What is going on at Red Wings arena site?

[emu steve]

Yes, this is a very intelligently designed large project. It, wisely, takes all of the other sports and entertainment venues and connects [[to) them. It integrates housing, retail, office, etc. as part of a 'master plan' to build out from downtown and connect more fully with Midtown.

I have mentioned on the Brewster / Wheeler project that we are seeing some real 'green shoots' for housing east of Woodward. There are at least two announced significant housing developments and the rumored hotel [[near Ford Field).

As such, all of what Ilitch is doing makes PERFECT sense as to what that area north of Fisher [[West of Woodward) needs:

Something very, very large. It literally defines that area as entertainment/commercial and leaves the East of Woodward as residential.

How this is 'smart' development and even the successful Verizon Center and Nationals Park, were not.

Verizon Center used to be a parking lot and haven for drug dealers. Up go the Verizon Center and is spurs development.

Nationals Park area was worse. Out of sight, out of mind strip clubs, chop shops, light industrial etc. All of a sudden market forces seeing the blight removed [[for the stadium) and they buy up property like crazy and start building housing and commercial office space.

Where the arena project is SMART DEVELOPMENT is that it isn't willy nilly [[sp) development. All of the pieces integrate into what is already existing south of the Fisher and what is to be near the arena.

[emu steve]

Dan speaks via action.

Ilitch speaks via promises. Simply put, we don't trust him. He says he's going to do something, we ask him to put it into writing, and he refuses.

Once again, folks here are arguing of the tail [[those two abandoned hotels), not the dog.

Does anyone think Ilitch will not build the arena? parking deck? The ancillary building e.g., team shop and offices, a few smallish residential buildings, etc.

To folks on this forum, touching that abandoned hotel[[s) may be a sin against God and nature, but it is small potatoes in the very, very large project.

[Mackinaw]

If it's such small f'ing potatoes, why doesn't Olympia drop its asinine case and build around them? Seems like a lot of benefit to our urbanism can be derived from the simple act of not demolishing, relinquishing Olympia control, and allowing a new developer onto the scene.

But no-- Olympia doesn't relinquish control. Every square inch of the "district" is supposed to put money in their pockets. Forget the public at its majority stakehold in this project's core element.

[ghettopalmetto]

Nationals Park area was worse. Out of sight, out of mind strip clubs, chop shops, light industrial etc. All of a sudden market forces seeing the blight removed [[for the stadium) and they buy up property like crazy and start building housing and commercial office space.

Where the arena project is SMART DEVELOPMENT is that it isn't willy nilly [[sp) development. All of the pieces integrate into what is already existing south of the Fisher and what is to be near the arena.

The Southwest and Near Southeast areas of DC already had housing and office construction underway while the Nationals were still playing in Montreal. But you can keep on believing whatever you want.

You want to see a couple new restaurants and a couple new bars open? Give me $200 million with no strings, and I'll build you a God damn restaurant and a bar.

[emu steve]

The Southwest and Near Southeast areas of DC already had housing and office construction underway while the Nationals were still playing in Montreal. But you can keep on believing whatever you want.

You want to see a couple new restaurants and a couple new bars open? Give me $200 million with no strings, and I'll build you a God damn restaurant and a bar.

I have been very, very familiar with that area for the last 10+ years. I would not walk that area night or day.

The amount of new construction near the Navy Yard metro wasn't much.

Quite frankly, it was a new Metro Station which didn't produce much development because of how bad the area was.

Yeah, there was DOT [[Dept. of Transportation) by the Navy Yard subway station, etc. but all in all a very, very bad area.

[emu steve]

The Southwest and Near Southeast areas of DC already had housing and office construction underway while the Nationals were still playing in Montreal. But you can keep on believing whatever you want.

You want to see a couple new restaurants and a couple new bars open? Give me $200 million with no strings, and I'll build you a God damn restaurant and a bar.

Totally, totally, totally baloney and misses the mark.

The Ilitch family IS heavily invested in that area and want to see it grow as much as financially feasible.

