Wurlitzer Building to be saved, turned into boutique hotel

[davewindsor]

What you're running into is a geometric problem, not a policy problem. You're absolutely right that adding more hotels means fewer spots for a larger volume of people. But that's why building/operating good transit will only become more critical if Detroit continues to rebound. There is simply not enough space for each person to drive and park a car at the densities of a major, healthy downtown business district. It's fine to say that Detroit is the Motor City, but it's still a city, and cities operate under certain geometric facts. One of those is that cars take up too much space for a high density downtown business district to rely solely on them.

Right now Detroit can get away with this because it has a relatively unoccupied CBD relative to successful cities. But if redevelopment continues, this will become less and less feasible. Density and automobile reliance are diametrically opposed in a zero-sum game. You cannot have both. Requiring every new or renovated building in downtown Detroit to build additional parking is not physically workable over the long term, and attempting to do so will hold back the city's redevelopment. Parking is going to get scarcer if Detroit does well, and that's a good and manageable problem to have. It means people want to be in your city and businesses want to locate there. The long-term solution is to build transit so that tens of thousands of people from Oakland County or other parts of the city can take the train and leave Dave from Windsor a parking spot.

Public transportation isn't a practical solution to metro. Most businesses in metro are not located in downtown, but all across metro. If, for example, you're a salesman, it simply isn't practical to travel by bus from downtown Detroit to Troy and several other cities in metro. If you're a manager responsible for several different profit centers across metro, it's just not practical to take the bus. You have to take a car. Metro is spread out so much that public transportation as a solution would fail on so many levels.

[kanfar]

Public transportation isn't a practical solution to metro. Most businesses in metro are not located in downtown, but all across metro. If, for example, you're a salesman, it simply isn't practical to travel by bus from downtown Detroit to Troy and several other cities in metro. If you're a manager responsible for several different profit centers across the region, it's just not practical to take the bus. You have to take car. Metro is spread out so much that public transportation as a solution would fail on so many levels.

Oh for God's sake, let it go! It is just getting boring.You've expressed your opinion and enough is enough.

[Spartan]

x 700 square feet

Not that I totally disagree with your points about the profitability of a garage, but that's a big ass parking spot. Spots are usually about 200 sq ft [[10 x 20). At best, double that for ramp area. The Z-lot, for example, uses less than 400 sq ft per spot [[535,000 - 33,000) / 1,287 = 390 sq ft.

http://www.bedrockmgt.com/properties/specs.php?id=22

Now, with regard to profitability, it would likely be retail/office space that would actually earn the money for the investor. Nobody is going to build JUST a parking garage [[in fact, I think it's against city code right now). I'm sure $713K a year [[which is already a stretch on what the estimate should be) is much less daunting when you have people paying commercial rent. I believe the number I saw before was around $20 sq ft. Using the Z as an example again, they'd be making around $66k per month just from the retail.

And last, there is plenty of parking already in Detroit. No reason a new hotel with only a hundred rooms should need it. The David Whitney didn't build a new garage, and that's a bigger property, which has residences in it. At some point, there will need to be more parking added, but we're not even close to that point. The only time the lots are stressed is for events, and Ilitch opens thousands of spots that aren't normally available to accommodate that. My guess is that they would use valet and rent space from the Opera House [[which, as you outlined, would likely be cheaper than building their own garage somewhere).

[Spartan]

Public transportation isn't a practical solution to metro. Most businesses in metro are not located in downtown, but all across metro. If, for example, you're a salesman, it simply isn't practical to travel by bus from downtown Detroit to Troy and several other cities in metro. If you're a manager responsible for several different profit centers across metro, it's just not practical to take the bus. You have to take a car. Metro is spread out so much that public transportation as a solution would fail on so many levels.

And for the other 4 million people in the area who don't have positions such as those?

[davewindsor]

And for the other 4 million people in the area who don't have positions such as those?

3.5 of that 4 million don't even live in Detroit, so they can avoid the city completely if the city doesn't properly plan for future parking demands.

[animatedmartian]

So you think parking garages generate revenue for their owners? Let's examine this point. It costs on average $59 a square foot to build a parking garage. http://www.fixr.com/costs/build-parking-garage So, let's say you need about 700 square feet for each parking space [[the space, plus access to move into the spot, roads inside the garage, ramp, etc.). So, a 100 parking spots x 700 square feet x $59 is $4.13m. So if a vacant parcel of land for a garage bought from a gouging land speculator is $2m, that comes to $6.13m. Let's say operating costs [[insurance, lighted ceilings, etc.), security surveillance, maintenance, taxes is $100K a year. So, if an investor was looking at a 10% return on their investment, this garage would have to generate $713K a year to generate a decent return for the owner. That's $7,130 a year per spot or around $600 a month [[assuming it's full), which is about $475 more per month than the Compuware garage charges.

What's the break even point? Well if a commercial mortgage for a garage in Detroit is 8%, you would need $590K a year or around $490 a month per spot just to break even on your mortgage payments and expenses [[assuming it's full).

