What is going on at Red Wings arena site?

[emu steve]

I want to change the subject to hopefully a more critical question:

"IF Ilitch agrees [[or was 'forced') to keep both buildings does he need to have his architects, engineers, etc. re-do their work? "

Wouldn't that require a MAJOR design change regarding the loading dock, parking deck, etc.?

I assume that would take months and change the design concept. And, BTW, the loading dock isn't where it was last week. Now it opens into the visitor's lockerroom. Oops.

It isn't simple like politicians who will get a word processor and insert the word, "Not" into a single sentence and say the problem has been resolved.

[Dbest]

I want to change the subject to hopefully a more critical question:

"IF Ilitch agrees [[or was 'forced') to keep both buildings does he need to have his architects, engineers, etc. re-do their work? "

Wouldn't that require a MAJOR design change regarding the loading dock, parking deck, etc.?

I assume that would take months and change the design concept. And, BTW, the loading dock isn't where it was last week. Now it opens into the visitor's lockerroom. Oops.

It isn't simple like politicians who will get a word processor and insert the word, "Not" into a single sentence and say the problem has been resolved.

Is this a possibility?

I'd like to know if the Park has drawn any inquiries from developers recently?

[ghettopalmetto]

"IF Ilitch agrees [[or was 'forced') to keep both buildings does he need to have his architects, engineers, etc. re-do their work? "

Wouldn't that require a MAJOR design change regarding the loading dock, parking deck, etc.?

I assume that would take months and change the design concept.

That's not the City of Detroit's problem now, is it? Olympia owns what--45 city blocks of vacant lot? And the approach to the loading dock just *has* to be placed in the path of an existing building?

These are the same people who are going to create all sorts of additional development, right? Mmmhmmm. Keep believing that.

[Dan_the_man]

"IF Ilitch agrees [[or was 'forced') to keep both buildings does he need to have his architects, engineers, etc. re-do their work? "

Wouldn't that require a MAJOR design change regarding the loading dock, parking deck, etc.?

I assume that would take months and change the design concept. And, BTW, the loading dock isn't where it was last week. Now it opens into the visitor's lockerroom. Oops.

It isn't simple like politicians who will get a word processor and insert the word, "Not" into a single sentence and say the problem has been resolved.

Perhaps they should have thought about that before designing the arena to require the demolition of a historic and protected building. they knew there would be resistance, they just figured they could do what they have done many times in the past and find a way to demolish it anyways and they probably will. There is plenty of space on the site and they could have easily designed it in a way that doesn't require the hotel to be removed but they chose not to. I will personally take great joy if a decision is made that requires them to keep the hotel, costing them extra time and money in a redisign. Their arrogance is unbelievable, and they deserve to be knocked down a peg or five.

[emu steve]

That's not the City of Detroit's problem now, is it? Olympia owns what--45 city blocks of vacant lot? And the approach to the loading dock just *has* to be placed in the path of an existing building?

These are the same people who are going to create all sorts of additional development, right? Mmmhmmm. Keep believing that.

What makes URBAN sports facilities so difficult is the amount of contiguous acreage they require.

Do remember, that this development needs what 12 [[hope I got that number correct) acres and MUST be contiguous, must work aesthetically, must be owned by the city/Ilitch, etc.

Where would YOU put the loading dock? Woodward/Henry? [[heaven's NO!!!!).

How about north of the arena? Yikes, that wouldn't be nice.

They did EXACTLY what they should have done: They start at Woodward and frontage there and designed back with parking deck/loading dock in the least conspicuous location. At the back.

Last time I checked there were THREE available frontages: Woodward/Henry, Woodward/Sproat [[or Sproat/Park), and Park Ave [[between Henry/Sproat).

I assume the grand design is for traffic on southbound Cass to turn onto Sproat [[or maybe even change the streets where Clifford/Cass come together at Sproat) and let traffic turn into the parking deck from Cass.

Sorry GP, I think the design is a VERY GOOD design esp. since this is an urban area [[and not some open field dozens of miles from the downtown).

[Bham1982]

I have been very, very familiar with that area for the last 10+ years. I would not walk that area night or day.

