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  1. #76

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    There really shouldn't be any debate on this. The fact of the matter is that Ilitch doesn't like taking care of old icky buildings that drain his money. A public park with a huge uninteresting parking garage next to it feels like the least urban thing that could replace a historic structure. At least have a giant TV screen or interesting design on the facade of the garage. Or maybe even extent the residential buildings that front the other parking garage to front both parking garages. Otherwise, that part of the arena district is destined to be a dead zone. Which, if I remember correctly, the way in which this arena is design is supposed to prevent dead zones.

  2. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by rex View Post
    She (Councilmember Raquel Castaneda-Lopez) asked for the zip codes of Red Wings suite holders, who would use most of the on-site parking.
    "I would put that in the 'none of your business' category," said Heapes (design manager). "But we can give a summary of that."
    Maybe I'm a little dense, but WTF does she need to know the zip codes of the suite holders for??? How in any way is that associated with the arena discussion?

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by rex View Post
    im sorry but the proposed arena is hideous. I realize they're the Red Wings but does the arena have to be that red?
    That is for game nights. Green for St. Patrick's Day, etc.

    I assume nothing on many days..

  4. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeg19 View Post
    Maybe I'm a little dense, but WTF does she need to know the zip codes of the suite holders for??? How in any way is that associated with the arena discussion?
    The parking garages are for VIP parking only on game nights. Typically NFL stadiums have that sort of parking (not that I know if the councilwoman knew that).

  5. #80

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    I certainly hope that a garage would get used more than 41 (plus 2-12 playoff games) nights per year. It should be used for other events at the arena (presumably it will) and for Tigers baseball.

  6. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by EL Jimbo View Post
    perhaps if you turned off the snark and turned on your brain you would see the relevance of 9/11 to a discussion on event security. I'm not sure what rock you've been living under for the past 14 years, but the rest of us noticed that security issues have taken on greater importance since those attacks happened. Arenas built prior to 9/11 (like the Verizon Center) didn't have the same security precautions built into them that post 9/11 construction is more likely to have.

    Heck, the Department of Homeland Security wouldn't even exist if not for 9/11. If you can't understand the impact and relevance 9/11 had on the security concerns of the design of public or other gathering spaces then there is really no point continuing a discussion with you as you lack the required knowledge to have a worthwhile debate on the issue.
    Fine. How about a more relevant example then...

    The Consol Energy Center in Pittsburgh broke ground it 2008. It has a church and a hotel right next to it, as well as an intact city block across the street. It's been open for 5 years and has yet to be RPG'ed.

    https://www.google.com/maps/place/CO...ac0eb9c25713ab

  7. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan_the_man View Post
    Fine. How about a more relevant example then...

    The Consol Energy Center in Pittsburgh broke ground it 2008. It has a church and a hotel right next to it, as well as an intact city block across the street. It's been open for 5 years and has yet to be RPG'ed.

    https://www.google.com/maps/place/CO...ac0eb9c25713ab
    Good example. I like that they even allowed a little 2-3 story standing-alone historic building to stay standing about 30 feet behind the east end of the area. Such presence of insigificant history jamming up prime patron parking would never stand in an Olympia joint.

    Another example, the new Prudential Center in Newark. A high-rise Hotel Indigo (formerly abandoned!!) right outside, a new Marriot right behind its VIP garage, and a row of bars with lofts above surrounding its main (north) entrance along Edison and Market Streets.
    https://maps.google.com/maps?q=indig...,0.006968&z=18
    Last edited by Mackinaw; March-27-15 at 12:09 PM.

  8. #83

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    I think Curbed has the best "timeline" of excuses for why the P.A needs to be torn down. Several differing excuses cited.

  9. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by EL Jimbo View Post
    perhaps if you turned off the snark and turned on your brain you would see the relevance of 9/11 to a discussion on event security. I'm not sure what rock you've been living under for the past 14 years, but the rest of us noticed that security issues have taken on greater importance since those attacks happened. Arenas built prior to 9/11 (like the Verizon Center) didn't have the same security precautions built into them that post 9/11 construction is more likely to have.

    Heck, the Department of Homeland Security wouldn't even exist if not for 9/11. If you can't understand the impact and relevance 9/11 had on the security concerns of the design of public or other gathering spaces then there is really no point continuing a discussion with you as you lack the required knowledge to have a worthwhile debate on the issue.
    Relevance? Your argument lacks practicality. What do you find reasonable? 150' buffers around every proposed public structure from here on out? Just a reminder that cities are made up of buildings that tend to be close together. The historic structures were here first. The architects and engineers are the professionals that should make them safe considering no such law or policy actually requires removal of the building. This is an excuse.

