Wurlitzer Building to be saved, turned into boutique hotel

[dtowncitylover]

I have neither the need nor desire to visit overcrowded cities like Manhattan. Why should I "get out and see the world" when everything I'm satisfied with seeing can be conveniently reached by car in this area?

And that's all we needed to hear to now completely ignore anything you have to say on the matter from now on.

Never thought I'd see the day when Windsor is all someone needed to live life.

[ABetterDetroit]

I have neither the need nor desire to visit overcrowded cities like Manhattan. Why should I "get out and see the world" when everything I'm satisfied with seeing can be conveniently reached by car in this area?

Thats fine, then pick your hotel with the parking option you want nothing wrong with that, we all pick what we as individuals like.

But to make statements that all new developments need to be built the way you would want them is just ignorant. We all are not you.

[Mackinaw]

What are you even doing here Davewindsor? You are our smug Canadian version of Bham. I honestly don't get it, and don't follow your line of reasoning here at all. Why is it such a moral imperative that a new hotel build new parking in a downtown full of parking? Why is this such a crisis? You are being a weirdo.

[Insert additional safety/crime/Windsor's better comments here...oh, and 'get off my lawn!']

[MSUguy]

Or perhaps the city should plan their zoning by-laws accordingly like other cities. With the crimes rates the way they are in Detroit, I don't think public transportation is safe [[let alone reliable to any normal standard) in this city. How do you like them apples??

Like what other cities? Southfield. What you want may be appropriate some from sprawl-burb it's hardly right for the downtown of a major city.

[davewindsor]

Thats fine, then pick your hotel with the parking option you want nothing wrong with that, we all pick what we as individuals like.

But to make statements that all new developments need to be built the way you would want them is just ignorant. We all are not you.

I'm the opposite of ignorance. What's ignorant is not forseeing a parking problem when they allow new hotels to be added to downtown without parking. Proper city planning and zoning by-laws address this issue.

[Mackinaw]

Dude, wouldn't the hoteliers be the first to worry about a parking problem? They know the likely parking demand of their guests better than anyone, and have surely studied the market. They also probably know or will soon know what their desired arrangement with a nearby garage will be. You don't trust the people with a vested interest to ensure that they don't suffer a parking problem? And in a car-heavy city like Detroit? Please. This is a fake issue.

And if you are honestly worried about insufficient all-around parking in Detroit, and the apparent strain a new small hotel might put on the system, you're all kind of nuts/paranoid. Bedrock just built one of the city's largest garages two blocks from here. Half the CBD is surface lots offering fairly cheap parking even for events, and most of those lots are big enough for a new garage or even a NYC-style crane system to be built. If I am the City government, when it comes to parking issues, I'm on autopilot-- these issues will continue to resolve themself. As it is, I can normally find free/cheap street parking on an event night downtown if I ever have occasion to park a vehicle. Of course, I'm also fairly well grounded in reality and have no concerns about walking.

[southen]

I have neither the need nor desire to visit overcrowded cities like Manhattan. Why should I "get out and see the world" when everything I'm satisfied with seeing can be conveniently reached by car in this area?

it is called perspective bud. you have none. id also bet quite a bit of money that this place wont be catering to the windsorite who demands parking and has never left the metro... feel free to write a strongly worded letter though.

[davewindsor]

Dude, wouldn't the hoteliers be the first to worry about a parking problem? They know the likely parking demand of their guests better than anyone, and have surely studied the market. They also probably know or will soon know what their desired arrangement with a nearby garage will be. You don't trust the people with a vested interest to ensure that they don't suffer a parking problem? And in a car-heavy city like Detroit? Please. This is a fake issue.

It's not a fake issue and yes, I don't trust them because parking garages have always been money losers and have to be subsidized by the business owner or taxpayer.

And if you are honestly worried about insufficient all-around parking in Detroit, and the apparent strain a new small hotel might put on the system, you're all kind of nuts/paranoid.

All kinda nuts as opposed to being a tree-hugging, carbon hating, we don't have to worry about the car issue because we should all stop driving cars so we don't have parking problems fanatic, right? You know what, why don't we move all the major events out into suburbs like Auburn Hills? Problem solved. OK??

Bedrock just built one of the city's largest garages two blocks from here.