It is in their BEST interest to see things develop near Comerica, near the Fox, West of the proposed arena out toward their Casino.

The Ilitches are NOT just the owners of the Red Wings, new arena, and associated parking garages.

If my commercial-spatial skills are right, one can draw a straight line from the Motor City Casino to Comerica Park and that is the area where the Ilitches want to see commercial, residential, etc. development happen.

And it makes sense, they own a baseball stadium, parking garages, theater, headquarters building, big eatery [[Hockeytown), new arena, casino.

They own undeveloped real estate [[parking lots) behind the Fox.

They are heavily invested to see that entire area grow and flourish, be it near the arena, behind the Fox, West of Cass toward their casino.

Think big picture...

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

Totally, totally, totally baloney and misses the mark.

The Ilitch family IS heavily invested in that area and want to see it grow as much as financially feasible.

It is in their BEST interest to see things develop near Comerica, near the Fox, West of the proposed arena out toward their Casino.

The Ilitches are NOT just the owners of the Red Wings, new arena, and associated parking garages.

If my commercial-spatial skills are right, one can draw a straight line from the Motor City Casino to Comerica Park and that is the area where the Ilitches want to see commercial, residential, etc. development happen.

And it makes sense, they own a baseball stadium, parking garages, theater, headquarters building, big eatery [[Hockeytown), new arena, casino.

They own undeveloped real estate [[parking lots) behind the Fox.

They are heavily invested to see that entire area grow and flourish, be it near the arena, behind the Fox, West of Cass toward their casino.

Think big picture...

Perhaps Olympia should "think big picture" and just obligate themselves to restore the Eddystone. Then they could get the ball rolling.

[bailey]

Perhaps Olympia should "think big picture" and just obligate themselves to restore the Eddystone. Then they could get the ball rolling.

Exactly... But they know they'll get the tear down authority so they're just going to wait it out. The "big picture" has nothing to do with completing the "district"...ever. The only thing anyone at olympia cares about is getting that stadium up and the attendant parking decks built and earning as soon as possible.

[emu steve]

Exactly... But they know they'll get the tear down authority so they're just going to wait it out. The "big picture" has nothing to do with completing the "district"...ever. The only thing anyone at olympia cares about is getting that stadium up and the attendant parking decks built and earning as soon as possible.

I think the FREEP article suggests why now [[go through the Historic District Commission):

"On the table at Monday's council meeting was a requirement in the rezoning package that Olympia's redevelopment plans for the Eddystone be approved by the Detroit Historic District Commission before a demolition permit for the Park Avenue is granted. The commission's approval theoretically would show Olympia's plans for the Eddystone are concrete.
But Olympia said getting such an approval could take weeks, if not months, delaying the timetable for the arena's construction. The developer prefers the language be watered down so that the only prerequisite for a demolition permit is that an application be submitted to the Historic District Commission for the Eddystone renovations.
Olympia can be trusted to follow through on the Eddystone renovations, consultant John Graves told the council. Requiring the Historic District Commission's approval could delay the construction timeline, he said. "

My guess: Is that the Park Avenue will fall before anything 'goes up.'

It doesn't make any sense to me not to demolish everything and do complete site prep before anything 'goes up.'

I just don't believe contractors say, '"hey, we'll demolish the Park Ave in September after the commission has spent months deliberating [[with all that it entails)..."

Lest I be wrong, part of the parking deck, etc. is below grade and physically connected to the arena.

I assume all excavation would be done at once... [[regardless of when the deck 'goes up').

Who wants to be putting steel in the ground nearby while another building is yet to be demolished?

[ghettopalmetto]

Totally, totally, totally baloney and misses the mark.

The Ilitch family IS heavily invested in that area and want to see it grow as much as financially feasible.

It is in their BEST interest to see things develop near Comerica, near the Fox, West of the proposed arena out toward their Casino.

The Ilitches are NOT just the owners of the Red Wings, new arena, and associated parking garages.

If this is the case, then why are there still surface parking lots adjacent to Comerica Park?