  10. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolverine View Post
    Relevance? Your argument lacks practicality. What do you find reasonable? 150' buffers around every proposed public structure from here on out? Just a reminder that cities are made up of buildings that tend to be close together. The historic structures were here first. The architects and engineers are the professionals that should make them safe considering no such law or policy actually requires removal of the building. This is an excuse.
    But but but....you don't live enough in fear! The homeland security apparatus/lobby/industry will not be happy with that!

  11. #86

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    I heard that anyone entering the arena will be subjected to a search, where Olympia Entertainment staff will turn you upside down and shake you until every last cent falls out of your pockets. You know, for security reasons.

  12. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolverine View Post
    Relevance? Your argument lacks practicality. What do you find reasonable? 150' buffers around every proposed public structure from here on out? Just a reminder that cities are made up of buildings that tend to be close together. The historic structures were here first. The architects and engineers are the professionals that should make them safe considering no such law or policy actually requires removal of the building. This is an excuse.
    excuse. reason. whatever. I don't think the Park Avenue is such a great building that it will be missed horribly when it's gone. It had a nice street front facade, but that's about it. I don't think it was ever considered a "gem" even in its hay-day. But go ahead, get worked up about it if it makes you happy

  13. #88

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    http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...vote/25710591/

    How incredibly priceless and appropriate that the Council wants an ordinance reflecting a commitment to restore the Eddystone, Olympia says no-can-do but you have our word, and Council accordingly votes 6-3 against approving the plan today.

    Good for them.

    Looks like the Hotel Park Ave. is being forsaken by the council, however, and it will fall to the purview of the Historic District Commission. What's interesting there is whether the Duggan administrator will abide by the HDC on such a high-profile building in the event (or likelihood) that the HDC denies a demolition permit. With the lower-profile Deck Bar/Historic Bank building on Jefferson @ Alter, Duggan's people recently defied the HDC and issued a permit notwithstanding the HDC's unanimous denial and longstanding fight which including victories in court. Could the Hotel Park Avenue come down to such an intergovernmental struggle? I sure hope not.

  14. #89

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    Olympia consultant John Graves to council: “It’s just a matter of trust, whether you believe the developer on that promise" for Eddystone.

    Apparently council is skeptical, rightfully so...

  15. #90
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    I've seen this dog and pony show in D.C. (w. Nationals Park) - and the stadium was not technically finished for opening day 2008 despite tons of overtime, cost overruns, etc.

    I'm not sure of all of the problems. I know the Council finally approved it at something like 2 - 3:00 a.m. Sunday morning. I believe their backs were to the wall (IF they did not approve it then, the Nationals would have to prepare RFK Stadium for 2008 MLB. The start date kept getting moved back.).
    Last edited by emu steve; April-13-15 at 03:44 PM.

  16. #91

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    Olympia keeps talking about how they need this approved so they can start construction and they are running out of time, but they are the ones that took three months to revise their zoning change request and then put pressure on council to approve it in a few days without adequate time for them to look it over. They sure know how to play the game if nothing else...

  17. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mackinaw View Post
    Looks like the Hotel Park Ave. is being forsaken by the council, however, and it will fall to the purview of the Historic District Commission. What's interesting there is whether the Duggan administrator will abide by the HDC on such a high-profile building in the event (or likelihood) that the HDC denies a demolition permit. With the lower-profile Deck Bar/Historic Bank building on Jefferson @ Alter, Duggan's people recently defied the HDC and issued a permit notwithstanding the HDC's unanimous denial and longstanding fight which including victories in court. Could the Hotel Park Avenue come down to such an intergovernmental struggle? I sure hope not.
    I'd be shocked if they HDC didn't deny this. That said, Illitch will probably accidentally swing a wrecking ball into the building deeming it structurally unsound and in need of an emergency demolition or some other crap like they pulled with the Madison Lennox. As much as I want this building saved, I have a feeling that they will find a way to tear it down legal or not.

  18. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan_the_man View Post
    Olympia keeps talking about how they need this approved so they can start construction and they are running out of time, but they are the ones that took three months to revise their zoning change request and then put pressure on council to approve it in a few days without adequate time for them to look it over. They sure know how to play the game if nothing else...

    thing is they can begin excavation.. this rezoning is required for vertical construction only...

    actually rumor has it excavation of the ground did begin today around noon. can anyone confirm?

