What is going on at Red Wings arena site?

[Dbest]

I'm with Tom Walsh on this: If the city wants folks to build, renovate, etc. time to start trusting one another and get things moving. A city proves itself when it minimizes red tape, delays, etc. [[and man, I hate when these common councils in cities can't agree and things drag on and on and folks just get frustrated and the air gets poisoned).

Sometimes folks need to see the 'big picture' and run with it.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...elay/25749763/

They have given Olympia house and home on this project, all they want is an assurance that the building stays. Why is that so hard for them? Show proof that these are really your plans.

This deal sets precedent for future developments in the city. If you like the fabric of old buildings downtown then you should commend what council is doing. This is how real cities operate, not by letting developers tear down anything and everything in their path. That was old Detroit, you know the one operating on a hope and prayer that some development would be a cure all. The mayor has a vision, I wouldn't be surprised if there is a Good Cop/Bad Cop scenario going on with the Council/Mayor in regards to their negotiations with Olympia.

Call me crazy but I think Duggan wants the assurance as much as Council...

As for the stadium development,its not going to get cancelled. i could see the Illitich team pulling out the threat card, something like threatening to pull some part of the development they never really intended on doing. illitch is pretty slimy. I can empathize with the critics of the whole development, look at all the promises for Copa that never came to fruition.

IMO The council has every reason to be skepical when the city has already been suckered on promises for the area around Copa.

[Scottathew]

I don't think council is crazy. The taxpayers have a lot of skin in the game, it's alright for Ilitch to do the same.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

Olympia consultant John Graves to council: “It’s just a matter of trust, whether you believe the developer on that promise" for Eddystone.

Apparently council is skeptical, rightfully so...

"Olympia can be trusted to follow through on the Eddystone renovations, consultant John Graves told the council"

And you can trust Lucy to hold the football for Charlie Brown. Honestly, this time she's really going to hold it....

"In a written statement Monday, an Ilitch spokesman said the company is committed to the project."

In other words, they are committed to the project; but they don't want to commit to it.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

I'm with Tom Walsh on this: If the city wants folks to build, renovate, etc. time to start trusting one another and get things moving. A city proves itself when it minimizes red tape, delays, etc. [[and man, I hate when these common councils in cities can't agree and things drag on and on and folks just get frustrated and the air gets poisoned).

Sometimes folks need to see the 'big picture' and run with it.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...elay/25749763/

I couldn't disagree more. If Olympia wants to restore the Eddystone as a trade off for tearing down the Park Avenue, then they damn well better actually commit in writing to doing so. A commitment to submit a PROPOSAL to renovate it with no obligation to follow through is totally meaningless. It would be easy to agree to this requirement if they are serious about restoring the Eddystone; if the entire project were to get delayed because of this it speaks volumes about their true intentions.

[animatedmartian]

I'm with Tom Walsh on this: If the city wants folks to build, renovate, etc. time to start trusting one another and get things moving. A city proves itself when it minimizes red tape, delays, etc. [[and man, I hate when these common councils in cities can't agree and things drag on and on and folks just get frustrated and the air gets poisoned).

Sometimes folks need to see the 'big picture' and run with it.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...elay/25749763/

It's Mike Illitch. He's not going anywhere because of some delayed red tape. If this were a developer actually out to preserve and renovate historic structures, the council wouldn't be as scrutinizing which actually seems worse when you think about it. There's plenty of historic properties that have fallen to the wayside because the City didn't hold the developers accountable.

[Mackinaw]

SHAME on Tom Walsh for that column, under the headline 'Is Council Going Back to Its Old Ways?' Unbelievable-- for anyone who has been paying attention, the Council is finally acting in a professional, not-haphazard way and finally showing due regard for such city-building ideas as preservation, not to mention at least a measure of skepticism towards Olympia's promises. They should be lauded, not scorned. Now, thanks to Walsh, a whole bunch of uninformed folks across the metro are going to be misguided as to the quality of Council's efforts here. F' him.

[mikeg19]

SHAME on Tom Walsh for that column, under the headline 'Is Council Going Back to Its Old Ways?' Unbelievable-- for anyone who has been paying attention, the Council is finally acting in a professional, not-haphazard way and finally showing due regard for such city-building ideas as preservation, not to mention at least a measure of skepticism towards Olympia's promises. They should be lauded, not scorned. Now, thanks to Walsh, a whole bunch of uninformed folks across the metro are going to be misguided as to the quality of Council's efforts here. F' him.