The amount of new construction near the Navy Yard metro wasn't much.

Quite frankly, it was a new Metro Station which didn't produce much development because of how bad the area was.

Yeah, there was DOT [[Dept. of Transportation) by the Navy Yard subway station, etc. but all in all a very, very bad area.

That Nationals Stadium has absolutely nothing to do with development in DC. If anything, it's a hinderance to growth.

The buildings going up around Nationals Stadium are all federal buildings or for their contractors. You really believe that the Navy or the Treasury or HUD are adding employees and building buildings and housing contractors because a baseball team changed locations?

Federal procurement has zero to do with MLB, which should be fairly obvious.

[SpartanDawg]

https://twitter.com/MattHelms/status/590542177421361152


BREAKING: City council unanimously passes final zoning change required for full construction of the new arena

[stinkytofu]

https://twitter.com/MattHelms/status/590542177421361152


BREAKING: City council unanimously passes final zoning change required for full construction of the new arena

City council caved. Pathetic.

[bailey]

City council caved. Pathetic.

I'm sorry... what would ever give one any inkling the result would have been different?

[mikeg19]

City council caved. Pathetic.

Did they get the required language in the agreement stating Olympia must renovate the Eddystone? I sure as hell hope so.

[Zads07]

Did they get the required language in the agreement stating Olympia must renovate the Eddystone? I sure as hell hope so.

From the Free Press

"The Ilitches' Olympia Development of Michigan agreed with the city's request for stronger assurance that the developers will follow through on commitments to redevelop one of two historic hotels near the proposed 20,000-seat arena. The city's top lawyer, Melvin [[Butch) Hollowell, said Olympia agreed to be held to account to complete redevelopment of the Hotel Eddystone under court order, should the city's law department ever be forced to seek such a move."

http://www.freep.com/story/news/2015...rena/26120709/

[emu steve]

That Nationals Stadium has absolutely nothing to do with development in DC. If anything, it's a hinderance to growth.

The buildings going up around Nationals Stadium are all federal buildings or for their contractors. You really believe that the Navy or the Treasury or HUD are adding employees and building buildings and housing contractors because a baseball team changed locations?

Federal procurement has zero to do with MLB, which should be fairly obvious.

Disagree 100%. Tons of housing and office buildings are going up.

Navy Yard has been there a long time and no development.

Green line [[subway) came there in 1991 [[at Navy Yard, other stops to be completed later) still not much development except I guess DOT.

DOT moved there and still not much development.

What this shows: A subway line, Green Line, in D.C. area will not have much of an effect in a desolate area. I can give other examples, e.g., Green Line in Suitland, which has been a very, very rough area for many decades [[I worked at the Census Bureau many years ago. Employees did not go out for lunch. They stayed in the cafeteria. That area is no better today then when I worked there.

A single big headquarters building still not enough to transform an area. [[Buzzard Point as D.C. folks know was an incredibly stupid idea: Think ONE office building would lead to transformation).

Nationals Park was transformative because it lead to a mad rush to acquire buildable land.

P.S. Treasury? HUD is in S.W. maybe two or three miles from the Navy Yard and has been for decades. I'll check what else is around Nationals Park on M. Street S.E.

[MSUguy]

This doesn't sound like a cave to me, it sounds pretty goddamn airtight

From the Free Press

"The Ilitches' Olympia Development of Michigan agreed with the city's request for stronger assurance that the developers will follow through on commitments to redevelop one of two historic hotels near the proposed 20,000-seat arena. The city's top lawyer, Melvin [[Butch) Hollowell, said Olympia agreed to be held to account to complete redevelopment of the Hotel Eddystone under court order, should the city's law department ever be forced to seek such a move."

http://www.freep.com/story/news/2015...rena/26120709/

[stinkytofu]

This doesn't sound like a cave to me, it sounds pretty goddamn airtight

OK I'm an idiot. I saw another tweet just saying they passed it...didn't realize there was the change.

Still severely disappointed so much history is being demolished on this project.