And why do you think they built it? Bedrock is also one of the largest landlords in downtown and requires them to rent out their units because of all the properties they bought with insufficient parking. They are doing what this hotel should be doing and is not. If they could pass the cost of building parking garages off to the taxpayer like Illitch, they probably would.

Half the CBD is surface lots offering fairly cheap parking even for events, and most of those lots are big enough for a new garage or even a NYC-style crane system to be built.

The cheap surface lots are cheap because they are heavily subsidized by either the owner, a nearby business, or the taxpayer. When you factor in repaving for a drainage system, asphalt and security plus the lost opportunity cost on your money for the property that could be invested into something else, it's not profitable. A parking garage is even less profitable, so why would it be built on it's own unless it was subsidized by a business? That's why something like a new hotel needs to have mandated parking spots under the zoning by-law to deal with this future demand issue. The Book-Cadillac built their own parking garage to deal with their future demand issue. This hotel should be mandated to do so too.

If I am the City government, when it comes to parking issues, I'm on autopilot-- these issues will continue to resolve themself. As it is, I can normally find free/cheap street parking on an event night downtown if I ever have occasion to park a vehicle. Of course, I'm also fairly well grounded in reality and have no concerns about walking.

No, they don't resolve themselves. Just look at the mess in Manhattan. This is not a future solution to a current issue because you're talking about current demand, not future demand for parking spots. As more hotels open up in downtown without parking, there will be a greater demand for parking spots. Spots for events, activities and retail shouldn't be hoarded by new hotels. A zoning by-law addresses that issue.

[davewindsor]

it is called perspective bud. you have none.

No, you have none. You say tom-at-o, I say tom-ate-o

[Mackinaw]

How would you know about Manhattan?-- you don't go there! I wake up in NYC most mornings, and frankly the last thing anyone is worried about is parking garages. They are expensive, but they are only used by rich people or corporate accounts. Regular people don't drive to the city on a daily basis requiring parking, if ever at all. Silly comparison on so many levels.

You know a lot about parking development, or at least it would appear that way. Do you have experiential expertise in the field? And if so, in Detroit? Or are you speculating to create an oppositional, devil's advocate response to everyone else's comments which are based on common sense, regular experiences downtown [[i.e. parking for cheap with ease, or simply observing the parking-replete landscape of downtown Detroit?)

[Junjie]

Here's a picture of the current parking situation I made back when the Z lot was being built [[teal). Orange are multi-level structures, red is surface lots. I might have missed a few cleverly-disguised garages.



Just for reference. It's hard to imagine a city with more parking than Detroit that one could still call a city.

Anyway regardless of the parking situation, really great news about the Wurlitzer. Hope it comes off without a hitch.

[davewindsor]

How would you know about Manhattan?-- you don't go there! I wake up in NYC most mornings, and frankly the last thing anyone is worried about is parking garages. They are expensive, but they are only used by rich people or corporate accounts. Regular people don't drive to the city on a daily basis requiring parking, if ever at all. Silly comparison on so many levels.

Do you have a car and a spot in a parking garage in Manhattan? The way you mention regular people that don't drive sounds like you don't. Then, obviously you don't understand the situation of drivers, so your rebuttal sounds silly.

You know a lot about parking development, or at least it would appear that way. Do you have experiential expertise in the field? And if so, in Detroit? Or are you speculating to create an oppositional, devil's advocate response to everyone else's comments which are based on common sense, regular experiences downtown [[i.e. parking for cheap with ease, or simply observing the parking-replete landscape of downtown Detroit?)

Why should I qualify myself to you? Most normal people in metro have cars and should understand what I'm talking about. It should be common sense. Automobiles are a way of life in this area; it's a big part of this area's history as the Motor City. When you add more hotels to downtown without parking, there will be less spots available for the larger volume of traffic. The city zoning department needs to plan ahead for this increase by putting the burden of providing these spots on the new hotels. I don't understand why you don't get this??

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

I'm the opposite of ignorance. What's ignorant is not forseeing a parking problem when they allow new hotels to be added to downtown without parking. Proper city planning and zoning by-laws address this issue.

I think that you are forseeing a problem that is so far down the road there is no point in even raising it at this time. When the remaining vacant buildings are all occupied AND a large of percentage of the surface lots have construction on them, then the equation might change. That point is not imminent.

