What is going on at Red Wings arena site?

[Gistok]

CrashDummy.... unlike Mike Ilitch... Chuck forbes is no billionaire....
http://detroithistorical.org/learn/e...t/forbes-chuck

He's had more bang for his limited bucks than the Ilitch's have when it comes to preserving the historic fabric of the city. The Gem and Century Theatre's and Elwood Bar & Grill would have been turned to dust were it not for his determination in saving them from certain death.

He's been slowly working to get the Fillmore/State restored [[a theatre that size is very expensive to restore).... the outer and inner lobbies are completed, but the auditorium requires work, and downtime for the theatre is something he can't easily afford. So the LiveNations folks who are renting the place have been doing some work in the auditorium with Cherry Pickers.... but that's slow going. Mercifully the theatre has always been well maintained under Chuck's watch.... which was sadly not the case for Ilitch's now gone Adams, and decimated United Artists... both badly mutilated under his watch.

[detroitbob]

I'm going to toss EVERYONE a CURVE ball [[but some might be able to discern what is coming):

Most everything done on this huge project will probably have Chris Ilitch's DNA on it. I assume Chris is much more savvy and interested in these matters

IF I'm reading this right, we just might have very different outcomes based on the knowledge, skills and interests of the two Ilitches...

Check back with me say in 30 months. Okay?

Is my characterization of Chris correct??????

You are correct EMU Steve. I know that Chris Ilitch is responsible for the restoration of the cornice of the Fox Theatre bldg., saving the façade of the Fine Arts bldg., and of note has authorized funding for major restoration/repairs to the Wurlitzer pipe organ in the auditorium of the Fox. I suspect he had significant input on the concept for the new Fox bldg. addition. Different attitude.

[Gistok]

You are correct EMU Steve. I know that Chris Ilitch is responsible for the restoration of the cornice of the Fox Theatre bldg., saving the façade of the Fine Arts bldg., and of note has authorized funding for major restoration/repairs to the Wurlitzer pipe organ in the auditorium of the Fox. I suspect he had significant input on the concept for the new Fox bldg. addition. Different attitude.

I certainly hope that Chris Ilitch is a new hope for the surviving historic fabric of what the Ilitch's still own downtown. But the facade of the Fine Arts Building was more or less forced upon the Ilitch's. When the wooded support interior of the Fine Arts Building started collapsing due to their maintenance negligence, the Detroit Historic Commission told them that they could tear down the building, but not the facade.... and here it still stands many years later... with no plans announced....

It has been nearly 4 1/2 years ago that Chrysler made their famous Eminem SuperBowl commercial showing the beautiful Fox Theatre interior. But at the 14 second mark at the beginning of the video... we are shown the grim reminder that the Fine Art's Building facade has already been sitting there moldering away for years. Just how long are the Ilitch's going to ignore this? Until it becomes another safety hazard and has to be torn down?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3guZ7dMAkc

[detroitbob]

You are correct EMU Steve. I know that Chris Ilitch is responsible for the restoration of the cornice of the Fox Theatre bldg., saving the façade of the Fine Arts bldg., and of note has authorized funding for major restoration/repairs to the Wurlitzer pipe organ in the auditorium of the Fox. I suspect he had significant input on the concept for the new Fox bldg. addition. Different attitude.

In addition, CI is responsible for the reroofing of the United Artist's building and theatre, cleaning out both, getting utilities back on, etc. In addition, contractors have been through the UA complex giving estimates on what restoration would cost and at that point were asked to sign confidentiality agreements, not unusual for a large scale project. The restored United Artists in Los Angeles could be the prototype for the Detroit building with a restored auditorium and the office structure being converted to hotel or condo/apartment use. Don't underestimate the 'big picture' view of what will evolve in this part of downtown Detroit. The Grand River corridor between Bagley and Trumbull will be transformed, as will Michigan Ave [[ West Corktown) to W Grand Blvd.

[Dbest]

I certainly hope that Chris Ilitch is a new hope for the surviving historic fabric of what the Ilitch's still own downtown. But the facade of the Fine Arts Building was more or less forced upon the Ilitch's. When the wooded support interior of the Fine Arts Building started collapsing due to their maintenance negligence, the Detroit Historic Commission told them that they could tear down the building, but not the facade.... and here it still stands many years later... with no plans announced....

