What is going on at Red Wings arena site?

**EGrant** · January-21-19, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by SammyS

Numbers do not include sporting events
https://www.crainsdetroit.com/entert...ed-arena-world

I stand corrected!

**401don** · January-21-19, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

If the arena want sell out crowds as the Palace had there need to be arrangments made for free parking or shuttle busses that will pick up fans at park in ride participating parking lots throughout the city and nearby suburbs to the arena itself. I think that the issue is parking. The meters are too expensive and who want to park at a meter or zone then have to get up in the middle of the game to feed the meter so that you wont end up with an expensive ticket. I think that the Illitiches should invest in shuttle busses that would take fans from a certain pickup point to the arena. You will see an increase in attendance.

If you think parking is the reason for the attendance problems with the Wings or Pistons you really don't follow sports do you? And actually the Ilitches do offer a free shuttle service to all games. It's from -surprise! - MotorCity Casino.

**Bham1982** · January-21-19, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by 401don

If you think parking is the reason for the attendance problems with the Wings or Pistons you really don't follow sports do you?

I think parking plays a role, albeit minor. It's a PITA for the target audience to go to LCA on weeknights.

I know no one wants to hear this on DYes, but downtown is far from the region's wealth centers, and a major hassle outside of weekends. The Palace, for all its faults, had easy parking and was 20 minutes from the state's wealth center.

Also, remember when the claim was that the Pistons would have better attendance if they moved downtown? LCA is emptier than the Palace in its worst years. They're selling an OK number of tickets, but people aren't showing up on weeknights. The Palace led the NBA in attendance for years.

**401don** · January-21-19, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I think parking plays a role, albeit minor. It's a PITA for the target audience to go to LCA on weeknights.

I know no one wants to hear this on DYes, but downtown is far from the region's wealth centers, and a major hassle outside of weekends. The Palace, for all its faults, had easy parking and was 20 minutes from the state's wealth center.

Also, remember when the claim was that the Pistons would have better attendance if they moved downtown? LCA is emptier than the Palace in its worst years. They're selling an OK number of tickets, but people aren't showing up on weeknights. The Palace led the NBA in attendance for years.

I have to say I'm stunned how few African Americans show up at LCA. I wasn't expecting them to fill the place, especially for a lousy team, but the crowd is as white as at the Palace. Maybe it's because the Pistons don't have any flashy individual stars that you would pay to see play, a Kawhi Leonard, James Harden, type.

**Bham1982** · January-21-19, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by 401don

I have to say I'm stunned how few African Americans show up at LCA. I wasn't expecting them to fill the place, especially for a lousy team, but the crowd is as white as at the Palace. Maybe it's because the Pistons don't have any flashy individual stars that you would pay to see play, a Kawhi Leonard, James Harden, type.

Do people think that because Detroit is a [[mostly) black city, that the Pistons would get more black fans in Detroit?

The NBA is pretty popular across races. I don't think just because most players are black that blacks are disproportionately fans. The NBA draws very well in white metros like Portland and Bay Area, and very poorly in black metros like New Orleans and Memphis.

Wealth, rather than race, is probably more important. The region's high-net worth households, overwhelmingly, don't live anywhere near downtown. Weekends are doable but how are you gonna do a Tuesday night game with little kids?

I also doubt most of the region's black wealth resides within city limits anymore. An upper class black household in, say, West Bloomfield [[and there are a ton of them in WB these days) has a much longer drive to LCA.

**401don** · January-21-19, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Do people think that because Detroit is a [[mostly) black city, that the Pistons would get more black fans in Detroit?

The NBA is pretty popular across races. I don't think just because most players are black that blacks are disproportionately fans. The NBA draws very well in white metros like Portland and Bay Area, and very poorly in black metros like New Orleans and Memphis.

Wealth, rather than race, is probably more important. The region's high-net worth households, overwhelmingly, don't live anywhere near downtown. Weekends are doable but how are you gonna do a Tuesday night game with little kids?

I also doubt most of the region's black wealth resides within city limits anymore. An upper class black household in, say, West Bloomfield [[and there are a ton of them in WB these days) has a much longer drive to LCA.

I didn't expect a "disproportionate" number of black fans when they moved downtown but I expected an additional 1500-2000 per game. I used to hear how many blue collar blacks living in the city didn't have transportation to get to the Palace. The Pistons even started a shuttle bus a few years ago. It would be the same if 700,000 whites or hispanics lived in the city. I would expect some of them to go to the games but I don't think that's happening. Even the millennials & Wayne State students don't appear to be attending like the increase I've seen at Tigers games the last few years.

**Marc313** · January-21-19, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by EGrant

I stand corrected!

District Detroit video on the Detroit Life Building

http://www.districtdetroit.com/video...life-building/

**EGrant** · January-21-19, 11:34 PM

I went to most games at The Palace in the last 5 years the Pistons played in Auburn Hills and it was absolutely not more full than the LCA. For all the fuss people in make about how the Pistons fanbase is allegedly in northern Oakland County, where were ya'll? The place was sparse on a nearly nightly basis, tickets were half as cheap and parking was plentiful.

