Was Ilitch seriously considering moving the Red Wings out of Detroit?

MAcc · February-10-15, 05:07 PM

I still can't wrap my head around giving him $284.5M in taxpayer dollars to move his arena less than one mile. I don't see how it stimulates anything for the economy, outside of the construction jobs while its being built. Furthermore, he was collecting the Detroit parcels, I never read anything about him collecting suburban land if the Detroit public funding didn't come to fruition.

And if he wasn't bluffing, what suburban locations was he considering? I always suspected the failed Bloomfield Park development [[US-24@Square Lake/I-75) or somewhere around Plymouth would have been prime, but never heard anything about other areas being considered.

**Richard** · February-10-15, 05:20 PM

Link ? Or some source of validation? Or scare tatics?

**Dan_the_man** · February-10-15, 05:29 PM

As far as I know, there was never any threat to move out to the suburbs. He just wanted a new arena and is buddies with enough politicians to get lots of money. Now in the '70's there was a very real threat that the Wings would move out, prompting CAY to quickly throw up Joe Louis and offer it to the team for almost nothing.

DetroitBoy · February-10-15, 05:50 PM

Who cares?

There's a new arena being built. Does that upset you so much you have to start another thread to spew your unhappiness with the Ilitch family?

It's done. Get over it.

**animatedmartian** · February-10-15, 05:53 PM

I don't recall there being a possibility of this happening recently, but it wouldn't be that hard for him to do so. Land is a lot cheaper out in the suburbs and so are taxes. Ilitch also wouldn't have to deal with historic buildings and could build his dream suburban complex with little to no fuss.

**professorscott** · February-10-15, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by MAcc

I still can't wrap my head around giving him $284.5M in taxpayer dollars to move his arena less than one mile. I don't see how it stimulates anything for the economy, outside of the construction jobs while its being built. Furthermore, he was collecting the Detroit parcels, I never read anything about him collecting suburban land if the Detroit public funding didn't come to fruition.

And if he wasn't bluffing, what suburban locations was he considering? I always suspected the failed Bloomfield Park development [[US-24@Square Lake/I-75) or somewhere around Plymouth would have been prime, but never heard anything about other areas being considered.

There is a huge difference between the completely isolated location of the existing arena and the neighborhood the Ilitch family wants to construct along Woodward. By the way, let me make something clear: I'm generally opposed to using public funds for the benefit of wealthy owners of professional sports teams, and the arenas thereby constructed rarely benefit anyone but those owners to any great degree.

But, with a grain of salt, this aligns with other developments such that it might make an actual difference, increasing public participation in the new neighborhood. Joe Louis was hopeless; it's not part of any neighborhood and never really can be, because of where it is. The new arena is part of the, let's call it, M1 Rail corridor, so there's some synergy with that.

So my conclusion is that I am somewhat less irked by spending public money on this arena project than I am by that practice in general, because this might have spinoff accomplishments, helping in the overall redevelopment of the neighborhood.

As far as the question posed in the thread title: no, not for a second, but it's a credible threat to hold over the heads of recalcitrant politicians, and the Ilitch family did not become wealthy by being imbeciles.

**detlump** · February-10-15, 08:12 PM

I think Ilitch owns a large parcel of land in Farmington Hills, bounded by 12 Mile, Drake, and 696. Currently it is largely undeveloped but it has soccer fields on it - Soccer Soccer! It would be possible to build an arena there with its own freeway access. I would think that Drake could be closed off to through traffic to the south, as there are some very nice homes just south of 696 off Drake. I think Ilitch is too committed to Detroit but like any good business man, he keeps his options open.

**iheartthed** · February-10-15, 09:08 PM

No: http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...ngs-arena-plan

**Gistok** · February-10-15, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

No: http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...ngs-arena-plan

Thanks for posting that iheartthed.... they may not have much leverage any longer with the arena.... but the Park Ave./Eddystone hotels they do have leverage... and I hope the city decides not to budge...

**antongast** · February-10-15, 09:35 PM

Of course he wasn't. I don't think he ever even pretended he was. He simply asked the city and state for a handout, and got one. Our public officials are evidently of the persuasion that giving public money to Mike Ilitch is a social good in itself.

**detroitbob** · February-11-15, 05:07 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitBoy

Who cares?

There's a new arena being built. Does that upset you so much you have to start another thread to spew your unhappiness with the Ilitch family?

It's done. Get over it.

Well said, DetroitBoy...well said.

**Bham1982** · February-11-15, 07:19 AM

No one cares. Metro Detroiters love "bread and circuses."

The chances of Illitch moving the Wings somewhere other than Detroit were 0%. Illitch could easily build this arena on his own, as has been done by many sports team owners in his financial bracket. Instead, taxpayers are hit up for $300 million, for nothing.

Just look at the DYes threads on the arena. People seriously think relocating an arena a mile north is going to be some huge net bonus, as if current attendance was zero or something, as if hockey fans currently don't spend money downtown, and as if downtowns revitalize based on 40 annual hockey games.

**artds** · February-11-15, 07:50 AM

There was talk of the new arena being built in Livonia at I-96 and Middlebelt. I believe Livonia pitched that site to Ilitch 8 years ago.

**rb336** · February-11-15, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by antongast

Of course he wasn't. I don't think he ever even pretended he was. He simply asked the city and state for a handout, and got one. Our public officials are evidently of the persuasion that giving public money to Mike Ilitch is a social good in itself.

Tax Increment Financing. Paying for the arena with tax money that wouldn't exist without the arena. Sort of a reverse Catch-22

**chicagoforlife** · February-11-15, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

No one cares. Metro Detroiters love "bread and circuses."