[dmike76]

While I'm sad that the Park Ave. isn't going to be saved, I will say that I think the City Council did a good job with due diligence and holding Olympia to its word on the Eddystone. This is one of the moments that I will look back on years later and support them on what they did. I might be dreaming, but hopefully we'll see more of this type of diligence in the future.

[Bham1982]

Disagree 100%. Tons of housing and office buildings are going up.

None of which have anything to do with a baseball team. You might as well credit the expansion of federal office buildings to the local Jimmy Johns.

Office space users don't care about a baseball team. Federal procurement rules have nothing to do with sports teams. And a baseball stadium has never, ever, initiated a development boom, for obvious reasons. It's dead space 99% of the time and totally anti-urban.

There is no sports venue on earth that is as beneficial as even a run-of-the mill residential building. They're limited use special event facilities for outsiders, and they harm urbanity, which is why they're usually located away from urban districts.

[1953]

While I'm glad they saved the Eddystone, they did a pretty poor job of saving the Park.

Hopefully the HDC can block a demolition.

1953

[rjlj]

Common Council totally caved.

While I'm glad they saved the Eddystone, they did a pretty poor job of saving the Park.

Hopefully the HDC can block a demolition.

1953

[animatedmartian]

I want to change the subject to hopefully a more critical question:

"IF Ilitch agrees [[or was 'forced') to keep both buildings does he need to have his architects, engineers, etc. re-do their work? "

Wouldn't that require a MAJOR design change regarding the loading dock, parking deck, etc.?

I assume that would take months and change the design concept. And, BTW, the loading dock isn't where it was last week. Now it opens into the visitor's lockerroom. Oops.

It isn't simple like politicians who will get a word processor and insert the word, "Not" into a single sentence and say the problem has been resolved.

Short answer: Nope.

Olympia shows a floor plan of the arena with the loading dock underground leading to one of the parking decks fronting Cass. It's bypasses the foot print of Park Ave completely.

https://38.media.tumblr.com/370db3f4...8zjo2_1280.png

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/apps/pb...W=900&MaxH=900

Clearly, Park Avenue wasn't such a problem for the architects to design around in the first place. If these are current plans and haven't been changed since they were presented last year, then there's no clear need for the demolition of Park Ave. If these aren't current plans, then that means Ilitch would have had to deliberately re-design the loading docks in a way that forces the demolition of Park Ave. Though, that wouldn't make any sense as Sproat street is too narrow for that sort of truck traffic. Unless Ilitch plans on widening Sproat street. Which seems to require more work than if Park Ave was just left alone.

[mikeg19]

Here's a question: With the zoning issue cleared up, Olympia can begin construction on the site. But what if the Historical Commision deny's the demolition of the Park Avenue Hotel? Does that impact the construction of the stadium at all? Can the Historical Commission force Olympia to A) develop the hotel B) sell the hotel to an developer for restoration?

Bottom line: What are the hostorical commission's powers and can they block demolition at any cost?

[ghettopalmetto]

What makes URBAN sports facilities so difficult is the amount of contiguous acreage they require.

Do remember, that this development needs what 12 [[hope I got that number correct) acres and MUST be contiguous, must work aesthetically, must be owned by the city/Ilitch, etc.

Surely you don't mean to say that 45 city blocks of empty surface lots is insufficient acreage for an "urban" arena? Because that would mean you're deliberately ridiculous.

By comparison, Verizon Center in DC [[which, by the way, has a loading dock) takes up four city blocks, and when it was built, had a hell of a lot more buildings [[and a large subway station) adjacent to its site than Ilitch's Hockey Mall.

[emu steve]

Surely you don't mean to say that 45 city blocks of empty surface lots is insufficient acreage for an "urban" arena? Because that would mean you're deliberately ridiculous.

By comparison, Verizon Center in DC [[which, by the way, has a loading dock) takes up four city blocks, and when it was built, had a hell of a lot more buildings [[and a large subway station) adjacent to its site than Ilitch's Hockey Mall.

Straw man, Straw man, Straw man...

Of course it doesn't take 45 acres. And the visitors' locker room isn't going to behind the Fox and the loading dock at Henry and the Fisher and the ticket windows maybe near CoPa. [[I'm being sarcastic here).