^
This, right here, spot on.

Council is actually acting the way it should.

[emu steve]

Actually, I believe the Council and the Ilitch come up with the best agreement possible by some 'drop dead' date.

If it is a full contract, MoU [[Memorandum of Understanding), etc. or whatever, at the time of the deadline, fine.

And I really, really disagree with this approach: "He's not going anywhere because of some delayed red tape."

That is not a business-friendly approach [[and yes, Ilitch is a business man. Does matter if he is selling pizzas or entertainment).

I don't think Detroit can play hardball with any developers, regardless of the public contributions, tax write offs, etc.

P.S. were we posting on Brush Park three years ago? The momentum is building. Do not cause unnecessary drama.

[Mackinaw]

On the whole I am not worried about the business environment in Detroit vis-a-vis red tape. I am not aware of all of our other redevelopers complaining about red tape. Not Gilbert, not the Whitney redevelopers, not Mr. Cohen of DuCharme Place and other projects [[who said the City government is a pleasure to deal with), and not smaller developers and entrepreneurs who are going on and on about how Detroit is basically the ultimate business climate because costs are low and city government is deferential-- open to any new business.

So yeah, perhaps Illitch is getting an ounce of red tape because he's Illitch, and has duped us before, not because our council is hostile to development.

[animatedmartian]

Actually, I believe the Council and the Ilitch come up with the best agreement possible by some 'drop dead' date.

If it is a full contract, MoU [[Memorandum of Understanding), etc. or whatever, at the time of the deadline, fine.

And I really, really disagree with this approach: "He's not going anywhere because of some delayed red tape."

That is not a business-friendly approach [[and yes, Ilitch is a business man. Does matter if he is selling pizzas or entertainment).

I don't think Detroit can play hardball with any developers, regardless of the public contributions, tax write offs, etc.

P.S. were we posting on Brush Park three years ago? The momentum is building. Do not cause unnecessary drama.

Ilitch can't up and move the arena to the suburbs just because of the city. Especially when he claims to be so committed to the city and dirt is already being moved around. The worst Ilitch can do if the city plays hardball is maybe hire only 40% Detroit workers instead of 50% or whatever. Everything else is pretty much in his favor.

[Mackinaw]

http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/e...rena/25779535/

Great Freep editorial bitch-slapping Walsh's point and calling to mind the spotty track record of Olympia.

[Buttons]

Ilitch can't up and move the arena to the suburbs just because of the city. Especially when he claims to be so committed to the city and dirt is already being moved around. The worst Ilitch can do if the city plays hardball is maybe hire only 40% Detroit workers instead of 50% or whatever. Everything else is pretty much in his favor.

Illitch can up and move the team to the Palace. It can't be any worse than Joe Louis. I can't believe one building is going to hold this project up. Nobody else is going to develop that building any time soon.

[Dan_the_man]

Illitch can up and move the team to the Palace. It can't be any worse than Joe Louis. I can't believe one building is going to hold this project up. Nobody else is going to develop that building any time soon.

If Illitch was willing to sell, I bet it would get redeveloped, even if the arena weren't going to be there. It's close enough to downtown and Midtown that development would reach there in a few years anyways. There aren't many big buildings left. This one would get fixed.

[emu steve]

If Illitch was willing to sell, I bet it would get redeveloped, even if the arena weren't going to be there. It's close enough to downtown and Midtown that development would reach there in a few years anyways. There aren't many big buildings left. This one would get fixed.

Wow, do I disagree with you.

The old sports-facilities-doesn't-cause-development [[i.e., they'd happen anyways, but would any of us still be alive????).

That area was dead, dead, dead.

East of Woodward was dead, dead, dead.

All of a sudden west of Woodward is alive and folks fighting over what will or will not go where.

And all of a sudden EAST of Woodward is alive and I read plans for multiple nice housing projects, maybe a hotel [[across from FF), renovated Brewster Wheeler, etc.

Where was all of this THREE years ago? Why now? Why not then?

Might it not just be the new arena and M-1 which has defined the area [[the arena helps define the 'entertainment' [[and commercial) part of the area West of Woodward, and East of Woodward seems to be defined as a coming residential area.

