Ameliorating Poverty and Income Inequality in Detroit

[Canadian Visitor]

I debated whether to put this in Non-Detroit as a national/global issue, or here.

But I settled on the 'Discuss Detroit' forum on the basis that I'm curious about how people would propose to ameliorate these issues in DETROIT.

I think that too often people on every side of this [[and other) issues decide that its a national or global problem and therefore not about them, or their neighbour or their city, or their state/province.

For the sake of discussion poverty can be both 'absolute' [[not enough income to survive without charity/gov't help) and relative [[ a standard of living well below the norm).

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My opening thesis on poverty in general, then Detroit in particular.

In General: Poverty is a function of two large groups the unemployed, and the working poor.

The former includes the unemployable [[severe disability, close to retirement age serious criminal record etc.) as well as those who seek employment but for a number of reasons may not find it.

The latter features people who work, but can't get enough hours, or have such a lousy wage that even a 40-hour week doesn't pay the most meager bills.

Detroit: Faces all the issues that exist around the world and the U.S. with respect to poverty, but additional barriers based on race, and mobility in particular.

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So assuming that no matter one's politics, we can agree there should be enough jobs to go around, and that anyone willing to work 40 hours should have to eat, cover 1/2 decent shelter costs and other basics [[medical care, clothes etc.)

How do those issues get better addressed in the context of Detroit?

I'm not looking for any solution that requires the U.S. Federal government or social revolution.

Practical changes in laws, existing programs, infrastructure investments and the like at the municipal or state levels.

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FYI what triggered this is the NY Governor's proposal for a minimum wage of $10.50 per hour in NYS and $11.50 per hour in NYC [[roughly $12.25 Cdn and $13.45 Cdn) in support of a living wage. Specifically he noted the American Dream that anyone working fullt ime could be self sufficient.

[Danny]

Poverty in Detroit is like urban cancer! It's a disease and spreads without prevention. It comes out of greed, pestilence, arrogance of other people. Folks who dropped out of school and education, Sudden loss of jobs; its very unsolvable! We can put band aid to cover up poverty in Detroit, but the urban disease will keep on growing. We will not get rid of poverty in Detroit or anywhere in America until every lost people in the free country change their way we live.

[Wesley Mouch]

...snip...So assuming that no matter one's politics, we can agree there should be enough jobs to go around, and that anyone willing to work 40 hours should have to eat, cover 1/2 decent shelter costs and other basics [[medical care, clothes etc.)

Yes, I think all reasonable people agree with this -- so the question is how do we deliver jobs, shelter, and the basics.

How do those issues get better addressed in the context of Detroit?
...snip...
Practical changes in laws, existing programs, infrastructure investments and the like at the municipal or state levels.

Now you step into politics, because while we may agree on the general need for a society where everyone can be productive, and nobody is suffering -- there's a great political debate about HOW.

FYI what triggered this is the NY Governor's proposal for a minimum wage of $10.50 per hour in NYS and $11.50 per hour in NYC [[roughly $12.25 Cdn and $13.45 Cdn) in support of a living wage. Specifically he noted the American Dream that anyone working fullt ime could be self sufficient.

In a small percentage of cases, increasing the minimum wage will give certain families enough money to avoid poverty. But the minimum wage is a very crude tool that also will pay retirees working at Walmart to avoid their spouse more money to spend at the casino, because they also have a $50,000 pension. Remember that most minimum wage workers are not heads of household.

If you want to reduce poverty, the best thing you can do is provide good public safety and good education [[with decent subsidized food for students). Support churches to build community. And of course this is best aided by a prosperous society. That doesn't mean richer 1%ers, but it also doesn't mean by tearing down all industry and corporate growth.

Mostly, though, this problem is larger than Detroit. Its also shared by communities across the nation [[and world). The solutions need to come from above. You saw that in the central role that the State of Michigan played in the City of Detroit's reorganization.

[Dan Wesson]

Get rid of Rentier Capitalism and form a less Parasitic Government.

Make everybody an owner of some type.

Allowances for the truly incapable.

Then it becomes a matter of sink or swim.

[sumas]

A matter of sink results in crime.

