Penobscot Observation Deck To Reopen?

**mikeg19** · January-28-15, 01:31 PM

In an otherwise useless article, there was one tidbit at the end that Triple Properties [[I know, I know, take whatever they say with a grain of salt) is exploring the reopening of the observation deck on the Penobscot as a tourist draw. I for one would champion that, as it's arguable one of the top views in the city. I'll hope that this promise actually happens.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...ight/22465593/

**Khorasaurus** · January-28-15, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by mikeg19

In an otherwise useless article, there was one tidbit at the end that Triple Properties [[I know, I know, take whatever they say with a grain of salt) is exploring the reopening of the observation deck on the Penobscot as a tourist draw. I for one would champion that, as it's arguable one of the top views in the city. I'll hope that this promise actually happens.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...ight/22465593/

That would be awesome.

Although while they were talking about the red ball, why didn't the writer ask them about the crown lights, some of which are burned out, and none of which turn on until after 9 PM, even though it gets dark at 5 this time of year?

**ABetterDetroit** · January-28-15, 02:27 PM

If changing the light fixtures is really hard for the owner, I would guess that giving her exterior a cleaning is out of the question [[she is filthy). The observation deck would be great but I have little faith that this is nothing more than lip service, considering Andreas Apostopoulos track record of delivering on what he claims he is going to do.

**animatedmartian** · January-28-15, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

If changing the light fixtures is really hard for the owner, I would guess that giving her exterior a cleaning is out of the question [[she is filthy). The observation deck would be great but I have little faith that this is nothing more than lip service, considering Andreas Apostopoulos track record of delivering on what he claims he is going to do.

Ugh, can he just sell the building and go away? I'm sure someone would pay him a pretty good amount to buy the Penosbcot right about now.

**dtowncitylover** · January-30-15, 10:23 AM

They seem pretty serious about it...

http://www.wxyz.com/news/historic-pe...eck-in-detroit

And a company is offering free labor to fix the lights...

**davewindsor** · January-30-15, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by mikeg19

In an otherwise useless article, there was one tidbit at the end that Triple Properties [[I know, I know, take whatever they say with a grain of salt) is exploring the reopening of the observation deck on the Penobscot as a tourist draw. I for one would champion that, as it's arguable one of the top views in the city. I'll hope that this promise actually happens.

I'm just curious. Are you one of those "champions" on here that expect everything for free or would you commit to paying 20 bucks to go up to the observation deck if they reopened it? It costs a lot of money to operate. You have to pay security guards to watch it, maintenance costs, insurance, wear and tear on the elevators, etc... Everybody wants this and that in the city because they think it would be cool, but when it comes down to pulling out some bills from their wallet to contribute, they are nowhere to be found.

**Detroitdave** · January-30-15, 10:58 AM

With the track record of the building owner ,I'll believe it when I see it.
Who buys an icon building and can't afford to replace lights ?????
This would never fly in NYC ,Chicago, SF, Ect .
The owner is a bottom feeder , buying building for pennies on the dollar and doing NOTHING with them.
come on really? talk is cheap, and actions speak louder than words.
I'll gladly swallow my words if this happens.

**Khorasaurus** · January-30-15, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

They seem pretty serious about it...

http://www.wxyz.com/news/historic-pe...eck-in-detroit

And a company is offering free labor to fix the lights...

If they really install color-change LED crown lights like the Empire State Building has, that would be really cool. It would also mean that our three tallest buildings would all have the capability to celebrate major events by changing the colors of their crowns.

But with Apop's track record, I'll believe it when I see it.

**Detroitdave** · January-30-15, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

I'm just curious. Are you one of those "champions" on here that expect everything for free or would you commit to paying 20 bucks to go up to the observation deck if they reopened it? It costs a lot of money to operate. You have to pay security guards to watch it, maintenance costs, insurance, wear and tear on the elevators, etc... Everybody wants this and that in the city because they think it would be cool, but when it comes down to pulling out some bills from their wallet to contribute, they are nowhere to be found.

I would gladly pay $20.00 to go to the observation deck. I realize it's not for free, heck you have to pay to go to the top of Rock plaza , so why not expect to pay here ?

I would totally pay $20.00 , not much more though. And I wouldn't do it often.

**davewindsor** · January-30-15, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitdave

I would gladly pay $20.00 to go to the observation deck. I realize it's not for free, heck you have to pay to go to the top of Rock plaza , so why not expect to pay here ?

I would totally pay $20.00 , not much more though. And I wouldn't do it often.

Honestly, I wouldn't pay $20 to go up there. I don't see a demand for it because we've already got the Ren Centre. I've gone to the restaurant at the top of the Ren Centre before, which is higher, bought a drink [[spending less than that) and went down again. But, if the day comes that it does open, we'll see if people are willing to pay $20 to go there and whether enough people go for it to at least break even. I guessing it won't, but we'll see I guess...