The most important acreage are the 12 acres nearest to the arena.

Some of the other acreage have little value.

Verizon Center wasn't designed to be transformative [[although it turned out to be).

The arena project is designed to usher in Midtown 2.0 [[south of MLKjr/Mack) It is designed to be transformative for areas within say 1/2 mile of the arena. Ripple effects like dropping a big stone in water... Extends its effects toward CoPa and Grand Circus Park; West of Cass beyond Cass Park; some north of the arena, west of Woodward; and also east of Woodward in Brush Park.

Saving the two hotels and not doing the arena: Midtown 1.01

You decide what you want: Midtown 2.0 or Midtown 1.01

[gumby]

The arena project is designed to usher in Midtown 2.0 [[south of MLKjr/Mack) It is designed to be transformative for areas within say 1/2 mile of the arena. Ripple effects like dropping a big stone in water... Extends its effects toward CoPa and Grand Circus Park; West of Cass beyond Cass Park; some north of the arena, west of Woodward; and also east of Woodward in Brush Park.

Saving the two hotels and not doing the arena: Midtown 1.01

You decide what you want: Midtown 2.0 or Midtown 1.01

There is no reason they can't build the arena and save the hotels. It isn't all or nothing. I call BS on their argument that it is too close to the arena.

[ghettopalmetto]

Straw man, Straw man, Straw man...

Of course it doesn't take 45 acres. And the visitors' locker room isn't going to behind the Fox and the loading dock at Henry and the Fisher and the ticket windows maybe near CoPa. [[I'm being sarcastic here).

The most important acreage are the 12 acres nearest to the arena.

Some of the other acreage have little value.

Verizon Center wasn't designed to be transformative [[although it turned out to be).

The arena project is designed to usher in Midtown 2.0 [[south of MLKjr/Mack) It is designed to be transformative for areas within say 1/2 mile of the arena. Ripple effects like dropping a big stone in water... Extends its effects toward CoPa and Grand Circus Park; West of Cass beyond Cass Park; some north of the arena, west of Woodward; and also east of Woodward in Brush Park.

Saving the two hotels and not doing the arena: Midtown 1.01

You decide what you want: Midtown 2.0 or Midtown 1.01

So are you the marketing chief for Olympia Entertainment? Or are you just blowing smoke up our asses? Because nobody--and I mean NOBODY--who has ever designed a building would resort to the unsubstantiated, candy-coated sunshine-and-puppy-dogs language that you're using here. You're taking vaguely-defined concepts, and fine-tuning them with reckless abandon to make yourself look smart. You're not, at least not the realm of building design.

Some people who post here make their livings doing the things you only profess to know about. Jus sayin.

Even if it were possible to "design" a project to "transform" property within a 1/2-mile radius [[How does one do that, exactly? Do the project specifications call for New, Added Transformative Power?), then $600 million+ is a patent rip-off price. So which one is correct?

Maybe Olympia could TRANSFORM some of their dilapidated slums into inhabited, taxpaying properties before they TRANSFORM anything else into another one of their shit-tastic gravel lots.

[alfbundy]

https://38.media.tumblr.com/370db3f4...8zjo2_1280.png

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/apps/pb...W=900&MaxH=900

Clearly, Park Avenue wasn't such a problem for the architects to design around in the first place. If these are current plans and haven't been changed since they were presented last year, then there's no clear need for the demolition of Park Ave. If these aren't current plans, then that means Ilitch would have had to deliberately re-design the loading docks in a way that forces the demolition of Park Ave. Though, that wouldn't make any sense as Sproat street is too narrow for that sort of truck traffic. Unless Ilitch plans on widening Sproat street. Which seems to require more work than if Park Ave was just left alone.

The plan was changed with the approval of city council. Councilwoman Lopez [[arena is in her district) wanted an increase in public space [[which is what's happening with the area being made into green space and bike racks) plus some terms for secure biking on Cass, razing Park Avenue helped in that regard. You also have to remember that parking was a big issue and keeping Park Ave. would have created a need for even more parking decks etc.