Defund the DPS!

[mwilbert]

This was in the Free Press today:

http://www.freep.com/article/2009080...Public-Schools

I don't actually agree with the whole thing--in particular I don't understand why a "donation tax credit" system would be required for this to be done and there is no explanation given in the oped piece,

But the fundamental idea seems unarguable--if you can reform the schools at all, which is unproven, it would take a long time. You could get quicker and surer results by changing to a choice system.

The piece does not say this, but I also believe that it would take even longer before people believed the schools were reformed. If you want to attract more middle-class people with children to the city, giving them control of their school funding would be one way that would be very likely to work, and much faster than it could ever be achieved by reforming the schools.

[elganned]

"Schools of choice" is a thinly-veiled euphemism for "segregation"--by race, class, income level, religion, political viewpoint, or some other criteria. Those who can afford to be educated will be; the rest will fall by the wayside. Maybe that's a result you wouldn't mind seeing, but I think it would be lamentable.

As a nation we espoused the principle of universal public education as far back as the Northwest Ordinance of 1787. We should not abandon that principle now simply because it is no longer easy and convenient.

[mwilbert]

Personally I would prefer a well-performing public school system, but there isn't much prospect of that. In any case, isn't the DPS is already pretty much all children who are poor and non-white? Even assuming the results would be as you say, how much more segregation could we achieve?

In any case, public schools aren't the only way of providing universal public education, and I would deny that we are providing anything close to universal education in the DPS now.

[Novine]

He's advocating that we give each parent $13,500 to spend on private schools with zero accountability for how those taxpayer funded dollars are spent?

[bailey]

He's advocating that we give each parent $13,500 to spend on private schools with zero accountability for how those taxpayer funded dollars are spent?

as if there is accountability now?

The guy is clearly advocating the use of vouchers, not just a lump sum in cash.

[DetroitTeacher]

I really think Robert Bobb is paving the way for DPS. At least he's doing SOMETHING! I can see what the Freep is saying but I also see the other side. After the 4th Wednesday count, many of our students are "expelled" from charter schools. The charters received the cash for the students [[and DPS didn't). Where else do the kids go but back to DPS? I see this system draining the funds for those kids who stay in DPS. Sure, we get the money for the kids who stuck it out but we don't have the funding for the kids who return after charter schools don't want them anymore. I don't see this working unless the receiving schools are forced to keep the kids who enroll for the entire year [[which won't happen because they can be selective, whereas public schools have to accept everyone). I see kids return after attending charters or a month or two and they are that much more behind in what we are doing in the classroom [[since there is no statewide common curriculum).

[EastSider]

He's advocating that we give each parent $13,500 to spend on private schools with zero accountability for how those taxpayer funded dollars are spent?

Those "tax payer dollars" come out of those same families' pockets in the first place, don't they?

Detroit needs to think big and bold to turn the city around, and I think this fits the bill.

[Novine]

"Those "tax payer dollars" come out of those same families' pockets in the first place, don't they?"

They do? Who here pays $13,500 in school taxes each year? The last thing Detroit needs is taxpayer dollars being spent with zero accountability.

[irish_mafia]

Novine,
You are missing the point. Those are the current taxpayer dollars that are paid out per student for the worst example of shame in Education in this country. He is simply saying that these dollars should be applied to school systems that work.

I have been an advocate of this for years [[That doesn't do much for you, I realize). It is a game changer. Now, kids move "into" Detroit to get the vouchers instead of "out of Detroit."

More importantly, you start to educate children. At least two generations have been lost to illiteracy and lack of proper education. IT IS TOO EXPENSIVE to continue to allow this.

[DetroitTeacher]

The "other" school systems work because there are typically more involved parents. Private schools and such are successful because the parents are there for the kids. What happens when the private schools get the same kids that I see day in and day out who don't want to be in school, whose parents aren't involved in ANY way, who cause trouble, and who don't try? They will end up just like DPS. A school system is only as good as the people in it. Don't get me wrong, DPS is NOT doing an adequate job but teachers aren't being given the tools necessary to do that job in today's global/technological world [[in addition to no support at home from parents). We can only do so much. We need to fix things from the top if we expect change to happen at the bottom.

