The American Badass Pontificates on Detroit's poor, uneducated

**Dan Wesson** · January-29-15, 08:26 PM

http://www.mlive.com/entertainment/d..._story_package

**rjlj** · January-29-15, 08:53 PM

Can't argue with him there.

Originally Posted by Dan Wesson

http://www.mlive.com/entertainment/d..._story_package

**Scottathew** · January-30-15, 09:31 AM

There are people that work with me that live paycheck to paycheck, with lots of debt. I'm looked at as a personal finance guru and cheapskate. I tell them what they need to do, and how they need to do it to improve their financial situations. But when they get their bonus checks and tax returns they just waste them, instead of eliminating high interest debt.

Some people choose to be in the situations they are in, and will gladly choose to stay in them, even when opportunity to improve comes.

As a society we need to concentrate our efforts on helping the willing improve, get educated, and get jobs.

**nain rouge** · January-30-15, 09:48 AM

Kid Rock is right, but if they were to figure anything out, it would be that it's time to leave Detroit. Metro Detroit was built up as a mecca of industry. That bet has gone sour in recent decades. Though the economy has adapted, I'm not convinced it's transitioned well enough to support the current metro population.

This is a completely non-scientific estimate, but I'd say there are at least 500,000 people that should just leave the Detroit area as soon as possible. I'm not sure if that's what the Kid meant exactly, but it makes perfect sense to me.

**Wesley Mouch** · January-30-15, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by 48307

There are people that work with me that live paycheck to paycheck, with lots of debt. I'm looked at as a personal finance guru and cheapskate. I tell them what they need to do, and how they need to do it to improve their financial situations. But when they get their bonus checks and tax returns they just waste them, instead of eliminating high interest debt.

Some people choose to be in the situations they are in, and will gladly choose to stay in them, even when opportunity to improve comes.

As a society we need to concentrate our efforts on helping the willing improve, get educated, and get jobs.

7, you're dead on with your summary. Jobs are the result of education and willingness to improve. Energy spent on bitching about the 1% and about racism hold us back.

You've got to accentuate the positive
eliminate the negative
Latch on to the affirmative
But don't mess with mister inbetween

[[and they don't mean affirmative action!, just affirmative.)

**Shai_Hulud** · January-30-15, 11:04 AM

Well, obviously there need to be support programs for people who are truly in need and opportunity for those who want to improve.

However, most lottery winners go broke providing strong evidence that there is no amount of cash that will get you out of poverty if that poverty is a result of poor financial and life decisions.

I think the most important factors for getting out of poverty and increasing wealth in general are education, steady employment/income and patience. The last of which includes everything from not buying nice things to putting off having children.

By all means, people should help the poor. But the things that will make you or break you financially, no one can do for you.

**nain rouge** · January-30-15, 11:12 AM

Oh, brother. Don't pats yourselves on the back too hard. Let me give you a friendly pat, instead.

Wesley Mouch, I commend your educational attainment and willingness to improve in order to avoid poverty.
Shai_Hulud, I commend your educational attainment, steady employment history, and exemplary patience, without which you would now be mired in poverty.
48307, your fiscal responsibility - in particular your avoidance and elimination of any high interest debt - is extraordinary and the key to your present comfort.

I would appreciate if the good members of this board would stand up and applaud these three marvelous posters. Through thrift and behavior, they've thwarted the poverty menace within their personal spheres. Bravo!

**noise** · January-30-15, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

7, you're dead on with your summary. Jobs are the result of education and willingness to improve. Energy spent on bitching about the 1% and about racism hold us back.

This is maybe half of the equation. You may choose to focus on that, but you're simply missing the other half.

Inequality and racism absolutely does exist. Ignoring it or pretending it doesn't exist is absurd.

**davewindsor** · January-30-15, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Shai_Hulud

...

I think the most important factors for getting out of poverty and increasing wealth in general are education, steady employment/income and patience. The last of which includes everything from not buying nice things to putting off having children. ...

And don't forget getting drugs off the streets for getting people out of poverty. The crack addicted street beggar that gets more money, still spends all his money to buy more crack which supports the mafia and terrorists while those in poverty stay in poverty. The city needs more jails and tougher drug laws like three strikes. Kid Rock should be locked up for promoting the drug lifestyle. Can you believe this guy wants to legalize cocaine and heroin? http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/art...287533581.html

**Scottathew** · January-30-15, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by nain rouge

Oh, brother. Don't pats yourselves on the back too hard. Let me give you a friendly pat, instead.

Wesley Mouch, I commend your educational attainment and willingness to improve in order to avoid poverty.
Shai_Hulud, I commend your educational attainment, steady employment history, and exemplary patience, without which you would now be mired in poverty.
48307, your fiscal responsibility - in particular your avoidance and elimination of any high interest debt - is extraordinary and the key to your present comfort.