A few practical suggestions:

There are actually many welfare to work training programs that exist through numerous organizations. Problem is people don't know and transport is a problem too.

Perhaps the state could pay/reimburse for mailings and postings to desiminate whats available from these non profits and make bus passes available for enrollees. A voucher for long johns wouldn't hurt.

case in point, a local rec center has two extensive computer labs. Only middle school, high school kids and retirees can use them. The 18 to 55 yr olds can't use them. The few local libraries with computers can't support demand from people who are actively seeking work.

Reimburse fees to people who pass GEDS.

Just a few thoughts.

[Dan Wesson]

A matter of sink results in crime.

Question, Sumas...

Concerning a matter of sink results in crime.

What about crime that is enabled and subsidized by Government Welfare programs?

Crime is a way to raise one's standard of living if one is good at it. Should we make it easier?

What about a system that is designed to keep the population as serfs?

[Scottathew]

- Increase the minimum wage to $10.50 an hour, and set up automatic inflationary increases
- Decriminalize as much as possible, two big examples, marijuana and prostitution
- Free public education from preschool to community college
- Rein in the cost of public universities
- Welfare to work programs
- Free [[perhaps mandatory) money management training for those in welfare programs
- Accept that there are some people that don't want to better themselves

Those are few of my ideas...

[Canadian Visitor]

- Increase the minimum wage to $10.50 an hour, and set up automatic inflationary increases
- Decriminalize as much as possible, two big examples, marijuana and prostitution
- Free public education from preschool to community college
- Rein in the cost of public universities
- Welfare to work programs
- Free [[perhaps mandatory) money management training for those in welfare programs
- Accept that there are some people that don't want to better themselves

Those are few of my ideas...

Thanks for your ideas!

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The minimum wage suggestion certainly seems do-able; though I take it the current governor wouldn't be interested, could it pass on a ballot in the next election in 2016?

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What do public universities cost in Michigan? What would a reasonable number be? Is there support in the State for that level of public expenditure?

Free community college? Hmm, ambitious! Pricetag? Political will?

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I assume Michigan has Welfare to Work programs now, I don't know, someone feel free to post. IF they are not working sufficiently well, why is that, and how might it be changed to be more effective?


**

I'm in favour of incorporating basic budgeting and 'home economics' into the core curriculum everywhere. I'm not sure how it easy it might be to teach those things post-HS to those that didn't graduate, a certain level of numeracy and literacy being per-requisite.

Which begs another question how to tackle the HS drop out rate.

Its not perfect here in Ontario either, around 84% as I recollect. One thing done were was simply to legislate that you can't leave HS till 18 or graduation whichever comes first; and to add an enforcement option of denying a driver's license to a dropout [[till 18) though I believe this is rarely used.

[professorscott]

This is actually very difficult because nobody has touched the actual problem here; we are all dancing around it. So here goes.

What made Detroit work in the old days was the factory job. A huge number of families were able to make a good living because the provider, usually the father back then, could get [[1) without any higher education [[2) a well-paying job [[3) with benefits that was [[4) full time and he was pretty much assured that he could [[5) keep that job until retirement, after which he would get [[6) a decent pension.

A combination of changes in how the world works, two of which have been globalization and automation, has taken away nearly every single job that has the six characteristics of the old factory work. We can't begin to really tackle systemic poverty in any meaningful way until we can find some way as a society to provide decent jobs, with sufficient pay and benefits to raise a family, to the great mass of people who want to work.

The factory jobs elevated everybody else. In 1960, a school bus driver had a middle-class job with a decent salary and benefits, as did a grocery-store clerk. Not so much anymore. Our problem writ large is a jobs problem more than anything else. I have no idea how to attack this but I think it ought to be the kernel of any poverty discussion.

[Canadian Visitor]

This is actually very difficult because nobody has touched the actual problem here; we are all dancing around it. So here goes.

What made Detroit work in the old days was the factory job. A huge number of families were able to make a good living because the provider, usually the father back then, could get [[1) without any higher education [[2) a well-paying job [[3) with benefits that was [[4) full time and he was pretty much assured that he could [[5) keep that job until retirement, after which he would get [[6) a decent pension.