[Buttons]

If Illitch was willing to sell, I bet it would get redeveloped, even if the arena weren't going to be there. It's close enough to downtown and Midtown that development would reach there in a few years anyways. There aren't many big buildings left. This one would get fixed.

The Park Avenue hotel is isolated and disconnected from Midtown and Downtown. If the arena project goes as planned, it seems like a great way to bridge the gap between the two neighborhoods. On its own, I just don't see anyone wanting to renovate the Park in such a desolate area. I do think Illitch has leverage because the Palace is a fine building. I'm sure he would also win in the court of public opinion and can make it look like council forced him out of Detroit. For the record, I agree with council in making sure there are guarantees. I don't think he should be forced to renovate both the Eddystone and Park.

[Gistok]

Wow, do I disagree with you.

The old sports-facilities-doesn't-cause-development [[i.e., they'd happen anyways, but would any of us still be alive????).

That area was dead, dead, dead.

East of Woodward was dead, dead, dead.

All of a sudden west of Woodward is alive and folks fighting over what will or will not go where.

And all of a sudden EAST of Woodward is alive and I read plans for multiple nice housing projects, maybe a hotel [[across from FF), renovated Brewster Wheeler, etc.

Where was all of this THREE years ago? Why now? Why not then?

Might it not just be the new arena and M-1 which has defined the area [[the arena helps define the 'entertainment' [[and commercial) part of the area West of Woodward, and East of Woodward seems to be defined as a coming residential area.

Hey emu_steve... who's fighting over this?

http://detroitfunk.com/fine-arts-building-2009/

The surviving Fine Arts facade has sat there like that for 6 years....

Meanwhile the Broderick across the street is back online, the Whitney is online... but the Fine Arts Facade, the UA complex, the Blenheim Apartments and the Detroit Life Buildings are all moldering away unrestored.

The GAR Building was on their list, but the Ilitch's procrastinated and it went back to the city and now is being lovingly restored by other who seem to give a rats ass about fixing old buildings.

Who wants to see the Eddystone as another building on the Ilitch Holding's "to do" list?? Isn't that list getting a bit long even for you?

[masterblaster]

[QUOTE=Buttons;476239]The Park Avenue hotel is isolated and disconnected from Midtown and Downtown.[QUOTE]

The Park Avenue hotel is in the Midtown neighborhood. The Masonic Temple, Cass Park, the former Kresge Headquarters, Cass Tech, and the Temple Bar are all within 2 blocks of these hotels. Are all of those buildings disconnected from Midtown? No they are right smack in it.

Also, the area looks so bad and desolate because Ilitch acquired and has held on to so many of the structures and vacant property in that area for many years in his quest to acquire land to get another hockey arena built. That is why the area of downtown northwest of Grand Circus Park is so desolate and undeveloped as well.

[Buttons]

[QUOTE=masterblaster;476243][QUOTE=Buttons;476239]The Park Avenue hotel is isolated and disconnected from Midtown and Downtown.

The Park Avenue hotel is in the Midtown neighborhood. The Masonic Temple, Cass Park, the former Kresge Headquarters, Cass Tech, and the Temple Bar are all within 2 blocks of these hotels. Are all of those buildings disconnected from Midtown? No they are right smack in it.

Also, the area looks so bad and desolate because Ilitch acquired and has held on to so many of the structures and vacant property in that area for many years in his quest to acquire land to get another hockey arena built. That is why the area of downtown northwest of Grand Circus Park is so desolate and undeveloped as well.

I consider Midtown as usually MLK north but I will concede that the Cass Corridor is Midtown. I don't see the Temple bar as being enough to draw in developers. We then have a high school, a run down park, a theater on the brink of closer, and a former corporate headquarters. There's a lot of the Cass Corridor that isn't owned by Illitch that hasn't been developed. Illitch also bought some of this land recently which sat vacant for awhile

[gvidas]

From the "the ghost of Lee Harvey Oswold is not coming back to fire an RPG from the Park Ave Hotel" dept, Bruce Schneier on the uselessness of metal detectors at MLB stadiums:

In reality, this is CYA security, and it's pervasive in post-9/11 America. It no longer matters if a security measure makes sense, if it's cost-effective or if it mitigates any actual threats. All that matters is that you took the threat seriously, so if something happens you won't be blamed for inaction. It's security, all right -- security for the careers of those in charge.

