Move 2" or "bread and circuses". The streetcar will actually move people usefully around an area that's too big to walk. You yourself admit you'll use it. So will a whole bunch of tourists, fans on game days, etc. in a way that the People Mover was never really used.

I expect this to do well. Detroit badly needs a demonstration of successful rail transit. Once this is up and running with the arena built out [[~50 more event days) and continued development in the area, I'd expect to see pressure to extend it if ridership is good. Again, according to those more knowledgeable than myself on this board the designed transition from curbside stops to center-running stops at the north and south ends of the line is intended for precisely such a scenario - streetcar mode through the 3 miles of midtown/downtown, but faster center-running more LRT-like service is still possible outside that area.

**Khorasaurus** · February-17-15, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

I'm not saying I won't use it all the time...I will, because it's being built for people like me to use. Just stop calling it something it's not and stop with all the ball spiking endzone dances because it's not going to do anything about our stupid fucked up transit problems here for the people that actually NEED it to be fixed.

Just wanted to reply to your edit, because I actually completely agree with this paragraph. It's going to be great for people that hang out in the greater downtown area but not really help the people that desperately need service.

**bailey** · February-17-15, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Khorasaurus

1) It's $140 million, the vast majority of which is private donations that "the region" is never, ever going to have to pay for. And the rest is Federal money that would have ended up building something on the other side of the country. That's less than half of what the People Mover cost, adjusted for inflation.

The whole thing is supposed to be turned over the the yet to be created [[although it was supposed to be created a few years ago to even get that federal money) Regional Authority. 140 millin doesn't pay for it to run in perpetuity, it's a large chunk of the start up ..... come back in 10 years and let's talk about all that private money paying to maintian the roads, the tracks, and maintain the fleet of that aging rolling stock.

2)3.3 miles in a straight line is nothing to sneaze at. It's going to be more reliable, efficient, easier to use, and cooler than the busses. It will be heavily used by students, workers, residents, and visitors to the area it serves.

3.3 miles of trolley on the regions busiest bus lines. That COULD already be used by those students, workers and residents and visitors if the busses actually ran on time and if they didn't have an aversion to riding on the bus with the poors. Of course, the poors will be riding the trolley too and that trolley will still be stuck in the same traffic behind the bus that's stalled out in the right lane....so not sure if we'll see the magical explosion of riders on non game/special event day. The backbone of the ridership is the folks that would have been on the bus.

3) Yeah, it has it's flaws. Yeah, it should be longer and should be in the center of the road and should have a better operating plan after five years than "hand it to the RTA," but your vitriol is uncalled for. It's a big step forward and it cost the the various local governments of SE Michigan $0 and the State of Michigan only the cost of road repairs to Woodward they needed to do anyway.

It's not "vitriol" it's bemused resignation. the defense of the project here just re-affirms it... "yes there's no plan to run it or maintain it...but at least we didn't pay to build it!"

Save your anger for when we spend $2 billion dollars to re-do I-94, which would be enough money at M-1 Rail's per-mile cost to build light rail to Pontiac AND to the airport [[or do 100 other transit improvements or fill pot holes or build schools or whatever).

Again,I'll save my "anger" for things that I can change. pissing money away on road projects is something that will never change here because 70% of registered voters choose to let the 30% elect the legislators that decide policy.

**dtowncitylover** · February-17-15, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

The whole thing is supposed to be turned over the the yet to be created [[although it was supposed to be created a few years ago to even get that federal money) Regional Authority. 140 millin doesn't pay for it to run in perpetuity, it's a large chunk of the start up ..... come back in 10 years and let's talk about all that private money paying to maintian the roads, the tracks, and maintain the fleet of that aging rolling stock.

3.3 miles of trolley on the regions busiest bus lines. That COULD already be used by those students, workers and residents and visitors if the busses actually ran on time and if they didn't have an aversion to riding on the bus with the poors. Of course, the poors will be riding the trolley too and that trolley will still be stuck in the same traffic behind the bus that's stalled out in the right lane....so not sure if we'll see the magical explosion of riders on non game/special event day. The backbone of the ridership is the folks that would have been on the bus.

It's not "vitriol" it's bemused resignation. the defense of the project here just re-affirms it... "yes there's no plan to run it or maintain it...but at least we didn't pay to build it!"

Again,I'll save my "anger" for things that I can change. pissing money away on road projects is something that will never change here.

1) The RTA was created, it hasn't been properly funded.

2) And yes I think there will be more riders because the perception that buses have here in metro Detroit. You think the Detroit tourists in Chicago ride the buses there? No, they're all on the El because it's novel and shiny. The buses can run on time all they want, but they're still buses.

3) And maybe if we didn't save our anger for things that can change and directed them to things that "can't change", those things would change. Money funds can change, they just chose not to because reasons and constitution, basically all BS.

**bailey** · February-17-15, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

1) The RTA was created, it hasn't been properly funded.

ok...seriously? By that logic, I'm a billionaire... I just haven't properly funded my accounts.

2) And yes I think there will be more riders because the perception that buses have here in metro Detroit. You think the Detroit tourists in Chicago ride the buses there? No, they're all on the El because it's novel and shiny. The buses can run on time all they want, but they're still buses.

but the people that actually USE the system to get those silly jobs and stuff keep those buses full too... and those buses aren't totally redundant with the EL running right next to them in traffic. But, you're overall point is true, and the entire endeavor is catering to those that don't rely on transit, but use it based on its shiny novelty.

3) And maybe if we didn't save our anger for things that can change and directed them to things that "can't change", those things would change.

That's the quickest way to get an ulcer and become jaded. Instead I moved... for a long while. And I came back knowing full well I'd be giving up certain amenities to gain others.

**dtowncitylover** · February-17-15, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

ok...seriously? By that logic, I'm a billionaire... I just haven't properly funded my accounts.

www.rtamichigan.org

I'm not sure that's a proper analogy because just getting it created was an amazing feat for Michigan. You're not a billionaire because you don't have the proper funds. The RTA is the RTA because it's created, was given the authority, but we need to give it money to actually do it's job.