The chances of Illitch moving the Wings somewhere other than Detroit were 0%. Illitch could easily build this arena on his own, as has been done by many sports team owners in his financial bracket. Instead, taxpayers are hit up for $300 million, for nothing.

Just look at the DYes threads on the arena. People seriously think relocating an arena a mile north is going to be some huge net bonus, as if current attendance was zero or something, as if hockey fans currently don't spend money downtown, and as if downtowns revitalize based on 40 annual hockey games.

So your beef is with building a new arena? I've been to games at Joe Louis and the place is a dump in an isolated part of town, you have 20,000 people crammed into one level with a cramped concourse, it's outdated as can be. I think it'll have a net bonus on the neighborhood surrounding it, look at all the new development it'll spur if the final result is what they say it'll be. The Red Wings have needed a new arena for about 20 years now.

**warsaw7** · February-11-15, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitBoy

Who cares?

There's a new arena being built. Does that upset you so much you have to start another thread to spew your unhappiness with the Ilitch family?

It's done. Get over it.

You sir are ok in my book

. I will never cast the troll label on you anymore!

**Hermod** · February-11-15, 12:51 PM

I would think that a good businessman going into negotiations would have some sort of weapon like a move to the burbs to display to the other side at appropriate moments in the discussion.

**softailrider** · February-11-15, 03:38 PM

I remember going to games at Olympia. If you think Joe Louis arena is a dump and in an out of the way area, how about a venue on Grand River and McGraw? Everybody seems to think that place had some type of warmth and charm to it.

**yaktown** · February-11-15, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by detlump

I think Ilitch owns a large parcel of land in Farmington Hills, bounded by 12 Mile, Drake, and 696. Currently it is largely undeveloped but it has soccer fields on it - Soccer Soccer! It would be possible to build an arena there with its own freeway access. I would think that Drake could be closed off to through traffic to the south, as there are some very nice homes just south of 696 off Drake. I think Ilitch is too committed to Detroit but like any good business man, he keeps his options open.

That property is a Farmington Hills city park, sponsored by Little Caesars. It's only 9 acres in size, too small methinks for an arena and all the attendant parking.

**night-timer** · February-12-15, 05:42 AM

Mike Ilitch would need a substantial number of incentives to take the Wings away from 'Hockeytown'. Can't see it happening, and it isn't, as we all know.

I think Downtown, Midtown and Foxtown around Woodward will be bouncing when the new venue opens in 2017.

MAcc · February-12-15, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by night-timer

I think Downtown, Midtown and Foxtown around Woodward will be bouncing when the new venue opens in 2017.

Yeah, there's always just one missing piece, huh?

Late 90s, "I think Downtown, Midtown and Foxtown around Woodward will be bouncing when the Tigers and Lions move in."

2017 you'll say, "I think Downtown, Midtown and Foxtown around Woodward will be bouncing if the Pistons move into the new arena."

2020 you'll say, "I think Downtown, Midtown and Foxtown around Woodward will be bouncin if we could just get the M1 out to Royal Oak."

**southen** · February-12-15, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by MAcc

Yeah, there's always just one missing piece, huh?

Late 90s, "I think Downtown, Midtown and Foxtown around Woodward will be bouncing when the Tigers and Lions move in."

2017 you'll say, "I think Downtown, Midtown and Foxtown around Woodward will be bouncing if the Pistons move into the new arena."

2020, you'll say, "I think Downtown, Midtown and Foxtown around Woodward will be bouncing when if we could just get the M1 out to Royal Oak."

almost as bad as the posters who spew the same garbage and refuse to acknowledge any progress whatsoever no?

**dtowncitylover** · February-12-15, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by MAcc

Yeah, there's always just one missing piece, huh?

Late 90s, "I think Downtown, Midtown and Foxtown around Woodward will be bouncing when the Tigers and Lions move in."

But that is already happening! Downtown and midtown are much more bouncing than they ever were in the 90s! That's not strictly because of the two stadiums, but it's nice to have to two important venues close together in a central location.

I can't speak for the future but adding a third and an transit line sure won't hurt either. The tram won't go out to Royal Oak because that's not its intended purpose. Its purpose is to serve the residents who live and move here, who work and visit here too, not shuttle in Royal Oakers. Though extending it out that way isn't a bad idea.

**antongast** · February-12-15, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitBoy

Who cares?

There's a new arena being built. Does that upset you so much you have to start another thread to spew your unhappiness with the Ilitch family?

It's done. Get over it.

It matters because this keeps happening, and the life span of these publicly funded sports facilities keeps shrinking. St. Louis and the state of Missouri are about to blow $400 million of public money to build a brand new football stadium right next to a perfectly good twenty-year-old one whose construction they're still paying off. Our football stadium is, what, 13 years old now? Won't be long, I'm sure, before the other fossilized plutocrat who owns the Lions decides he could use some more luxury boxes or some shit. Or, hell, what's to stop Ilitch from asking for a new baseball stadium in four or five years when Comerica hits the two-decade mark? We need to figure out how to learn from our mistakes, or these scams will just get bigger and more frequent.

MAcc · February-12-15, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

But that is already happening! Downtown and midtown are much more bouncing than they ever were in the 90s!

No, not even close. Memory loss or denial? You realize Wayne State and DMC existed in midtown in the 90s, right? You realize college kids, grad students and young MDs have always lived in midtown, right? You realize there were 250K more middle class people living in Detroit in the 90s, right? Didn't city employees have to live in city proper prior to 2000? You realize Detroit has always had construction and restaurants, right?

I'll acknowledge progress when I see it. So far, I've just seen more of the same. [[And the 2020 census will show <500K population).