**animatedmartian** · January-30-15, 11:57 AM

I think $20 would be too much. That's how much it is for the Willis Tower observation deck in Chicago, but that building is probably twice as high and has a bigger floor. Plus there's souvenir merchandise all over the place. The Penobscot should be around $7-$10, maybe more if they actually make it a major tourist destination.

**davewindsor** · January-30-15, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by animatedmartian

I think $20 would be too much. That's how much it is for the Willis Tower observation deck in Chicago, but that building is probably twice as high and has a bigger floor. Plus there's souvenir merchandise all over the place. The Penobscot should be around $7-$10, maybe more if they actually make it a major tourist destination.

I couldn't imagine it being as low as $7-$10. Downtown Detroit just doesn't have the volume of tourists in downtown like Chicago does to get enough people visiting the observation deck to make it work. Maybe if it's open on game days and special event days only. But still, why go there when you can go to the higher Ren Centre?

**mkd** · January-30-15, 12:18 PM

Carew Tower in Cincinnati is $2 I believe and Terminal Tower in Cleveland is $5. At both, you just take the normal elevator to the appropriate floor and that's it. Pretty simple concept, I doubt the operating costs are high.

**nain rouge** · January-30-15, 12:31 PM

Put a glass roof on it and make it a bar.

**WPitonya** · January-30-15, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

I couldn't imagine it being as low as $7-$10. Downtown Detroit just doesn't have the volume of tourists in downtown like Chicago does to get enough people visiting the observation deck to make it work. Maybe if it's open on game days and special event days only. But still, why go there when you can go to the higher Ren Centre?

Even though the RenCen is approximately 160 feet taller, I guess one would go to the Penobscot because it's outside, which is pretty cool. It would be a totally different feeling being out there on a nice summer day rather than inside on the top floor of the RenCen.

**mikeg19** · January-30-15, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

I'm just curious. Are you one of those "champions" on here that expect everything for free or would you commit to paying 20 bucks to go up to the observation deck if they reopened it? It costs a lot of money to operate. You have to pay security guards to watch it, maintenance costs, insurance, wear and tear on the elevators, etc... Everybody wants this and that in the city because they think it would be cool, but when it comes down to pulling out some bills from their wallet to contribute, they are nowhere to be found.

Not really sure what you mean by "champion".

But yea, I'd gladly pay to go to the top and get a great view of the city. It'll give a different perspective of the city from that view rather than the Ren Cen. As to whether or not it would cost a lot of money to operate, I'm not sure how so. You're gonna have 3 or 4 security guards making $9 an hour and that's you main blockade to this happening? I doubt it. They'll put up a steel cage like the Empire State Building or a glass facade so nobody jumps, and away we go. And what "maintenance" does an outdoor observation deck need? A good powerwash once a year? A guy to sweep it at night once it's closed? Yes, extra insurance costs would be in this, but "wear and tear" on the elevator? Gimmie a break. Normal maintanance on the elevators should be just fine. It's a minimal cost attraction for people willing to fork over $10-$15 bucks for a thrill. And I doubt it'd be open 24 hours a day. If you did it Thurs-Sun from 6pm-midnight, that would be more than enough I'm sure.

**animatedmartian** · January-30-15, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

I couldn't imagine it being as low as $7-$10. Downtown Detroit just doesn't have the volume of tourists in downtown like Chicago does to get enough people visiting the observation deck to make it work. Maybe if it's open on game days and special event days only. But still, why go there when you can go to the higher Ren Centre?

Because the Ren Cen doesn't have an observation deck. You can't go into Couch Insignia unless you're a customer and you can't take pictures.

**Gistok** · January-30-15, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

I'm just curious. Are you one of those "champions" on here that expect everything for free or would you commit to paying 20 bucks to go up to the observation deck if they reopened it? It costs a lot of money to operate. You have to pay security guards to watch it, maintenance costs, insurance, wear and tear on the elevators, etc... Everybody wants this and that in the city because they think it would be cool, but when it comes down to pulling out some bills from their wallet to contribute, they are nowhere to be found.

Preservation Detroit has been offering downtown tours for decades... and among them are walking tours of the downtown skyscrapers. In fact until recent years that included a stop at the observation deck of the Penobscot Building.

Whatever the costs, you might be surprised to find that there are people willing to pay for them. The downtown theatre tours are $45... and they're always booked to capacity.

**davewindsor** · January-30-15, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by mikeg19

Not really sure what you mean by "champion".