[davewindsor]

Just for reference. It's hard to imagine a city with more parking than Detroit that one could still call a city.

How many parking spots are there in downtown and how many people show up in downtown to a major event like, say, the Woodward dream cruise?

[davewindsor]

I think that you are forseeing a problem that is so far down the road there is no point in even raising it at this time. When the remaining vacant buildings are all occupied AND a large of percentage of the surface lots have construction on them, then the equation might change. That point is not imminent.

It's poor planning and it's not that far down the road. Hotels are being opened. New condo high rises are apparently being set for construction. Why would the Book Cadillac and Gilbert have built parking garages if parking was never a problem? As more buildings are occupied or constructed, there will be a bigger strain on the parking resources. This makes it fair for all the landlords in downtown.

[gumby]

How many parking spots are there in downtown and how many people show up in downtown to a major event like, say, the Woodward dream cruise?

Umm. The Dream Cruise doesn't come to Detroit, let alone downtown.

[davewindsor]

Umm. The Dream Cruise doesn't come to Detroit, let alone downtown.

I meant to say another major event like the Detroit Annual Fireworks. How many showed up for the Detroit Annual Fireworks? Nonetheless, there's plenty of major events that would strain downtown parking as it is.

[animatedmartian]

It's poor planning and it's not that far down the road. Hotels are being opened. New condo high rises are apparently being set for construction. Why would the Book Cadillac and Gilbert have built parking garages if parking was never a problem? As more buildings are occupied or constructed, there will be a bigger strain on the parking resources. This makes it fair for all the landlords in downtown.

Parking will be built when it's needed. Most condos are actually built with private parking unlike hotels. In fact, Book Cadillac's parking garage is mostly public with just a few levels reserved for valet parking. When the apartments on top of the garage get built, then likely most of the garage would be used by the residents. Need more parking for other developments? Then another garage will be built somewhere. This is literally something that doesn't require any thought.

[davewindsor]

Parking will be built when it's needed. Most condos are actually built with private parking unlike hotels. In fact, Book Cadillac's parking garage is mostly public with just a few levels reserved for valet parking. When the apartments on top of the garage get built, then likely most of the garage would be used by the residents. Need more parking for other developments? Then another garage will be built somewhere. This is literally something that doesn't require any thought.

Are you trying to tell me parking garages make a good return on their owner's investment?? Seriously??

[animatedmartian]

Here's a picture of the current parking situation I made back when the Z lot was being built [[teal). Orange are multi-level structures, red is surface lots. I might have missed a few cleverly-disguised garages.

The BCBS parking garage is the one with the green roof next to the freeway. There's also one attached to the shorter level building next to the PM station. There's also 3 other parking garages you missed.

Not to mention, there's at least several underground parking garages around downtown, most of them underneath buildings, though I'm not sure how many of them are public. Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a 1:1 ratio of people to cars within downtown at any given moment. So if there's 40-something thousand workers downtown, there's probably 40,000 parked car and at least 40,000 parking spaces.

Campus Martius Park's website puts the number at 10,000 parking spaces, but I'm sure that's only including adjacent blocks. All of downtown Detroit probably has a hefty number.

[animatedmartian]

Are you trying to tell me parking garages make a good return on their owner's investment?? Seriously??

I'm pretty sure another poster even said to you that parking garages generate revenue for their owners. They don't really cost much to operate and as long as there's land to build on and demand for parking, they'll generate revenue.

Of course, they still abide by the rules of supply and demand and if every building had their own parking garages, no one would be getting any revenue because there would be an oversupply of parking. That's why places like MGM Grand or Motor City Casino have free parking; they have so much parking but only use probably less than half of it. It wouldn't be profitable to charge rates.

[Junjie]

Most normal people in metro have cars and should understand what I'm talking about. It should be common sense. Automobiles are a way of life in this area; it's a big part of this area's history as the Motor City. When you add more hotels to downtown without parking, there will be less spots available for the larger volume of traffic. The city zoning department needs to plan ahead for this increase by putting the burden of providing these spots on the new hotels. I don't understand why you don't get this??

What you're running into is a geometric problem, not a policy problem. You're absolutely right that adding more hotels means fewer spots for a larger volume of people. But that's why building/operating good transit will only become more critical if Detroit continues to rebound. There is simply not enough space for each person to drive and park a car at the densities of a major, healthy downtown business district. It's fine to say that Detroit is the Motor City, but it's still a city, and cities operate under certain geometric facts. One of those is that cars take up too much space for a high density downtown business district to rely solely on them.