I would appreciate if the good members of this board would stand up and applaud these three marvelous posters. Through thrift and behavior, they've thwarted the poverty menace within their personal spheres. Bravo!

I sense sarcasm here.

My point wasn't that I improved my own personal situation, my point is that my friends that are "broke" [[but don't live in poverty by any means), willingly choose to spend every dollar they receive.

I laid out for my friend that his 27% interest rate car note was going to rob him of over $21,000 over the life of the loan.

If he spent his bonus and tax return on paying off the 27% interest rate debt, he would actually have more money to spend on stupid shit he doesn't need.

However, because a dollar in the hand now is a dollar to be spent, he can't do it. He thinks getting a new computer and xBox One is more important than putting his family in a better financial situation.

The moral of the story is that some people are content to be in a bad situation. Despite the hours I spent with him analyzing his financial situation and providing recommendations, he will implement none of them. He has no discipline, complains about living paycheck to paycheck, but refuses to exercise any effort or restraint to improve his situation.

We need to help those that want to be helped, and let the people who are unchangeable lie in the bed they make.

**Det_ard** · January-30-15, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by noise

This is maybe half of the equation. You may choose to focus on that, but you're simply missing the other half.

Inequality and racism absolutely does exist. Ignoring it or pretending it doesn't exist is absurd.

True, but when a job applicant with a Detroit HS diploma can't read a ruler, add or subtract, their most immediate problem is their lack of education and therefore lack of employability.

**Scottathew** · January-30-15, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Det_ard

True, but when a job applicant with a Detroit HS diploma can't read a ruler, add or subtract, their most immediate problem is their lack of education and therefore lack of employability.

Not to mention the high percentage of children that don't even get that HS diploma and drop out. Not graduating high school is an inexcusable failure of parenting.

**nain rouge** · January-30-15, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by 48307

He has no discipline, complains about living paycheck to paycheck, but refuses to exercise any effort or restraint to improve his situation.

Sounds like he's not really impoverished, though. Many Americans live above their means by carrying tons of debt. Heck, our nation lives above its means that way. It's an entirely different topic.

**Shai_Hulud** · January-30-15, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by nain rouge

Oh, brother. Don't pats yourselves on the back too hard. Let me give you a friendly pat, instead.

I would appreciate if the good members of this board would stand up and applaud these three marvelous posters. Through thrift and behavior, they've thwarted the poverty menace within their personal spheres. Bravo!

I'm sensing hostility.

No, I wasn't born into generational poverty so I'll never truly know what that's like. Excuse me if I trivialized. But poverty is not a complete mystery.

Lack of access to education, employment, and healthcare are the major issues. It is a societal failure that the those in poverty do not have this, not a personal failure of the impoverished themselves. They also have to deal with additional traps like the stigma, greater access to drugs, alcohol and criminality, scams, violence and I'm sure a number of other things that simply do not occur to an arguably middle class person.

No, real poverty is not a personal failure, but like anything else is hopeless without personal responsibility.

**nain rouge** · January-30-15, 02:24 PM

Ah yes, the armchair experts with the bootstraps theory. Most Americans believe that communism encourages a higher degree of poverty. But the thought that capitalism may systematically doom a portion of society to poverty - unthinkable. It's an issue of bootstraps.

**Scottathew** · January-30-15, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by nain rouge

Ah yes, the armchair experts with the bootstraps theory. Most Americans believe that communism encourages a higher degree of poverty. But the thought that capitalism may systematically doom a portion of society to poverty - unthinkable. It's an issue of bootstraps.

I don't subscribe to the Bootstraps Theory. If you'll read my posts, I said,

As a society we need to concentrate our efforts on helping the willing improve, get educated, and get jobs.

My point was that the subjects of our efforts need to be willing. Some people will always be poor because they refuse to be anything else. Some people will want more, take advantage of opportunities, and thrive.

I've said nothing about poor people needing to create their own opportunities.

**Scottathew** · January-30-15, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by nain rouge

Ah yes, the armchair experts with the bootstraps theory. Most Americans believe that communism encourages a higher degree of poverty. But the thought that capitalism may systematically doom a portion of society to poverty - unthinkable. It's an issue of bootstraps.

I don't subscribe to the Bootstraps Theory. If you'll read my posts, I said,

As a society we need to concentrate our efforts on helping the willing improve, get educated, and get jobs.

My point was that the subjects of our efforts need to be willing. Some people will always be poor because they refuse to be anything else. Some people will want more, take advantage of opportunities, and thrive.

I've said nothing about poor people needing to create their own opportunities.