[Det_ard]

So DT, given the vast number of kids saddled with shitty parents [[make that singular most likely), is there a proven way to turn the kids into good students despite their parents' apathy and ignorance? It's borderline criminal what's happened to a couple generations of kids. But if there isn't a way to make a difference given their upbringing outside of the impossible task of radically changing the inner-city poverty culture, why should we continue to pour $1.2 billion each year down a rat hole?

Take $200 million and spend it wisely on the kids with motivated parents. Take the other billion each year and put it in a fund for the other kids' perpetual social welfare payments. Why spend it on 13 years of public school at $10K/year when they'll graduate [[if they graduate) with no better than a 5th grade education? Hell, they can pick up most of that just watching TV.

The 20,000 learners get a good education with the $200 million, the other 80,000 can learn urban farming or how to tear down houses for scrap since they won't be getting a $35/hr job at Fords when they're 18. Better they learn how to subsist at some minimal level than waste all that education money on them and have the government not be able to afford the social programs they'll need for the rest of their lives.

Or is there some brilliant strategy that's going to come out of Rev. David Murray, Marie Thornton and the rest of the buffoons on the board of the DPS that'll save them? Even Bobb hasn't got enough magic in his pocket to fix what is a deep-seated cultural problem of the low-socioeconomic idiocracy.

[EastSider]

"Those "tax payer dollars" come out of those same families' pockets in the first place, don't they?"

They do? Who here pays $13,500 in school taxes each year? The last thing Detroit needs is taxpayer dollars being spent with zero accountability.

It may not add up to that much, but local, state and federal monies all trickle into the schools' coffers.

Your "accountability" argument is laughable when you consider the Retarded Reverend David Murray made it through the primary. Here's a man who was found to be a neglectful parent by a court of law, and he's directing the education of my kids?

And you wonder why people are pulling their kids out of DPS?

[DetroitTeacher]

I agree, we need to rid DPS of its dead weight [[teachers, staff, board, admin). I don't have the golden answer that will make it all better for the kids. I do my part with what I have and who the parents send me. I think one of the answers is to get people in DPS who actually care about the kids and their education. Another answer is to start getting parents involved [[I don't know how since most parents don't want to come to the school unless we take a kid's cell phone or there is a fight that they feel the need to be involved in). I've invited parents to sit in on my class, invited them to chaperone the few field trips we are allowed to take [[all paid for by an outside source), invited them to performances of their kids' poetry and mini skits...not ONE has shown up in the 13 years I've been teaching. Heck, I see an average of 5 parents [[out of 140 kids) at Parent Teacher Conferences and they are never the parents I really need to see. I can't get a parent on the phone when there is an issue. If you were the kids, how would YOU feel about your education if no one at home gave a damned?

Are there good students and good parents? Sure. I see the problem from the inside out. I am NOT saying DPS is not at fault...they have the majority of the fault. I have seen classes combined in the middle of a card marking because we lost teachers [[for various reasons). I've seen teachers sleeping in class. There are a myriad of problems that need to be addressed. I just don't know that giving kids vouchers is the answer because they can always come back to us but we'll have no funding to give them the basics. Right now, at least I have the bare minimum with which to do my job...they can't cut much more from me since I have little to begin with. I have a chalkboard, and not enough books. THAT is what I work with on a daily basis. I even buy my own chalk!

Sort of dismantling DPS altogether and only having private and charter schools in the city, I don't see an answer. Once the charters and private schools get tired of some of the kids for their chenanigans, fights, weapons, etc where are the kids going to go when they get kicked out? Right now, they come back to DPS. By law, they have the right to a public education.

[Locke09]

I read the article yesterday and thought that it was irresponsible. Imagine all of the parents out there trying to find a place for their child with autism or ADHD or some other special need. I don't see any "schools of choice" advertising for those students and don't even know of any prepared to handle those students. I also imagine the students with caring parents [[yes plural) who simply cannot transport them to the "schools of choice". What will they do? Then, the idea that we can afford to, or even morally should, throw away good kids who happen to have bad parents is appalling.