So please explain to me how a garage makes money for its owners as a standalone business? It has to be subsidized by a neighboring business [[ex. the compuware building subsidizing the compuware garage) or by taxpayers [[through grants, subsidies, etc.) because it's always a money loser.

It always somehow leads to subsidization with you.

You didn't add in the revenue generated by those attending downtown events; the sports games, festivals, conventions, etc. Anytime there's an event downtown, parking shoots up to $25 per car. So that'd be like $2500 per downtown event assuming that no car leaves during the duration of the event [[so obviously in real life it would be a lot more). And how many events take place downtown within any given year? Owners of car garages are making beaucoup money.

[davewindsor]

Oh for God's sake, let it go! It is just getting boring.You've expressed your opinion and enough is enough.

I'll never let it go because the parking issue is a serious matter that needs to be addressed.

[davewindsor]

It always somehow leads to subsidization with you.

You didn't add in the revenue generated by those attending downtown events; the sports games, festivals, conventions, etc. Anytime there's an event downtown, parking shoots up to $25 per car. So that'd be like $2500 per downtown event assuming that no car leaves during the duration of the event [[so obviously in real life it would be a lot more). And how many events take place downtown within any given year? Owners of car garages are making beaucoup money.

If you're going to be charging $25 per car per day, you're also going to need live employees running the garage, which is drastically raising your operating expenses. Plus, parking garages are not full throughout the week, so those weekend rates are subsidizing the slow weekdays. At the end of the year, you haven't made jack squat.

[animatedmartian]

If you're going to be charging $25 per car per day, you're also going to need live employees running the garage, which is drastically raising your operating expenses. Plus, parking garages are not full throughout the week, so those weekend rates are subsidizing the slow weekdays. At the end of the year, you haven't made jack squat.

You seem to not be aware at how often major events occur downtown.

[gumby]

I meant to say another major event like the Detroit Annual Fireworks. How many showed up for the Detroit Annual Fireworks? Nonetheless, there's plenty of major events that would strain downtown parking as it is.

But you didn't and therefore showed your ignorance of downtown Detroit. I have been downtown for many major events and have had zero trouble finding a parking spot for a very reasonable rate. If there is a real problem with anything it is traffic management. The traffic lights quit functioning after a certain time and make it impossible to get out of the plentiful parking spots, it took me an hour to get out of the z-garage after a Tigers game that let out the same time as a One Direction concert and another event that I cannot remember.

You are ignoring the fact that the Opera House Garage is directly accross the street from the Wurlitzer and could easily spare the spots needed.

[Lowell]

Oddly enough this back and forth points out a 'good problem' to have. Parking is a barometer of the prosperity and recovery of Downtown Detroit. As with other successful urban centers -- Chicago, New York... higher cost and lower availability of parking is normal and doesn't kill them. It sucks for some no doubt but in my eyes it beats the days when one could have shot a canon down a lot of downtown streets and not hit anybody, car or human.

[davewindsor]

But you didn't and therefore showed your ignorance of downtown Detroit. I have been downtown for many major events and have had zero trouble finding a parking spot for a very reasonable rate. If there is a real problem with anything it is traffic management. The traffic lights quit functioning after a certain time and make it impossible to get out of the plentiful parking spots, it took me an hour to get out of the z-garage after a Tigers game that let out the same time as a One Direction concert and another event that I cannot remember.

You are ignoring the fact that the Opera House Garage is directly accross the street from the Wurlitzer and could easily spare the spots needed.

Can you find parking in the Opera House Garage 15 minutes before the annual fireworks show? Yes or no? Whatever answer you give is going to show your ignorance of downtown.

You know it's not yes.

[davewindsor]

You seem to not be aware at how often major events occur downtown.

Major events are a lot more busy on the weekend than during the Monday to Thursday weekdays. Most out-of-towners have to work during the week. Are you not aware of that?

[southen]

basically your entire argument comes down to having extra garages for YOU when you decide to visit because YOU dont like large cities that arent built like suburbia. my advice to you is to not come here. we wont be missing you and i have a feeling that hotel market downtown will get by without you just fine.

[davewindsor]

Not that I totally disagree with your points about the profitability of a garage, but that's a big ass parking spot. Spots are usually about 200 sq ft [[10 x 20). At best, double that for ramp area. The Z-lot, for example, uses less than 400 sq ft per spot [[535,000 - 33,000) / 1,287 = 390 sq ft.

I've never been in the Z garage, but 390 sq. per spot when you factor in the columns between spots, roads and ramps sounds like a really tight fit moving around inside it. You can't park in the corners if you're going to maximize parking spots. The outer perimeter column spots can only be one parking spot deep. There's staircases and pedestrian elevators and block walls. An up ramp and down ramp. It seems tight, but I haven't been in it.