A combination of changes in how the world works, two of which have been globalization and automation, has taken away nearly every single job that has the six characteristics of the old factory work. We can't begin to really tackle systemic poverty in any meaningful way until we can find some way as a society to provide decent jobs, with sufficient pay and benefits to raise a family, to the great mass of people who want to work.

The factory jobs elevated everybody else. In 1960, a school bus driver had a middle-class job with a decent salary and benefits, as did a grocery-store clerk. Not so much anymore. Our problem writ large is a jobs problem more than anything else. I have no idea how to attack this but I think it ought to be the kernel of any poverty discussion.

Interesting points.

May I offer, whereas factory jobs didn't require advanced education; and were largely higher wage based on the ability of workers to strike and the immobility of larger factories [[relatively) in earlier times.....

Perhaps retail is the new manufacturing? With the exception of some janitorial and like jobs which can be poor paying due to agency/outsourcing etc...

Retail is now the dominate player in hiring lower-skill workers.

Should the 'Costco' model be forced on retail? Higher wages, with higher training, more independence and higher productivity?

Would that require a drastic hike in minimum wages? Should traditional benefits such as dental care, or pensions be either mandates to employers or provided by the state [[enhanced Social Security?).

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Could this be achieved in part by reducing the labour supply? For instance mandating a certain minimum paid vacation, say three weeks? OR by reducing the normative work week, to a 7-hour day or a 4-day week, such that demand for labour exceeds supply, driving better conditions for employees?

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I'm not wedded to any of these ideas, but putting them out there for consideration and debate.

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Also should 'Free Trade' agreements include requirements on maximum work weeks, or minimum paid vacations, such that developed world employees aren't forced to compete with unfairly poor/low-cost labour?

Should Mexico be required to substantially raise a minimum wage that is only [[roughly) $5 per day?

[Scottathew]

What made Detroit work in the old days was the factory job. A huge number of families were able to make a good living because the provider, usually the father back then, could get [[1) without any higher education [[2) a well-paying job [[3) with benefits that was [[4) full time and he was pretty much assured that he could [[5) keep that job until retirement, after which he would get [[6) a decent pension.

Fantastic breakdown!

Change one or two factors, and the situation degrades pretty quickly.

That was what the middle class was built on back then, and now I'd say it looks like this:

[[1) With a higher education [[2) get a well-paying job [[3) with decent benefits that is [[4) full time while [[5) switching employers several times through your career and [[6) living well below your means or [[7) working well into your 60's

I'm rather fortunate that my wife and I are both educated and have decent paying jobs. She'll get a pension, I have a 401K, and either one of us can provide decent benefits for the family.

[belleislerunner]

We could fix it in a generation.

Confirmed by Harvard, the single most important factor blocking social mobility are single parents.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double..._families.html

Stop teaching girls it's okay to get pregnant until there's a ring on it. Stop teaching guys not to wrap it up until there's a ring on it.

There are always anecdotal outliers [[rape, widower/widow) but fixing these behavioral choices are the key to a generation better than the last. And it can be done. It used to be the case.

[Canadian Visitor]

We could fix it in a generation.

Confirmed by Harvard, the single most important factor blocking social mobility are single parents.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double..._families.html

Stop teaching girls it's okay to get pregnant until there's a ring on it. Stop teaching guys not to wrap it up until there's a ring on it.

There are always anecdotal outliers [[rape, widower/widow) but fixing these behavioral choices are the key to a generation better than the last. And it can be done. It used to be the case.

In a world where common-law is increasing the norm for couples, and divorce can be 'no-hassle', I'm not sure I'm stuck on 'the ring'.

But I will concur that teenage parents as well as those who either get pregnant outside a committed relationship or end up outside one, often find themselves very economically challenged.

In so far as delaying pregnancy for the right partner at the right time is desirable, is this a function of more thoughtful and comprehensive sex education?

If parents can't or won't 'teach' a wiser course of behaviour, should the state?

What about Birth Control? Should it be free to young women? Should they be able to access it w/o parental knowledge or consent?

How can the [[typically) male, non-custodial parents be held more accountable?

Is it merely that the former partner doesn't want them around? Do they know their rights or those of their child? Can they afford to access those rights? And if the 'dad' is a school aged teen w/no job, what then?