Also, there's no need to apply the "armchair" label to people here. We're all here to exchange thoughts and ideas. Some of us are more directly involved, and some of use are not. It's a message board. People aren't usually very declined or able to comment on their official capacities.

**nain rouge** · January-30-15, 03:26 PM

I personally believe we have two big problems: wages are too low, and people subconsciously know they're being cheated. When you see someone take on debt to get a bachelor's and they only get a $14/hour a job, while you can half-ass your way to a $9/hr job with barely a high school degree... well, you're gonna have a motivational problem. Add in the obvious wealth inequality and cold-hearted wage busting we see corporations doing, and people can see the odds are rigged.

Are there opportunities out there that aren't being fully utilized? Sure. If you get the right degree at the right time and put yourself in the right situations, you can still do well. But I'd argue there aren't enough good opportunities out there overall. That's where the whole "millenials" are lazy/lost meme comes in.

**rjlj** · January-30-15, 03:51 PM

This is a perfect example of poor mindset by playing the blame game which is part of the problem. There are tons of opportunities. Obtain skills that employers are looking for and you will find work, plain and simple. Things are not rigged, make your own way in life and stop making excuses.

Originally Posted by nain rouge

I personally believe we have two big problems: wages are too low, and people subconsciously know they're being cheated. When you see someone take on debt to get a bachelor's and they only get a $14/hour a job, while you can half-ass your way to a $9/hr job with barely a high school degree... well, you're gonna have a motivational problem. Add in the obvious wealth inequality and cold-hearted wage busting we see corporations doing, and people can see the odds are rigged.

Are there opportunities out there that aren't being fully utilized? Sure. If you get the right degree at the right time and put yourself in the right situations, you can still do well. But I'd argue there aren't enough good opportunities out there overall. That's where the whole "millenials" are lazy/lost meme comes in.

**nain rouge** · January-30-15, 04:17 PM

What part of what I wrote wasn't true?

**Wesley Mouch** · January-30-15, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by noise

This is maybe half of the equation. You may choose to focus on that, but you're simply missing the other half.

Inequality and racism absolutely does exist. Ignoring it or pretending it doesn't exist is absurd.

I agree. Inequality and racism absolutely exist. It would be absurd to ignore or pretend that they don't exist.

They are a factor. So what can you do about them. You can sit, cry, complain, and discuss till you're blue in the face. Or you can just get to work. Get educated. Succeed. Or you can cry about how you been done wrong all day long. Whining doesn't solve problems. Whining distracts from problem solving. Spend the time building bridges. Stop wasting energy blaming racism and inequality for every problem.

**Hypestyles** · January-30-15, 04:54 PM

Interesting. For whatever it's worth, Mr. Ritchie seems to have done more public charity events and one-offs than Mr. Mathers, who often seems hermit-like unless he's promoting a new record.

"People say the [[Detroit) river is clean and the beavers are back, but why?," said Rock for a story in the magazine's March issue that's out now for iPad. "Because there's no [[expletive) industry left

Detroit's local and regional leaders need to attract newer and sustainable alternative industries. Detroit has to evolve far beyond the overdependence on automobile related and heavy-manufacturing operations. The state legislature, for their part, has to stop being politically hostile to Detroit by custom, and design policies that are actually helpful to grow the city's economy.

**Wesley Mouch** · January-30-15, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by Hypestyles

...snip...The state legislature, for their part, has to stop being politically hostile to Detroit by custom, and design policies that are actually helpful to grow the city's economy.

When you say, 'by custom' or 'design policies', you are reading motive into their actions. You may be right. Consider that you might be wrong.

Look at the bankruptcy. I would suggest to you that enabling Detroit's bankruptcy was a policy that has helped Detroit grow. Others think it was a conspiracy to steal power. Who's right? What were their intentions? I don't know.

Judge on actions, not intent.

**noise** · February-01-15, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Det_ard

True, but when a job applicant with a Detroit HS diploma can't read a ruler, add or subtract, their most immediate problem is their lack of education and therefore lack of employability.

Certainly. And I'm not at all the type to ignore personal accountability in favor of systemic blame, but my point was simply that it's not all or nothing.

**noise** · February-01-15, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

I agree. Inequality and racism absolutely exist. It would be absurd to ignore or pretend that they don't exist.

They are a factor. So what can you do about them. You can sit, cry, complain, and discuss till you're blue in the face. Or you can just get to work. Get educated. Succeed. Or you can cry about how you been done wrong all day long. Whining doesn't solve problems. Whining distracts from problem solving. Spend the time building bridges. Stop wasting energy blaming racism and inequality for every problem.

Sure. But that leaves room for those of us with an education and good job to deal with these uglier issues.