It has been nearly 4 1/2 years ago that Chrysler made their famous Eminem SuperBowl commercial showing the beautiful Fox Theatre interior. But at the 14 second mark at the beginning of the video... we are shown the grim reminder that the Fine Art's Building facade has already been sitting there moldering away for years. Just how long are the Ilitch's going to ignore this? Until it becomes another safety hazard and has to be torn down?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3guZ7dMAkc

Don't forget the lonely flag pole at Tiger Stadium too. The worst part is that they reused these 2 shots for the follow up super bowl ad the next year.

Go to the 28 second mark and there they are again;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iXdsvgpwc8

[Gistok]

In addition, CI is responsible for the reroofing of the United Artist's building and theatre, cleaning out both, getting utilities back on, etc. In addition, contractors have been through the UA complex giving estimates on what restoration would cost and at that point were asked to sign confidentiality agreements, not unusual for a large scale project. The restored United Artists in Los Angeles could be the prototype for the Detroit building with a restored auditorium and the office structure being converted to hotel or condo/apartment use. Don't underestimate the 'big picture' view of what will evolve in this part of downtown Detroit. The Grand River corridor between Bagley and Trumbull will be transformed, as will Michigan Ave [[ West Corktown) to W Grand Blvd.

If Chris Ilitch was the catalyst for cleaning and mothballing the United Artists complex, I applaud that move. Unfortunately he probably got sticker shock when he saw what a restoral would cost, because of the neglect for so many years... but the UA is a smaller theatre than the Fox, Fillmore and DOH. However it was packed full of ornamental plasterwork... which is why it was called "the Jewel Box" among downtown theatres. One can only hope that there is a future in Detroit for a restoration. However, there appears to be an oversupply of venues at the moment, so it's hard to say what the future holds.

The Los Angeles UA was in much better condition, since it was used as a church for several decades.

[emu steve]

If Chris Ilitch was the catalyst for cleaning and mothballing the United Artists complex, I applaud that move. Unfortunately he probably got sticker shock when he saw what a restoral would cost, because of the neglect for so many years... but the UA is a smaller theatre than the Fox, Fillmore and DOH. However it was packed full of ornamental plasterwork... which is why it was called "the Jewel Box" among downtown theatres. One can only hope that there is a future in Detroit for a restoration. However, there appears to be an oversupply of venues at the moment, so it's hard to say what the future holds.

The Los Angeles UA was in much better condition, since it was used as a church for several decades.

Sometimes I need a thick skin to post on this forum [[or at least this thread), but I did wonder about making a statement such as:

"However, there appears to be an oversupply of venues at the moment,"

I really did think about it. Isn't the National theatre also sitting there just waiting but waiting for what?

Why would a developer re-develop theaters and other buildings if there is already sufficient capacity to meet the current and expected demand or need?

I doubt any developer who would need financing would find it easy to find. The business plan simply might not seem feasible.

What we're seeing in [[Detroit's) lodging and residential housing is that demand has increased substantially and supply will catch up with demand. Many have gotten burnt when supply exceeds demand be it hotel rooms, housing, and even things like seats on airlines [[the airlines have FINALLY gotten smart to control supply of available seats).

And lenders are, quite rightly, cautious about lending in Detroit. The risks are higher than many other large cities.

[southen]

That explains why the UA theater hasn't been rehabbed, but what about the office portion? Lets not make it seem like the Illitch's plans are solely dictated by market forces, there is a great deal of ineptitude and selfishness involved.

[bailey]

If Chris Ilitch was the catalyst for cleaning and mothballing the United Artists complex, I applaud that move. Unfortunately he probably got sticker shock when he saw what a restoral would cost, because of the neglect for so many years... but the UA is a smaller theatre than the Fox, Fillmore and DOH. However it was packed full of ornamental plasterwork... which is why it was called "the Jewel Box" among downtown theatres. One can only hope that there is a future in Detroit for a restoration. However, there appears to be an oversupply of venues at the moment, so it's hard to say what the future holds.

I don't think the future is going to change the market for theater space. So the issue is what can be done to reconfigure them to a more appropriate usage. I think far to much focus has been on making it Fox 2.0.. that's just not gonna happen unless someone does it as a vanity project.

[Gistok]

I don't think the future is going to change the market for theater space. So the issue is what can be done to reconfigure them to a more appropriate usage. I think far to much focus has been on making it Fox 2.0.. that's just not gonna happen unless someone does it as a vanity project.