Just wondering......

[Scottathew]

We could fix it in a generation.

Confirmed by Harvard, the single most important factor blocking social mobility are single parents.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double..._families.html

Stop teaching girls it's okay to get pregnant until there's a ring on it. Stop teaching guys not to wrap it up until there's a ring on it.

There are always anecdotal outliers [[rape, widower/widow) but fixing these behavioral choices are the key to a generation better than the last. And it can be done. It used to be the case.

I agree with you that this would be a HUGE thing to fix. Parents need to open their eyes and not rely on common-sense, abstinence, and a single form of birth control.

I've got a five year old daughter and a three year old son. I plan on doing the following:

1) Offering my daughter the option to get birth control, and telling her I expect her to take the offer if she is sexually active
2) Stressing the importance of avoiding STD's and pregnancy via condoms
3) Letting my kids know that abstinence is preferred, but the most important thing is to not get STDs or pregnant

I hope that my approach works. My parents took a completely hands-off approach and it resulted in my sister getting pregnant at the age of 16 [[gave birth when she was 17).

People need to drop the hard-line abstinence only approach, or the hands-off whatever happens approach that my parents took.

[sumas]

Question, Sumas...

Concerning a matter of sink results in crime.

What about crime that is enabled and subsidized by Government Welfare programs?

Crime is a way to raise one's standard of living if one is good at it. Should we make it easier?

What about a system that is designed to keep the population as serfs?

Sorry, that is a strange post. Please rephrase. For the desparate, of course, crime is a decision. Not a good one but an option.

Serfs??? Which side of the fench are you riding? Condemn or defend?

[mwilbert]

Single parenting may or may not be a problem, but teen pregnancy is at very low levels now.

http://www.cdc.gov/teenpregnancy/aboutteenpreg.htm

And of course a major reason for single parenting is that such a large proportion of young men don't have decent jobs, so young women see no point in marrying them. I'm pretty sure the solution lies elsewhere.

[ABetterDetroit]

A diversified fast growing economy can be a big help. Lots of economic growth can lift many boats.

[sumas]

Living in an urban environment I see lots of strange things. No doubt the birthrate is down for teens. They got stuck raising younger siblings for "baby mamas" changing diapers, doing cooking, cleaning etc is an eye opener for young girls today. Raising a family is tough for affluent and/or non affluent familys is rough.

No clue regarding free birth control availabity. In my day, Planned Parenthood Org., existed and assisted young women and men to opt for birth control while under age without consent. Their clinics got fire bombed etc. The right wingers thought they proponed abortion.

I was 15 when I went to their clinic with my boyfriend, [[without parental consent) got birth control pills and funny thing, we decided to wait. Their lecture and program made clear consequenses. But do gooders made it impossible for for them to do their job effectively so pretty much my attitude, is pay society, for shutting down programs that supported responsible sex.

[Scottathew]

I was 15 when I went to their clinic with my boyfriend, [[without parental consent) got birth control pills and funny thing, we decided to wait. Their lecture and program made clear consequenses. But do gooders made it impossible for for them to do their job effectively so pretty much my attitude, is pay society, for shutting down programs that supported responsible sex.

Thanks for sharing this story. I'm hoping my daughter will do the same, have BC available if she wants it, but wait.

The right-wingers need to concentrate their efforts on savings the lives of the people who are getting killed in all these needless wars, perhaps around 200,000 in Iraq alone as a result of what our country did. To me, killing lots of humans of all ages via war is worse than abortion.

[Wesley Mouch]

Thanks for sharing this story. I'm hoping my daughter will do the same, have BC available if she wants it, but wait.

The right-wingers need to concentrate their efforts on savings the lives of the people who are getting killed in all these needless wars, perhaps around 200,000 in Iraq alone as a result of what our country did. To me, killing lots of humans of all ages via war is worse than abortion.

There's at least one Japanese citizen who right at this moment might disagree with your needless war theory. I commend your interest in defending the innocent, but thousands are being slaughtered each year by their own. Blaming the right-wing here is a bit of a stretch. Would the thousands killed recently by Boko Haram be OK with you, simply because they are Islamist murderers?