But yea, I'd gladly pay to go to the top and get a great view of the city. It'll give a different perspective of the city from that view rather than the Ren Cen. As to whether or not it would cost a lot of money to operate, I'm not sure how so. You're gonna have 3 or 4 security guards making $9 an hour and that's you main blockade to this happening? I doubt it. They'll put up a steel cage like the Empire State Building or a glass facade so nobody jumps, and away we go. And what "maintenance" does an outdoor observation deck need? A good powerwash once a year? A guy to sweep it at night once it's closed? Yes, extra insurance costs would be in this, but "wear and tear" on the elevator? Gimmie a break. Normal maintanance on the elevators should be just fine. It's a minimal cost attraction for people willing to fork over $10-$15 bucks for a thrill. And I doubt it'd be open 24 hours a day. If you did it Thurs-Sun from 6pm-midnight, that would be more than enough I'm sure.

Let's say at least 4 security guards/employees. You need someone at the lobby entrance to collect the money. One to escort them on the elevator so they don't want wander around the building and probably at least 2 on the observation deck to stop jumpers/penny throwers. Add payroll costs and a medical plan and you're probably looking at around $18 an hour. So, 6 hours x $18 x 4 employees is $432 a day. Now, being that it's an observation deck, the insurance company is gonna say, what happens if someone throws a penny off the deck and the penny lands on someone's head on the sidewalk. The Penobscott's insurance company is gonna get named in a lawsuit. Probably looking at another few hundred a day. With the excess traffic, the insurance company is probably gonna want the elevator inspected every morning. Let's say incidentals another couple hundred bucks. So, we're looking at what, around $900 a day as a break even point.

So if you were running it 4 days a week, you'd need 90 people a day on average at $10 just to break even. I don't see that happening in this city. 45 people a day at $20 sounds like a more realistic price point, but even 45 people visiting it a day sounds like a stretch to me.

**Khorasaurus** · January-30-15, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

Let's say at least 4 security guards/employees. You need someone at the lobby entrance to collect the money. One to escort them on the elevator so they don't want wander around the building and probably at least 2 on the observation deck to stop jumpers/penny throwers. Add payroll costs and a medical plan and you're probably looking at around $18 an hour. So, 6 hours x $18 x 4 employees is $432 a day. Now, being that it's an observation deck, the insurance company is gonna say, what happens if someone throws a penny off the deck and the penny lands on someone's head on the sidewalk. The Penobscott's insurance company is gonna get named in a lawsuit. Probably looking at another few hundred a day. With the excess traffic, the insurance company is probably gonna want the elevator inspected every morning. Let's say incidentals another couple hundred bucks. So, we're looking at what, around $900 a day as a break even point.

So if you were running it 4 days a week, you'd need 90 people a day on average at $10 just to break even. I don't see that happening in this city.

I agree that insurance will be a cost, but $450 a day? That's $160,000 per year. I don't think insurance would cost that much just for the observation deck.

**davewindsor** · January-30-15, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by animatedmartian

Because the Ren Cen doesn't have an observation deck. You can't go into Couch Insignia unless you're a customer and you can't take pictures.

Like I said, I went up there and bought a drink and went back down. They let me take pictures. There was that big king's chair I had a picture taken on--don't know if it's still there--and I took several pictures of the city.

**davewindsor** · January-30-15, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by Khorasaurus

I agree that insurance will be a cost, but $450 a day? That's $160,000 per year. I don't think insurance would cost that much just for the observation deck.

And if one person gets seriously injured a year, do you think their lawyer is gonna ask for less than $160,000?

**Khorasaurus** · January-30-15, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

And if one person gets seriously injured a year, do you think their lawyer is gonna ask for less than $160,000?

Fortunately, that's not how insurance works. By the way, a quick Google search indicates that insuring an entire building the size of the Penobscot costs a couple hundred grand a year. They aren't going to nearly double that just because of an observation deck.

They'd probably ask for it to be fully enclosed somehow to even insure it all, then add a more more reasonable amount onto the premium.

**animatedmartian** · January-30-15, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

Like I said, I went up there and bought a drink and went back down. They let me take pictures. There was that big king's chair I had a picture taken on--don't know if it's still there--and I took several pictures of the city.

And what if people would rather not buy a drink? What if they're not even open? [[They're literally closed half the day and on Sundays) You still can't go up there without being forced to patronize the restaurant and it's not worth going up there to buy something I don't want just so I can do something else. It needs to be a real observation deck.

**davewindsor** · January-30-15, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by Khorasaurus

Fortunately, that's not how insurance works. By the way, a quick Google search indicates that insuring an entire building the size of the Penobscot costs a couple hundred grand a year. They aren't going to nearly double that just because of an observation deck.

They'd probably ask for it to be fully enclosed somehow to even insure it all, then add a more more reasonable amount onto the premium.

An observation deck is a completely different can of worms from offices. It's not like adding another floor of offices to an existing office building. Unless the observation deck is fully enclosed in glass, I can't imagine a "more reasonable" premium. If a penny or marble can get through a mesh or net enclosure, it's a big liability if it hits someone on the sidewalk below. If a jumper manages to jump on the safety net a few times and fall through and then land on someone on the sidewalk below, it's also a big liability.