Right now Detroit can get away with this because it has a relatively unoccupied CBD relative to successful cities. But if redevelopment continues, this will become less and less feasible. Density and automobile reliance are diametrically opposed in a zero-sum game. You cannot have both. Requiring every new or renovated building in downtown Detroit to build additional parking is not physically workable over the long term, and attempting to do so will hold back the city's redevelopment. Parking is going to get scarcer if Detroit does well, and that's a good and manageable problem to have. It means people want to be in your city and businesses want to locate there. The long-term solution is to build transit so that tens of thousands of people from Oakland County or other parts of the city can take the train and leave Dave from Windsor a parking spot.

[ABetterDetroit]

Sorry that I'm not a fan of riding a Shinola bike from the suburbs to downtown like you. I cherish my own personal safety by riding around inside a 4,600 lbs safety box. I don't car pool. I use my own private car during major events. I've seen a lot of others do it too. Downtown does have a lot of major events and I've seen traffic lined up for blocks to get parking during major events plus parking gets quite expensive during major events [[in some lots as high as 50 bucks a day because there isn't enough parking). I've also been stuck on the highway for half an hour to get on the offramp exit to downtown during a major event. This is called the motor city because it was supposed to be built for cars. I don't personally know anyone out of town that visits downtown with anything other than a car.

There is a need for more parking in downtown and hotels in downtown should have their own parking garages. Period.

Oh, I get it now, I must have missed this one earlier. You are already VERY challenged by the parking situation now. I have always wondered who sits in those lines at the ramps. I always figured it was kids that had just learned to drive or newbies that feel comfortable sticking to their GPS routes but now I know another group.

What you don't see, that a bunch of us who do travel see and are not afraid of a "crowded Manhattan" or any other large city, is that Detroit is laughably easy to park in. I mean really easy. I do all the events and can think of 2 off the top of my head last year with both Ford Field and Comerica Park sold out. It just was not hard at all, it never is. Of course I know my way around and am not going to cough up $50 when there are a hundred lots charging $20 or less. But hey, that's capitalism. As P.T. Barnum said "ones born every minute" and someone is going to pay just because they don't know what they're doing. But you can't really expect the city to fix stupid people who don't know how to park. They already have plenty of their own stupid to work on.

[KJ5]

Why did y'all have to go and get into a pissing match with DaveWindsor? Once he starts streaming bloody murder about something he never stops...

[davewindsor]

I'm pretty sure another poster even said to you that parking garages generate revenue for their owners. They don't really cost much to operate and as long as there's land to build on and demand for parking, they'll generate revenue.

Of course, they still abide by the rules of supply and demand and if every building had their own parking garages, no one would be getting any revenue because there would be an oversupply of parking. That's why places like MGM Grand or Motor City Casino have free parking; they have so much parking but only use probably less than half of it. It wouldn't be profitable to charge rates.

So you think parking garages generate revenue for their owners? Let's examine this point. It costs on average $59 a square foot to build a parking garage. http://www.fixr.com/costs/build-parking-garage So, let's say you need about 700 square feet for each parking space [[the space, plus access to move into the spot, roads inside the garage, ramp, etc.). So, a 100 parking spots x 700 square feet x $59 is $4.13m. So if a vacant parcel of land for a garage bought from a gouging land speculator is $2m, that comes to $6.13m. Let's say operating costs [[insurance, lighted ceilings, etc.), security surveillance, maintenance, taxes is $100K a year. So, if an investor was looking at a 10% return on their investment, this garage would have to generate $713K a year to generate a decent return for the owner. That's $7,130 a year per spot or around $600 a month [[assuming it's full), which is about $475 more per month than the Compuware garage charges.

What's the break even point? Well if a commercial mortgage for a garage in Detroit is 8%, you would need $590K a year or around $490 a month per spot just to break even on your mortgage payments and expenses [[assuming it's full).

So please explain to me how a garage makes money for its owners as a standalone business? It has to be subsidized by a neighboring business [[ex. the compuware building subsidizing the compuware garage) or by taxpayers [[through grants, subsidies, etc.) because it's always a money loser.