[Scottathew]

There's at least one Japanese citizen who right at this moment might disagree with your needless war theory. I commend your interest in defending the innocent, but thousands are being slaughtered each year by their own. Blaming the right-wing here is a bit of a stretch. Would the thousands killed recently by Boko Haram be OK with you, simply because they are Islamist murderers?

If you look at Iraq, we took a stable, terrorism-free country, and destabilized it, resulting in the deaths of countless scores of men, women, and children. We also now have the added bonus of creating a terrorist incubator within Iraq, and now parts of the country are even run by ISIL terrorists.

All of this was done at the cost of trillions of dollars and thousands of US soldier lives.

War kills far more than abortion. Personally, I'm anti-abortion. If I were magically the dictator of the United States, I'm not sure if I would outlaw abortion, or try to draw the line somewhere [[perhaps at the point of viability). But back in the real world, I vote for candidates that are more likely to find diplomatic solutions to problems, and avoid war, because that will save more lives.

I'm sick of all the republicans beating the war drum over situations like Iran and Russia, while exploiting religious issues like abortion.

Limited military action against Boko Haram and ISIL make sense to me. What I detest are the people that beat the Iran and Ukraine\Russia war drum while also being against abortion.

Want to save lives? Vote for people that prefer diplomatic solutions and don't think that the US is exceptional and entitled to be the world police and moral judges.

[CassTechGrad]

The solution has to first be about creating new jobs and expanding the economy. Raising the minimum wage doesn’t add new money into the system. Employers will have to pay for the raise by passing the cost on to you and me in the form of higher prices. If the price of pizza goes up, where do I get the extra money? I’m already struggling just to live now. If enough people can’t afford it and stop buying, the pizza guy goes out of business.

And about needless wars and killing:

MSNBC, October 2, 2014

New rules meant to temper the civilian death toll from unmanned U.S. drones won't apply in the fight against terrorists in Iraq and Syria, the White House says. Rules Obama said last year would stem civilian deaths in Iraq aren't being applied to women and children in the new war against ISIS.

Incidents of civilians being killed by drones have helped fuel resentment for the United States in places like Yemen, Pakistan and Somalia. President Obama said civilian deaths were a facet of every war.

[Scottathew]

Here's an interesting video that may be worth a watch. I certainly don't empathize with the likes of ISIL and Boko Haram, but it may shift perspectives...

[Wesley Mouch]

If you look at Iraq, we took a stable, terrorism-free country, and destabilized it, resulting in the deaths of countless scores of men, women, and children. We also now have the added bonus of creating a terrorist incubator within Iraq, and now parts of the country are even run by ISIL terrorists....

Kurds might disagree, as they think about their dead relatives, as might the prisons where political dissidents were tortured for years. At least our torture, while a terrible thing, was a mistake that we managed to correct.

Want to save lives? Vote for people that prefer diplomatic solutions and don't think that the US is exceptional and entitled to be the world police and moral judges.

We are not entitled to be the world police, but the burden has fallen to us. We shall see how President Obama's foreign policy plays itself out. Syria doesn't seem to have been a success. Iran will be much more interesting. The President fighting against sanctions, while the Iranians keep moving the goal posts will probably leave us with a nuclear Iran in a couple years. Perhaps a nuke on Tel Aviv may change your mind about isolationism and self-absorption. Only time will tell on that too. I prefer the world where the US engages and does its imperfect efforts.

I agree that the US has badly bungled the mid-east. But I'm not sure its any worse than it would have been if we had stayed at home. Thousands of people get killed each month by Islamic Terrorists anyway. Torture happens anyway. Suicide bombings happen anyway. Our presence may have made a difference, but we will never know what would have happened if we'd made the selfish choice and just stayed home. Maybe destroying a 'stable' secular country might have been a good move. Things are never simple.

I'll watch your video now, 48307.

[Hermod]

Why wait for the feds or the state. Detroit has the means to achieve an equal paradise on its own.

1. Raise the city minimum wage to $30 an hour.

2. Provide civil service jobs for any one that an't find a job.

3. Pay for it all with a steeply graduated city income tax reaching 90% on all income over $200,000.

4. Within five years everyone in Detroit will be equal economically.