Olympia is not a real estate developer. This much is obvious to anyone who has ever seen one of their many dilapidated buildings or moonscaped lots. Olympia's business is to get people to come to the Tigers/Red Wings/Fox Theatre/Motor City Casino, dump cash, and leave. No more, no less.

Let's not be so quick to award undeserved credit when the party in question has no track record of doing anything close to what you describe.

[emu steve]

I frequently mention the problems getting Nationals Park approved, including through the D.C. council and eminent domain, as why I hate to see the haggling over these development agreements. Stadium, arena, etc. have real deadlines [[usually the start of the sport season which will they are built for. Very different then say building a shopping mall).

Well surprise [[actually not) D.C. is having problems getting going with a new soccer stadium near Nationals Park.

And it looks like after D.C. council rebuffed a property exchange agreement for a straight out purchase of the necessary land, there seems to be problems getting part of the site purchased.

And the words 'eminent domain' are in the article. And a September 30 deadline.

Ah, yes, the problem building anything big when there are issues with property or zoning or cleanup or whatever...

http://www.bizjournals.com/washingto...under-d-c.html

[mickeyg]

Surprisingly, if one gets off this forum and into the 'real world' [[this forum is NOT a true representation of the Metro Detroit area. It is a very skewed 'sample', heavily weighted toward certain interests, e.g., historic preservation.), one will find very, very different opinions.

Just talk to the business and political leaders. As best I can tell, this arena has the wholehearted support of the most influential business leaders and politicians [[e.g., the mayor, the governor, etc.).

Don't forget the Unions[[they still hold a lot of power in this state) who will be benefit from the construction jobs.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...elay/25776657/

In the latest Freep poll 77% blamed council, voting for "They're standing in the way of progress". So the majority of people support this project. The only ones left against it are the preservationists and some politicians who are using this situation to gain political points with their supporters [[saying stuff like the money should be used for schools, roads etc). They know full well that it can only go for this type of development. I suspect many still don't understand how public bonds sales work. The state of Michigan is paying nothing. One of its economic development entities is selling bonds, and investors will buy them. That generates the $450 million. That is not tax money, and the bonds themselves [[Series A and B) are backed solely by dedicated revenue streams [[the ODM revenue pledge and the special DDA property tax on downtown properties which is coming from GM and other corporations). None of the money is coming from the general fund.

[mickeyg]

Illitch can up and move the team to the Palace. It can't be any worse than Joe Louis. I can't believe one building is going to hold this project up. Nobody else is going to develop that building any time soon.

The city lost the Joe in the bankruptcy settlement. So it's in their best interest for the new arena to be built on time. If things are stalled the Wings might actually end up playing at the Palace. I doubt it comes to that, but the city no longer has any leverage or a lease agreement to force them to stay.

My guess: Is that the Park Avenue will fall before anything 'goes up.'

It doesn't make any sense to me not to demolish everything and do complete site prep before anything 'goes up.'

I just don't believe contractors say, '"hey, we'll demolish the Park Ave in September after the commission has spent months deliberating [[with all that it entails)..."

Lest I be wrong, part of the parking deck, etc. is below grade and physically connected to the arena.

I assume all excavation would be done at once... [[regardless of when the deck 'goes up').

Who wants to be putting steel in the ground nearby while another building is yet to be demolished?

That's exactly what's happening.

Perhaps Olympia should "think big picture" and just obligate themselves to restore the Eddystone. Then they could get the ball rolling.

http://www.detroitsports1051.com/mat...he-wings-arena

Councilman Spivey called the Matt Dery show and explained where things stand. It seems like there has been a lot of misconceptions in the media. According to him, the construction will start on schedule and get approval on Tuesday. It was the developer who needed more time in order to change the language[[ordinance). Basically if they had approved things as they stand, Olympia would have had to go through the historic preservation board to demo Park Ave. and it may not have been approved until May or later. The new language would let them demo the building and start shoveling next week. In return the city will get Olympia to redevelop Eddystone with the affordable housing guarantee.