I'm not saying that these officials care only about their jobs and not at all about preventing terrorism, only that their priorities are skewed. They imagine vague threats, and come up with correspondingly vague security measures intended to address them. They experience none of the costs. They're not the ones who have to deal with the long lines and confusion at the gates. They're not the ones who have to arrive early to avoid the messes the new policies have caused around the league. And if fans spend more money at the concession stands because they've arrived an hour early and have had the food and drinks they tried to bring along confiscated, so much the better, from the team owners' point of view.

I can hear the objections to this as I write. You don't know these measures won't be effective! What if something happens? Don't we have to do everything possible to protect ourselves against terrorism?
That's worst-case thinking, and it's dangerous. It leads to bad decisions, bad design and bad security. A better approach is to realistically assess the threats, judge security measures on their effectiveness and take their costs into account. And the result of that calm, rational look will be the realization that there will always be places where we pack ourselves densely together, and that we should spend less time trying to secure those places and more time finding terrorist plots before they can be carried out.

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archiv...detectors.html

[erikd]

Actually, I believe the Council and the Ilitch come up with the best agreement possible by some 'drop dead' date.

If it is a full contract, MoU [[Memorandum of Understanding), etc. or whatever, at the time of the deadline, fine.

And I really, really disagree with this approach: "He's not going anywhere because of some delayed red tape."

That is not a business-friendly approach [[and yes, Ilitch is a business man. Does matter if he is selling pizzas or entertainment).

I don't think Detroit can play hardball with any developers, regardless of the public contributions, tax write offs, etc.

P.S. were we posting on Brush Park three years ago? The momentum is building. Do not cause unnecessary drama.

This assertion is completely ridiculous and nonsensical.

Ilitch is being given hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars to build his new hockey arena, largely based on his vague promises to develop the land around the new arena. He has everybody excited about his promises and proposals, but refuses to commit to any of his promises in writing.

We have seen Ilitch play this game of promising spin-off development numerous times over the last few decades, and he NEVER fulfills his promises, no matter how many millions we blindly hand to him in the hopes that he will honor his word.

Getting swindled by a billionaire is not a "business-friendly approach." Requiring a billionaire welfare recipient to sign a contract in exchange for hundreds of millions of tax dollars is not "playing hardball." It should be a red flag when Ilitch doesn't want to sign a contract that commits him to fulfill his grand public promises in exchange for a quarter billion in taxpayer welfare.

I don't want to see the Red Wings leave Detroit, but if Ilitch isn't willing to sign a contract to commit to just a few of his grand promises, in exchange for hundreds of millions in taxpayer welfare, it seems pretty clear that he doesn't intend to follow through.

If we need to give away hundreds of millions to a billionaire in order to keep our hockey team in Detroit, maybe it isn't worth it. The lower Cass Corridor will be very attractive to developers, with or without a new hockey arena. The Ilitch parking lot wasteland behind the Fox Theater is notable for its lack of investment while the rest of downtown has been booming.

The economic studies of public investment in pro sports stadia are widely in agreement that they are a bad investment and poor use of tax dollars. If the city council request for Ilitch to sign a contract committing to his promises is a deal breaker, we are better off by it not happening.

If Ilitch isn't willing to stand by his word and honor his promises, he can go fuck off to Oakland County, or Oakland California, and swindle their taxpayers.

[warsaw7]

If Ilitch isn't willing to stand by his word and honor his promises, he can go fuck off to Oakland County, or Oakland California, and swindle their taxpayers.

You made my day!

[emu steve]

This assertion is completely ridiculous and nonsensical.

Ilitch is being given hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars to build his new hockey arena, largely based on his vague promises to develop the land around the new arena. He has everybody excited about his promises and proposals, but refuses to commit to any of his promises in writing.

We have seen Ilitch play this game of promising spin-off development numerous times over the last few decades, and he NEVER fulfills his promises, no matter how many millions we blindly hand to him in the hopes that he will honor his word.

Getting swindled by a billionaire is not a "business-friendly approach." Requiring a billionaire welfare recipient to sign a contract in exchange for hundreds of millions of tax dollars is not "playing hardball." It should be a red flag when Ilitch doesn't want to sign a contract that commits him to fulfill his grand public promises in exchange for a quarter billion in taxpayer welfare.

I don't want to see the Red Wings leave Detroit, but if Ilitch isn't willing to sign a contract to commit to just a few of his grand promises, in exchange for hundreds of millions in taxpayer welfare, it seems pretty clear that he doesn't intend to follow through.