[EastSider]

I read the article yesterday and thought that it was irresponsible. Imagine all of the parents out there trying to find a place for their child with autism or ADHD or some other special need. I don't see any "schools of choice" advertising for those students and don't even know of any prepared to handle those students. I also imagine the students with caring parents [[yes plural) who simply cannot transport them to the "schools of choice". What will they do? Then, the idea that we can afford to, or even morally should, throw away good kids who happen to have bad parents is appalling.

Irresponsible is continuing the same-old, same-old and expecting somehow "things" magically change.

"If only" this or "if only" that.

Things don't change if things don't change. Change doesn't magically happen once an arbitrary level of "consultation" and "town hall meetings" are held to "gather the community's input." Change happens when a person acts.

The "community" who most often speaks up at public meetings are led by the professional loafer/loser class of Call 'Em Out. I think you should have to present your resume to be publically vetted before you're allowed to speak at public meetings. Let's see Agnes Hitchcock, her grapes and the rest of the "disability" scam artists defend their life-style then.

The people like Retarded Reverend Murray are trying to claim that Robert Bobb is trying to dismantle or otherwise "destroy" public education in Detroit.

BULLSHIT. DPS is dying principally because of Mr. Bobb's critics. The Retarded Reverent, Marie Thornton and the rest of them are the cause of DPS's destruction. This plan just unlocks the gates so the passengers in steerage don't automatically go down with the ship. They may not all make it, but at least we're giving them a fighting chance.

The parents with autistic kids and "ADHD" are already searching around for answers for their children, so that hand-wringing concern is crap.

[Maxine1958]

DetroitTeacher, I'm curious, what subject/grade do you teach?

[firstandten]

Irresponsible is continuing the same-old, same-old and expecting somehow "things" magically change.

"If only" this or "if only" that.

Things don't change if things don't change. Change doesn't magically happen once an arbitrary level of "consultation" and "town hall meetings" are held to "gather the community's input." Change happens when a person acts.

The "community" who most often speaks up at public meetings are led by the professional loafer/loser class of Call 'Em Out. I think you should have to present your resume to be publically vetted before you're allowed to speak at public meetings. Let's see Agnes Hitchcock, her grapes and the rest of the "disability" scam artists defend their life-style then.

The people like Retarded Reverend Murray are trying to claim that Robert Bobb is trying to dismantle or otherwise "destroy" public education in Detroit.

BULLSHIT. DPS is dying principally because of Mr. Bobb's critics. The Retarded Reverent, Marie Thornton and the rest of them are the cause of DPS's destruction. This plan just unlocks the gates so the passengers in steerage don't automatically go down with the ship. They may not all make it, but at least we're giving them a fighting chance.

The parents with autistic kids and "ADHD" are already searching around for answers for their children, so that hand-wringing concern is crap.

While I agree with you with your post, let me say that I believe its more so the governance structure at fault rather than the people. There are some good people on the board but the structure and the politics don't allow them to make good decisions based on the welfare of the children. Remember the goal of any politican good or bad is to get re-elected . The decisions they make are based on that objective. I agree with Stephen Henderson of the Freep when essentially the papers position of no endorsement was not because there weren't good people running but the governance structure is outdated and not conducive to educating children.

In a city like Detroit with a shaky economic structure government entities such as city government and school district represents cash cows. Its comes down to jobs and contracts and as a politican if you don't fall in line with that way of thinking you won't be in office for long. And even if one can't give jobs and contracts then they better keep in place what's there.

Can you realistically see any school board member .. lets say even the best board member you can think of as being able to cut as far and deep as Mr. Bobb has ?

Mr. Bobb is in a unique position of being accountable to no one other than a lame-duck governor. Remember as school board president in DC he didn't get it done and was ousted by the mayor.

[DetroitTeacher]

I teach English in a high school. I also have inclusion in my room with a hodge podge of gen ed, special ed, and kids with ASD [[autism).

[Maxine1958]

I teach English in a high school. I also have inclusion in my room with a hodge podge of gen ed, special ed, and kids with ASD [[autism).

Wow, English, in high school. I should be shocked, but sadly I am not.