Here's a link to the official site http://www.districtdetroit.com/news/...ddystone-hotel

Once approved by the Historic District Commission, work on the Eddystone Hotel could begin as early as fall of 2015

I have no doubt this will get done and it's clear that the last hurdle was getting approval to demo Park and restore Eddystone, before they start construction. There's no way they come out with a press release and renderings for Eddystone and not get it done. Olympia must spend $200 million on auxiliary development around the arena district. So far the only things announced is the Little Caesars HQ and Eddystone. That takes us to what, 50-100 mil? Add a Hotel on Woodward/Fisher and something next to Comerica and there you have it. As emu steve pointed out, with the M-1 rail line and all the development going on downtown and midtown this is the best time to do this. I don't know if people have been to KC, LA or Columbus, but their arena districts have done a great job revitalizing parts of the city that were desolate. We would be the only city in the US with three stadiums within walking distance of downtown. I still believe that at a later time, the Pistons will also play at the new arena and all four teams will be back in Detroit.

[Danny]

Don't forget the Unions[[they still hold a lot of power in this state) who will be benefit from the construction jobs.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...elay/25776657/

In the latest Freep poll 77% blamed council, voting for "They're standing in the way of progress". So the majority of people support this project. The only ones left against it are the preservationists and some politicians who are using this situation to gain political points with their supporters [[saying stuff like the money should be used for schools, roads etc). They know full well that it can only go for this type of development. I suspect many still don't understand how public bonds sales work. The state of Michigan is paying nothing. One of its economic development entities is selling bonds, and investors will buy them. That generates the $450 million. That is not tax money, and the bonds themselves [[Series A and B) are backed solely by dedicated revenue streams [[the ODM revenue pledge and the special DDA property tax on downtown properties which is coming from GM and other corporations). None of the money is coming from the general fund.

It's all comes down to these matters:

1. Will the Park and Eddystone Hotel stay?

2. What's in it for Detroiters [[ mostly black Detroiters) Is it jobs for them?

Without these requirements, The new Red Wings Arena construction will never happen.

[emu steve]

It's all comes down to these matters:

1. Will the Park and Eddystone Hotel stay?

2. What's in it for Detroiters [[ mostly black Detroiters) Is it jobs for them?

Without these requirements, The new Red Wings Arena construction will never happen.

#2, yes jobs. No one doubt that. I've never seen one of these development agreements where the developers were NOT willing to do 50%...

#1, Danny, I disagree with your 'AND'. I believe it should be 'OR'. I believe all the tap dancing is over guarantees on one building.

[royce]

I couldn't disagree more. If Olympia wants to restore the Eddystone as a trade off for tearing down the Park Avenue, then they damn well better actually commit in writing to doing so. A commitment to submit a PROPOSAL to renovate it with no obligation to follow through is totally meaningless. It would be easy to agree to this requirement if they are serious about restoring the Eddystone; if the entire project were to get delayed because of this it speaks volumes about their true intentions.

Right on point!

Now, my issue with tearing down the Hotel Park Avenue is this: Does Ilitch want to tear it down for safety reasons, outlined by Homeland Security, or tear it down for a loading dock? Which one is it? I can buy the security reason somewhat, but tearing it down for a loading dock is a bunch of crap. You mean to tell me that Olympia didn't predict that they would need a loading dock when they originally made plans for the new arena? What, they didn't think they needed one? Or are the saying they need more than one now? I mean it sounds like they had intended to use the area for a loading dock, but didn't want to admit it as the reason for tearing down the old hotel.

Also, looking at the plans, if they didn't need the loading dock that they now claim to need, then wouldn't tearing down the hotel make more room for the parking deck to be extended and therefore make more parking spaces? I'm not understanding why they want to reduce the number of parking deck parking spaces when they now have room to add more.

It's apparent to me and to many around here that Olympia only wants to spend money on the arena and not much on parking decks. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the Ilitches have only built two parking decks to my knowledge, the one behind Hockeytown Cafe and the one just north of Comerica Park. They know that parking decks cost more money than having surface parking lots. If they're not forced or required to build them, it's obvious that they're not going to do so. So when people question their promise that they are going to rehap the Eddystone, I understand their skeptism. I'm skeptical as well.