[davewindsor]

basically your entire argument comes down to having extra garages for YOU when you decide to visit because YOU dont like large cities that arent built like suburbia. my advice to you is to not come here. we wont be missing you and i have a feeling that hotel market downtown will get by without you just fine.

I think I represent the majority of drivers. If you or other people like large cities with very limited parking, "you" can move there. If the city is going to move forward, it has to accomodate the increased traffic; otherwise, businesses will expand in the suburbs and bypass the city. The big picture is you need more parking for the increased traffic.

[southen]

I think I represent the majority of drivers. If you or other people like large cities with very limited parking, "you" can move there. If the city is going to move forward, it has to accomodate the increased traffic; otherwise, businesses will expand in the suburbs and bypass the city. The big picture is you need more parking for the increased traffic.

there is plenty of parking, even on event days. just because you dont like to plan ahead and leave a bit earlier in the event that your favorite garage is already full doesn't mean we need to sprout garages on every block.

and thanks for the advice, i did move here.

[Spartan]

Can you find parking in the Opera House Garage 15 minutes before the annual fireworks show? Yes or no? Whatever answer you give is going to show your ignorance of downtown.

You know it's not yes.

You probably can't even GET to the Opera House Garage 15 minutes before the fireworks. Pretty much all the streets downtown close around 6. It's pretty ridiculous that you would make an argument that there should be readily available parking within 10 blocks of the most attended event in the city. People simply park earlier and farther away for events like that, it's not that complicated.

[gumby]

If you only show up 15 minutes before one of the most attended events and expect to easily slip into a spot close to the acton, you are an idiot. Your arguement has become more and more ridiculous. I have a hard time believing you are being serious.

[Detroitdave]

Yes, the People Mover is an eyesore, and earsore, and should be underground.

That said, I would definitely stay at the Wurlitzer on trips back home...IF I didn't have to hear the PM whizzing by my window at all hours. For that racket, I could stay at Uncle Vito's and hear his foghorn snore all night, and for zero money, too.

uhhh , the people mover rides right in front of the David Whitney Aloft hotel , I've stayed there and never heard a whisper of the PM, so I don't think this will be a problem.

[Mackinaw]

I'll never let it go because the parking issue is a serious matter that needs to be addressed.

LOLOL. Davewindsor, please don't ever, ever give up on your dream of unlimited subsidized parking for Detroit. The government must ensure that future generations will never need to walk outside to access their vehicle on a potential day when all three Detroit sports teams, plus the new MLS team, the future Detroit-based Pistons, every concert venue, every theater venue, and every festival is in action, and every hotel full, and our population density rivals the unbearable Manhattan... nor should those future Detroit-visitors ever have to pay a reasonable market rate that accounts for scarcity [[lol). It's your car. It's your life. It's your G**-given right, gosh darnit!

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

Can you find parking in the Opera House Garage 15 minutes before the annual fireworks show? Yes or no? Whatever answer you give is going to show your ignorance of downtown.

You know it's not yes.

That line of thinking is like saying you buy your groceries every Wednesday and park with easy at the grocery store, then BAM the day before Thanksgiving the lot is full. Conclusion? There is obviously a serious lack of parking! Or thinking that a shopping mall has inadequate parking due to a jammed lot the weekend before Christmas. One does not build capacity to accommodate the most extreme surges in demand. We are talking parking, not the power grid.

[MSUguy]

I think I represent the majority of drivers. If you or other people like large cities with very limited parking, "you" can move there. If the city is going to move forward, it has to accomodate the increased traffic; otherwise, businesses will expand in the suburbs and bypass the city. The big picture is you need more parking for the increased traffic.

You think the majority of drivers feel entitled enough to waltz into a spot as close as the Opera House 15 minutes before one of the city's biggest events? Additional parking will be added downtown grows, but if you think the above is how you're ever going to be accommodated in a major city you're delusional.

[drjeff]

I have parked downtown with no problem when both the fireworks and a Tigers game were occurring. Or when there are events at both Comerica Park and Ford Field. IN those cases they tend to jack up the rate, so I might have to pay $20 instead of the usual $10. But it's still laughably easy to park. The only day I normally have trouble is opening day, and even then I can find a spot somewhere after a bit of hunting for under $20.There are so many available spaces in downtown that it would take some ridiculous number of events to fill them all simultaneously.

[davewindsor]

That line of thinking is like saying you buy your groceries every Wednesday and park with easy at the grocery store, then BAM the day before Thanksgiving the lot is full. Conclusion? There is obviously a serious lack of parking! Or thinking that a shopping mall has inadequate parking due to a jammed lot the weekend before Christmas. One does not build capacity to accommodate the most extreme surges in demand. We are talking parking, not the power grid.

What?! That's irrelevant. Your analogy doesn't make any sense. First, you talk about a grocery store that has its own parking lot. Then, you also mention a shopping center that has its own parking lot. I am talking about the problems with allowing new hotels like this one that has NO parking lot of their own whatsoever. Stay on topic.