[mwilbert]

Wow, English, in high school. I should be shocked, but sadly I am not.

You should not be shocked, this is just educational jargon. In any case, inclusion is a perfectly good noun, so you can have it in your classroom.

[DetroitTeacher]

Wow, English, in high school. I should be shocked, but sadly I am not.

Why? Please explain yourself.

I also don't get how English in a high school is educational jargon. Maxine asked a question, I answered it. Inclusion is educational jargon.

[mwilbert]

My point [[apparently not clearly made) was that "inclusion" in the sense Detroitteacher used it is jargon. I didn't think Maxine1958 recognized that, and therefore thought the usage awkward, particularly for an English teacher.

Of course, I could have been mistaken about that. Sorry for being confusing.

[Locke09]

Irresponsible is continuing the same-old, same-old and expecting somehow "things" magically change.

"If only" this or "if only" that.

Things don't change if things don't change. Change doesn't magically happen once an arbitrary level of "consultation" and "town hall meetings" are held to "gather the community's input." Change happens when a person acts.

The "community" who most often speaks up at public meetings are led by the professional loafer/loser class of Call 'Em Out. I think you should have to present your resume to be publically vetted before you're allowed to speak at public meetings. Let's see Agnes Hitchcock, her grapes and the rest of the "disability" scam artists defend their life-style then.

The people like Retarded Reverend Murray are trying to claim that Robert Bobb is trying to dismantle or otherwise "destroy" public education in Detroit.

BULLSHIT. DPS is dying principally because of Mr. Bobb's critics. The Retarded Reverent, Marie Thornton and the rest of them are the cause of DPS's destruction. This plan just unlocks the gates so the passengers in steerage don't automatically go down with the ship. They may not all make it, but at least we're giving them a fighting chance.

The parents with autistic kids and "ADHD" are already searching around for answers for their children, so that hand-wringing concern is crap.

I didn't mention Bobb or refer to anything that Bobb is doing. I never mentioned or referred to the school board either. I said anyone talking about defunding public education in Detroit and leaving parents to find a school of choice should have an answer for special needs kids because the current charter schools and schools of choice don't have one. I stand by that sentiment.

No one here is asking for magic or suggesting continuing "the same thing." But I stand by my statement that cavalier talk of defunding public education in Detroit is irresponsible. It's so easy to blow something up. But planning and building requires skill and intelligence, not magic.

And unless you have an autistic child, please don't tell me what's crap! Don't tell me what people with autistic kids are doing, I know first hand.

[mwilbert]

But I stand by my statement that cavalier talk of defunding public education in Detroit is irresponsible. It's so easy to blow something up.

I deny it is irresponsible. What is irresponsible is continuing to do what we do now. Even if every child with an autism spectrum diagnosis in Detroit were getting a good education, which they are not, that wouldn't justify the results the rest of the population is getting.

Nor is there any justification for the idea that special-needs children would necessarily be disadvantaged by this type of change--there is no reason all children have to get the same amount of support. We already spend more money on special-needs students, and there is no reason we couldn't spend more money on special-needs students in the absence of the DPS.

Does that mean that the disestablishment of the DPS could not be done badly or inequitably? Of course not. It is, however, important to remember that the DPS is already run badly and inequitably. We aren't talking about a merely bad school system, but one that is widely considered one of the worst in the country, if not the worst. There are lots of reasons for that, many of them not under the control of the school system or its employees. But the current system has failed to deal with these issues, and perhaps a model [[or several models) with different incentives and different groups of people trying things may produce better results. In any event, it isn't very likely to produce worse results, and it is likely to make Detroit a much more attractive place to live for parents who care about education.

[Locke09]

Of course continuing to do what we're doing now would be irresponsible. Again, no one is saying otherwise. Are they? But that does not mean that defunding public education in Detroit [[I am intentionally avoiding specifying DPS) is the only other answer. It's just the easiest and most glib answer. And an answer that eliminates a system without specifics on how you would build something better in place of what you eliminated just happens to fit my own personal definition of irresponsible.

But, maybe you can just give everyone a $13,500 voucher and all will be right with the [[educational) world in Detroit.