[detroitbob]

Another parking deck is planned behind St. John's Episcopal Church as the development across and around the Fox moves forward. The big picture is that more is going on than the new Arena....the Fox building addition and the apartments across from the Fox help complete the Foxtown Woodward Ave. plans.

[bailey]

Another parking deck is planned behind St. John's Episcopal Church as the development across and around the Fox moves forward. The big picture is that more is going on than the new Arena....the Fox building addition and the apartments across from the Fox help complete the Foxtown Woodward Ave. plans.

I can see PERHAPS that Little Caesars expansion happening, but Olympia has never followed through on the "district" that was supposed to be created when CoPA opened....instead we lost buildings for more surface parking. I don't see olympia ever removing parking to put up a residential building. Why are so many so willing to let Lucy hold the football again?

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

I can see PERHAPS that Little Caesars expansion happening, but Olympia has never followed through on the "district" that was supposed to be created when CoPA opened....instead we lost buildings for more surface parking. I don't see olympia ever removing parking to put up a residential building. Why are so many so willing to let Lucy hold the football again?

Just as Charlie Brown always believed Lucy, some folks truly seem to trust that Olympia will follow through "this time," ignoring their past history. I just can't see it happening without their feet being held to the fire.

I read recently that Charles Schultz regretted not letting Charlie Brown kick the ball at least one time. I wish he had.

[emu steve]

Just as Charlie Brown always believed Lucy, some folks truly seem to trust that Olympia will follow through "this time," ignoring their past history. I just can't see it happening without their feet being held to the fire.

I read recently that Charles Schultz regretted not letting Charlie Brown kick the ball at least one time. I wish he had.

I take a different view then many here.

A developer makes a prognostican that some development makes financial sense [[I wanted to say 'cents' but we're talking many millions).

Some times those 'educated guesses' later don't make sense and development stops [[doesn't start).

I should post photographs of buildings which were started near the Rivera in Vegas but came to a grinding halt in 2008 when the economy tanked. [[they still haven't finished. One hasn't had any development since 2008).

That said, there are no conditions I see why the arena including parking garage, another garage by Comerica, maybe a couple residential buildings adjacent to CoPa, a hotel at Woodward/Fisher, and the office building next to the Fox, etc. shouldn't happen.

Conditions are right. Credit markets are favorable. Downtown/Midtown development is very strong including other projects within southern Midtown. Housing market is tight in the arena area. As there is plenty of motivation, as others have mentioned, with The Joe, committed in bankruptcy and also strong pressure for construction jobs.

When I look at what I mentioned: one arena, one [[attached) parking garage, one parking garage by CoPa, and the other buildings I mentioned ALL SEEM to make financial sense.

I can't see a lender saying: "No, this project is too speculative. We can't see the demand for [[whatever)."

P.S. Would folks be happier if Ilitch built the arena himself and he got subsidies for each residential building he builds or renovates in the district?

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

Dozens of vacant or underutilized buildings have successfully been renovated in downtown Detroit; not by Olympia but by others.

Does this mean that until now the redevelopment of Illitch properties has not made any financial sense while it did make sense for everyone else? And that is why we can trust them to follow through this time? Does Olympia operate in a different economy? I'd say the conditions have been "right" for some time and what has been lacking is a desire by Olympia to actually pursue the projects that they dangle in front of people. Just look at the activity around Grand Circus, while the UA hulk sits there.

[rb336]

As dozens of vacant or underutilized buildings have successfully been renovated in downtown Detroit, I assume the redevelopment of Illitch properties has not made any financial sense. Does Olympia operate in a different economy?

of which properties do you speak?

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

of which properties do you speak?

I edited my prior post because I think my point was unclear.

[erikd]

I think many of your assertions are way, way off.

Are you suggesting that the Ilitches AREN'T going through zoning, permitting, etc. etc. for the arena and the other buildings, e.g., parking deck, team buildings, residential buildings on the arena site? OR are you talking about ONE building [[an abandoned hotel)?