This 2006 article basically states what is still a problem.... a lack of quality touring shows, and declining subscriptions.....
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/20/th...pagewanted=all

Remember last year's DYES freebie.... RIVERDANCE "HEARTBEAT OF HOME".... an absolutely stunning show at the Fisher Theatre? It performed for a week each in Toronto, Chicago, Detroit and Boston.... and then has never been heard from again.... anywhere in the world!!

[bailey]

This 2006 article basically states what is still a problem.... a lack of quality touring shows, and declining subscriptions.....
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/20/th...pagewanted=all
Remember last year's DYES freebie.... RIVERDANCE "HEARTBEAT OF HOME".... an absolutely stunning show at the Fisher Theatre? It performed for a week each in Toronto, Chicago, Detroit and Boston.... and then has never been heard from again.... anywhere in the world!!

...and that's from going on a decade ago, and nothing's changed. If anything, they've probably continued to move away from theater going even more. I don't see any of that changing unless ticket prices drastically decrease. If I'm going to watch Wicked....do I shell out 150-350 a ticket for the road show when i can sit at home with a 60+ HDTV, digital sound and the Broadway cast or make it a NYC or Chicago "get away" type event? It's a similar thing that's hitting sports and concerts. Price the audience out and put average product on the field/stage and they'll watch your product passively at BW3 or in their man cave or download it on itunes.

And I think that Riverdance thing is a perfect example of the problem. It's Riverdance. it's just a variation on a theme. Irish dancing set to interesting visuals....ok... entertaining once, but not over and over and over. Just like Stomp and Crash and Blast... or with the all Cirque d soleil stuff. when you've seen one, the subsequent various Cirques are just more acrobats in different costumes flinging themselves about to different music. So I think you're going to have the 2 or three Disney shows a year and few other revival type shows..and that's it. There is more than enough seats now, so we should just drop the expectation that more will ever be necessary and stop letting that be an excuse for olympia to let them further deteriorate.

[Gistok]

Actually, and this from someone who isn't all that entertained by dance.... the Heartbeat of Home Riverdance show was phenomenal.... much much better than either Riverdance and Lord of the Dance [[loads of DYESers saw it... what say yee?).

The problem of oversupply of venues is twofold.... 1).... the Casino's each built their own 1000-1200 seat performance venues [[including a large one at Casino Windsor).... and 2) venues such as the Macomb Center and Freedom Hill in addition to Meadowbrook and DTE outdoor venues spreads the performance dollars even farther. The Macomb Center [[M-59 & Garfield) also has a large subscription clientele to their extensive show list.

But the downtown venues have adapted... now when Preservation Detroit does their annual August Downtown Theatre Tours.... our biggest headache is working around wedding receptions at the Gem, Century or Fillmore... even the Fox and DOH offer wedding packages in their lobbies [[or in the case of the Opera House cantelevered from the stage over the auditorium). All of these venues also cater to business meetings and functions.

[Detroit500]

Could the UA be converted into a hotel? Perhaps the theatre could be used primarily as a banquet space.

[mikeg19]

That explains why the UA theater hasn't been rehabbed, but what about the office portion? Lets not make it seem like the Illitch's plans are solely dictated by market forces, there is a great deal of ineptitude and selfishness involved.

My thoughts as well. But would it make sense to market the tower separately? Is that even an option?

At this point in time, I don't know how you justify dumping a gigantic amount of cash in rehabbing a theater when you have an abundance of options currently in the area. Adding another concert/theater venue just doesn't seem to make sense financially. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but just from what I'm observing.

[emu steve]

How many theaters do the Ilitches control, including the one at the MotorCity Casino Hotel?

[Gistok]

How many theaters do the Ilitches control, including the one at the MotorCity Casino Hotel?

The former UA, the Fox, the City [[former Second City), and wasn't there one in Birmingham?

[Danny]

Yes, It's called the Birmingham Paladium 12 now closed.

[detroitbob]

Yes, It's called the Birmingham Paladium 12 now closed.

But this venue was not operated by Olympia Entertainment...one of the kids who operate the Birmingham picked it up when the former operators bailed out.

[emu steve]

http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...tons/28595777/

Looks like Pistons' basketball games [[some) could be coming to the new arena.

I really wonder if Gores has any interest in being a part owner of a soccer team based in Midtown? The mayor's brother and Gores???

I don't see the Iliches interested in another sports franchise [[I worry more about the Tigers and Wings after Mike is gone).

Keep adding events [[e.g., Pistons - 5 games now and maybe 40+ later, maybe another soccer team with say 20+ games) and eventually there could be say 150 event days in this midtown area, I'd guess. [[not counting any events south of the Fisher at Comerica or Ford Field).