If we need to give away hundreds of millions to a billionaire in order to keep our hockey team in Detroit, maybe it isn't worth it. The lower Cass Corridor will be very attractive to developers, with or without a new hockey arena. The Ilitch parking lot wasteland behind the Fox Theater is notable for its lack of investment while the rest of downtown has been booming.

The economic studies of public investment in pro sports stadia are widely in agreement that they are a bad investment and poor use of tax dollars. If the city council request for Ilitch to sign a contract committing to his promises is a deal breaker, we are better off by it not happening.

If Ilitch isn't willing to stand by his word and honor his promises, he can go fuck off to Oakland County, or Oakland California, and swindle their taxpayers.

I think many of your assertions are way, way off.

Are you suggesting that the Ilitches AREN'T going through zoning, permitting, etc. etc. for the arena and the other buildings, e.g., parking deck, team buildings, residential buildings on the arena site? OR are you talking about ONE building [[an abandoned hotel)?

If this project [[the two shuttered hotels) could be compared to a dog or a horse, some are talking about the tail, the least important part of the animal.

************

As far as the what the community gets back from their $ for sports facilities.

Once again, it is the aggregate which is reported in these studies. Some projects have big payoffs. Some made no sense [[e.g., FedEx Field in suburban D.C.) and quite frankly one could see it from day one. Many of these were dumped into suburbia to get them out of the city and there was NOT any plan to use them as a catalyst for urban development. They were DESIGNED [[stupidly) as a place where suburbanites drove to, parked, watched and drove home. Man, I can remember the arena built in early 70s in Richfield, Ohio [[think it was 25 miles from Cleveland and near NOTHING).

If that is what you want, then one should not expect anything greater.

This project seems to have as great a payoff as any sports facility I've seen with the exemption of Nationals Park and Verizon Center, both in D.C., where a sports facility attracts development money. I watched as the Nationals Park was approved by the D.C. council how bidding contests developed for real estate from the stadium site to the SE Expressway.

Surprisingly, if one gets off this forum and into the 'real world' [[this forum is NOT a true representation of the Metro Detroit area. It is a very skewed 'sample', heavily weighted toward certain interests, e.g., historic preservation.), one will find very, very different opinions.

Just talk to the business and political leaders. As best I can tell, this arena has the wholehearted support of the most influential business leaders and politicians [[e.g., the mayor, the governor, etc.).

Does anyone here doubt the wisdom of Dan Gilbert? Would anyone say "I'm right and Dan is wrong. He doesn't know anything about sports facilities and real estate development"?

[ghettopalmetto]

As far as the what the community gets back from their $ for sports facilities.

Many of these were dumped into suburbia to get them out of the city and there was NOT any plan to use them as a catalyst for urban development. They were DESIGNED [[stupidly) as a place where suburbanites drove to, parked, watched and drove home. Man, I can remember the arena built in early 70s in Richfield, Ohio [[think it was 25 miles from Cleveland and near NOTHING).

If that is what you want, then one should not expect anything greater.

And you expect that Ilitch's new ice palace *will* somehow be greater? There's nothing to indicate that it will be little more than "a place where suburbanites drive to, park, watch, and drive home".

Since you mentioned Cleveland, it's worth noting that the blocks surrounding Quicken Loans Arena are some of the quietest in all of downtown, save for the hours before and after a game. Sure, there's a new high-rise that will be constructed across the street, but the 21-year-old arena was not the cause of that. There are many livelier parts of downtown Cleveland that don't have any sporting arenas, and didn't cost nearly as much in taxpayer dollars.

[Scottathew]

...If Ilitch isn't willing to stand by his word and honor his promises, he can go fuck off to Oakland County, or Oakland California, and swindle their taxpayers.

ErikD sums up my feelings about Ilitch. He's better than Matty, but he's done so little for Detroit when it comes to real estate. He's great at parking lots and tax payer subsidized stuff.

[Scottathew]

Does anyone here doubt the wisdom of Dan Gilbert? Would anyone say "I'm right and Dan is wrong. He doesn't know anything about sports facilities and real estate development"?

Dan speaks via action.

Ilitch speaks via promises. Simply put, we don't trust him. He says he's going to do something, we ask him to put it into writing, and he refuses.