If this project [[the two shuttered hotels) could be compared to a dog or a horse, some are talking about the tail, the least important part of the animal.

************

As far as the what the community gets back from their $ for sports facilities.

Once again, it is the aggregate which is reported in these studies. Some projects have big payoffs. Some made no sense [[e.g., FedEx Field in suburban D.C.) and quite frankly one could see it from day one. Many of these were dumped into suburbia to get them out of the city and there was NOT any plan to use them as a catalyst for urban development. They were DESIGNED [[stupidly) as a place where suburbanites drove to, parked, watched and drove home. Man, I can remember the arena built in early 70s in Richfield, Ohio [[think it was 25 miles from Cleveland and near NOTHING).

If that is what you want, then one should not expect anything greater.

This project seems to have as great a payoff as any sports facility I've seen with the exemption of Nationals Park and Verizon Center, both in D.C., where a sports facility attracts development money. I watched as the Nationals Park was approved by the D.C. council how bidding contests developed for real estate from the stadium site to the SE Expressway.

Surprisingly, if one gets off this forum and into the 'real world' [[this forum is NOT a true representation of the Metro Detroit area. It is a very skewed 'sample', heavily weighted toward certain interests, e.g., historic preservation.), one will find very, very different opinions.

Just talk to the business and political leaders. As best I can tell, this arena has the wholehearted support of the most influential business leaders and politicians [[e.g., the mayor, the governor, etc.).

Does anyone here doubt the wisdom of Dan Gilbert? Would anyone say "I'm right and Dan is wrong. He doesn't know anything about sports facilities and real estate development"?

This isn't about the theoretical possibility of what might happen if Ilitch follows through on his vague promises. This is about making him sign a contract committing to some of those promises in exchange for hundreds of millions in tax dollars.

I agree that his promises sound wonderful, but would be incredibly irresponsible for City Council to agree to this huge investment of tax dollars without something in writing from Ilitch in return.

"Just trust me" isn't good enough for an investment of hundreds of millions in public money.

[erikd]

I take a different view then many here.

A developer makes a prognostican that some development makes financial sense [[I wanted to say 'cents' but we're talking many millions).

Some times those 'educated guesses' later don't make sense and development stops [[doesn't start).

I should post photographs of buildings which were started near the Rivera in Vegas but came to a grinding halt in 2008 when the economy tanked. [[they still haven't finished. One hasn't had any development since 2008).

That said, there are no conditions I see why the arena including parking garage, another garage by Comerica, maybe a couple residential buildings adjacent to CoPa, a hotel at Woodward/Fisher, and the office building next to the Fox, etc. shouldn't happen.

Conditions are right. Credit markets are favorable. Downtown/Midtown development is very strong including other projects within southern Midtown. Housing market is tight in the arena area. As there is plenty of motivation, as others have mentioned, with The Joe, committed in bankruptcy and also strong pressure for construction jobs.

When I look at what I mentioned: one arena, one [[attached) parking garage, one parking garage by CoPa, and the other buildings I mentioned ALL SEEM to make financial sense.

I can't see a lender saying: "No, this project is too speculative. We can't see the demand for [[whatever)."

P.S. Would folks be happier if Ilitch built the arena himself and he got subsidies for each residential building he builds or renovates in the district?

This situation has less to do with the feasibility, market demand, or availability of credit required to build apartments/offices/hotels in the arena/stadium district, and more to do with the desire of Ilitch to actually build those things.

Ilitch is in the sports and entertainment industry, which places a high premium on the availability of large amounts of adjacent parking. Just because Ilitch could theoretically make a profit on apartment and office buildings next to the arena doesn't mean that it would be a good investment for him. Stadium parking lots are very cheap to build and staff, the taxes are much less than they would be on a building, and they are cash cows.

P.S. I would be much happier if Ilitch built the arena himself and then got subsidies for each building renovation in the district. He has sold us this false promise of future development numerous times in the past, but never follows through with it. Maybe this will be the first time he honors his word, but after getting burned a few times, I would rather get it in writing this time.