  19. #94

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    Yeah these guys are going to develop 50 blocks. They can't even develop 5.

  20. #95

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    Its good for the city council delay the vote for the Red Wings Arena. Both the Park and Eddystone Hotel can not be town down. Those buildings are once called " Puttin' on the Ritz" 5 star hotel are very historic and its met to be kept up. Another thing is those two historic homes on Cass/Clifford Rd. It has to stay. So Illitch and his greedy private corporations would have to go back the drawing board and figure out to the woo and impress the new city council and how is this new arena be possible to all Metro-Detroiters.

    This is kind of like "It's in it for black people." who are still dominate in Detroit.

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mackinaw View Post
    http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...vote/25710591/

    How incredibly priceless and appropriate that the Council wants an ordinance reflecting a commitment to restore the Eddystone, Olympia says no-can-do but you have our word, and Council accordingly votes 6-3 against approving the plan today.

    Good for them.

    Looks like the Hotel Park Ave. is being forsaken by the council, however, and it will fall to the purview of the Historic District Commission. What's interesting there is whether the Duggan administrator will abide by the HDC on such a high-profile building in the event (or likelihood) that the HDC denies a demolition permit. With the lower-profile Deck Bar/Historic Bank building on Jefferson @ Alter, Duggan's people recently defied the HDC and issued a permit notwithstanding the HDC's unanimous denial and longstanding fight which including victories in court. Could the Hotel Park Avenue come down to such an intergovernmental struggle? I sure hope not.
    IF I'm following you correctly, Duggan has 'the last say'. Correct?

    If so, Duggan will get a deal done. He wants this project to get done. I'm not sure what type of 'guarantee' he'd demand, but...
    Last edited by emu steve; April-13-15 at 05:11 PM.

  22. #97

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    there should be contractual guarantees about renovating the hotel site for housing, including affordable housing. There really should have been a CBA for the entire project since this is 58% publicly funded.

  23. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by EL Jimbo View Post
    perhaps if you turned off the snark and turned on your brain you would see the relevance of 9/11 to a discussion on event security. I'm not sure what rock you've been living under for the past 14 years, but the rest of us noticed that security issues have taken on greater importance since those attacks happened. Arenas built prior to 9/11 (like the Verizon Center) didn't have the same security precautions built into them that post 9/11 construction is more likely to have.

    Heck, the Department of Homeland Security wouldn't even exist if not for 9/11. If you can't understand the impact and relevance 9/11 had on the security concerns of the design of public or other gathering spaces then there is really no point continuing a discussion with you as you lack the required knowledge to have a worthwhile debate on the issue.
    Wow, missed this doozy of a post. The point, which apparently flew over your head, was that the precautions you want to unquestioningly accept do nothing to make anyone safer. Since they don't make you safer, but they can be used as an excuse to make our cities worse for the people who actually live in them, we shouldn't support them just because somebody in Washington said so. And most especially not when the Illitches are using it in a self-serving way just to get what they want.

    Yes, I know that 9/11 caused people to lose their shit, set up DHS, create silly rules just to appear to be "doing something to keep us safe". I was here too. That doesn't mean that tearing down the Park Avenue will make the Red Wings' new arena safer. A terrorist intent on killing people could simply shoot everyone standing in line to get their bags checked at security, today or in the future, without climbing up the Park Avenue. But tearing that building down will definitely replace a potentially reusable historic building with a loading dock. Given that your position has no benefit but a significant cost, I'll oppose it regardless of what some bureaucrat at DHS says.
    Last edited by Junjie; April-14-15 at 12:39 AM.

  24. #99
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    I'm with Tom Walsh on this: If the city wants folks to build, renovate, etc. time to start trusting one another and get things moving. A city proves itself when it minimizes red tape, delays, etc. (and man, I hate when these common councils in cities can't agree and things drag on and on and folks just get frustrated and the air gets poisoned).

    Sometimes folks need to see the 'big picture' and run with it.

    http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...elay/25749763/

  25. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyles View Post
    there should be contractual guarantees about renovating the hotel site for housing, including affordable housing. There really should have been a CBA for the entire project since this is 58% publicly funded.
    Marathon showed you get this stuff LOCKED.

    The media in this town is such garbage.

    They'll write that a billionaire should be fellatioed on command and call the city council obstructionists.

    A year later they'll write how foolish the council was not to get guarantees in writing.

    I can't wait for both rags to go bankrupt to see these clowns twist in the "real/business world" they're always banging on about.

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