I could see more bars and eateries coming...

[Detroitdave]

If Dan Gilbert had his hands on it we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
It would be either done by now or having work done on it.
That's the difference between Dan and Mike , the Illches drag their feet and want a hand out.

[ABetterDetroit]

If Dan Gilbert had his hands on it we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
It would be either done by now or having work done on it.
That's the difference between Dan and Mike , the Illches drag their feet and want a hand out.

Lets not confuse the facts. Mike is not running much directly anymore. When we say the "Ilitchs" that means the kids these days. Comparing Dan to the kids is first generation to the second. Almost always there is a very big difference. I am willing to let one of the kids prove me wrong but it hasn't happened yet that's for sure, they have as big of a cloud of mystery as the old man. That is not how Dan operates fortunately. If I where one of the kids, I would be embarrassed to be in the same room as Dan Gilbert let alone standing anywhere near him.

[detroitbob]

My thoughts as well. But would it make sense to market the tower separately? Is that even an option?

At this point in time, I don't know how you justify dumping a gigantic amount of cash in rehabbing a theater when you have an abundance of options currently in the area. Adding another concert/theater venue just doesn't seem to make sense financially. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but just from what I'm observing.

If the United Artist's Building was to go Hotel and apartment condo mix, the rehab of the theatre portion would be almost a given, as the space would be needed for events and could be used a banquet/ballroom/event space. The UA in Los Angeles is being used as a muli-event facility.

[Gistok]

If the United Artist's Building was to go Hotel and apartment condo mix, the rehab of the theatre portion would be almost a given, as the space would be needed for events and could be used a banquet/ballroom/event space. The UA in Los Angeles is being used as a muli-event facility.

Our auto companies seem to do so well with paying big bucks for naming rights for theatres.... IN OTHER CITIES... Just maybe one of them could step up to the plate here in Detroit.... Ford paid big bucks for the naming rights for the Ford Center [[Oriental) in Chicago, and GM paid big bucks for the naming rights of the "Cadillac Palace" [[Palace) Theatre there as well.

They tried to get the naming rights to the Detroit Opera House so bad.... but MOT General Director David DiChiera wisely avoided that so as not to turn off the money spigot from any of the rest of them, should one of them get the building naming rights.

Perhaps the Detroit United Artists could go up for Marquee naming rights to help pay for the badly needed restoral work that 20 years of neglect brought on. The U/A could double as a theatre and ballroom space.... it's not too large to be a ballroom, and not too small to be a performance venue.

[emu steve]

Lets not confuse the facts. Mike is not running much directly anymore. When we say the "Ilitchs" that means the kids these days. Comparing Dan to the kids is first generation to the second. Almost always there is a very big difference. I am willing to let one of the kids prove me wrong but it hasn't happened yet that's for sure, they have as big of a cloud of mystery as the old man. That is not how Dan operates fortunately. If I where one of the kids, I would be embarrassed to be in the same room as Dan Gilbert let alone standing anywhere near him.

If by Ilitches we mean the kids and by the kids we mean 'Chris'.

Chris heads up Ilitch Holdings, I believe.

There must be interesting discussions between Mike, Mariam and Chris on spending hundreds of millions of dollars... [[tens of millions on individual development projects like the new office building next to the Fox and new housing/parking deck by Comerica).

Hopefully this has all been agreed to and simply up to Chris to 'make it happen', executing a plan which has agreed for years now [[I assume the plans are at least a few years old and only finalized in the last year or two).

My gut is that the completion of work near Comerica [[e.g., office building, apartments, parking deck) was awaiting the completion of a 'master plan' which includes the new arena or was 'folded into' that 650M plan.

[mikemcm]

Lets not confuse the facts. Mike is not running much directly anymore. When we say the "Ilitchs" that means the kids these days. Comparing Dan to the kids is first generation to the second. Almost always there is a very big difference. I am willing to let one of the kids prove me wrong but it hasn't happened yet that's for sure, they have as big of a cloud of mystery as the old man. That is not how Dan operates fortunately. If I where one of the kids, I would be embarrassed to be in the same room as Dan Gilbert let alone standing anywhere near him.

Oh please, let's not act like Gilbert is some saint here. He's claim to fame came by raising $1 billion in junk bonds. Gilbert is a man whose vanity is exceeded only by his own pettiness and runs Quicken as if it were a rogue Scientology cult.