The LCA is struggling with Pistons attendance, but it has been comparable at worst to The Palace. It also is a more diverse crowd than The Palace, but then again, I'm not doing an exact headcount like others apparently are.

I think the biggest deterrents are the overall price and team success. It's just too much money for people of all races to spend on a ticket to see a struggling team with no hope for the future, despite Blake Griffin's career season. Detroit fans only support a winner [[unless it's the Lions).

**SpartanDawg** · January-22-19, 01:53 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I think parking plays a role, albeit minor. It's a PITA for the target audience to go to LCA on weeknights.

I know no one wants to hear this on DYes, but downtown is far from the region's wealth centers, and a major hassle outside of weekends. The Palace, for all its faults, had easy parking and was 20 minutes from the state's wealth center.

Also, remember when the claim was that the Pistons would have better attendance if they moved downtown? LCA is emptier than the Palace in its worst years. They're selling an OK number of tickets, but people aren't showing up on weeknights. The Palace led the NBA in attendance for years.

This was during a stretch where the pistons won an NBA title, and went to something like 8 straight conference finals in the playoffs and had 4-5 players in the all star game each year. It was the second greatest era of detroit basketball, arguably one game 7 away from the greatest stretch of pistons basketball ever. yes. they obviously were going to sell the arena out.

bad product = bad attendance. that is the absolute 100% biggest factor that will drive attendance year in and year out. we simply don't have anybody to get excited about. detroit sports are a complete joke right now across the board unfortunately.

**ParisianLesion** · January-22-19, 10:40 AM

[QUOTE=Bham1982;564198]I think parking plays a role, albeit minor. It's a PITA for the target audience to go to LCA on weeknights.

I know no one wants to hear this on DYes, but downtown is far from the region's wealth centers, and a major hassle outside of weekends. The Palace, for all its faults, had easy parking and was 20 minutes from the state's wealth center.

I would counter that Downtown is also only 20 minutes from the state's wealth center, just in the opposite direction. As far as parking, I don't know space-for-space, but there is ample parking downtown around the arena. In fact, with all of Illitch's surface lots, it's practically the same set up at the same price point. Of course, if you know you're way around downtown even a little, you avoid those lots and park for much cheaper... something that wasn't even an option at the Palace.

All that being said, it seems more than obvious that its the lack of good product that is keeping the seats empty. It's no different for the Tigers or Wings. They are both downtown, when the team is strong, all sellouts. When they stink, empty seats.

**Towne Cluber** · January-22-19, 10:55 AM

To me, Pistons games at LCA don’t seem any more or less diverse than at the Palace. Increased Detroit resident attendance was one of the supposed selling points but Detroiters also like to talk a big game.

**Bham1982** · January-22-19, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by ParisianLesion

I would counter that Downtown is also only 20 minutes from the state's wealth center, just in the opposite direction.

Downtown isn't 20 minutes from Bloomfield. Bill Davidson built the Palace in that location so Bloomfield executives would have an easy visit. Those were his neighbors.

On weeknights, when these games are played [[concurrent with rush hour) it's basically an hour one-way. That means an extra 40 minutes each way, which obviously infringes on family time and could make for angry spouse.

On weekends, I think downtown is at an advantage, because there's more "stuff", esp. more dining, and you can integrate a game with a broader outing. But I do think that weekdays are a tough fill for the pricey seats, unless the team is really good.

I wonder if they could split the games. Palace on weeknights and LCA on weekends.

**EGrant** · February-26-19, 07:04 AM

Detroit City Council is asking Olympia for updates on the many promised "spin-off" developments.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Detroit/com...etroit_status/

Walked by there yesterday morning and the plastic wrap on two of the unfinished buildings is tearing; maybe they can include that in their response and spin it as revitalizing Detroit's plastic-making economy.

**Zads07** · March-03-19, 01:25 PM

https://www.crainsdetroit.com/real-e...sK0dnyC0JNzssI

Crain's with a huge piece on the lack of promises fulfilled. This is the kind of journalism that is needed to hold Olympia accountable.

**Atticus** · March-03-19, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by Zads07

https://www.crainsdetroit.com/real-e...sK0dnyC0JNzssI

Crain's with a huge piece on the lack of promises fulfilled. This is the kind of journalism that is needed to hold Olympia accountable.

Crains does a great job, both on this and with their journalism in general.

As poorly ran and sensationalistic as the Freep and DetNews can be, it is a real shame that those papers have a larger audience than Crains.

But back on topic, I really do appreciate the effort that Crains put forth in writing a fair and accurate portrayal of this issue.

**MSUguy** · March-03-19, 09:40 PM

That's a real shocker...

"Two sources familiar with Olympia operations speaking on the condition of anonymity said Olympia’s decision matrix on whether a building should be torn down come to whether the property will be more profitable as parking or if it’s redeveloped. “Ninety-nine out of 100 times,” one source said, Olympia chooses parking."

**EGrant** · May-23-19, 06:14 AM

Yesterday, Chris Ilitch did a little media tour.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/bu...ts/3766528002/

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...wn/2636965002/

https://www.crainsdetroit.com/real-e...-be-aggressive

He basically blamed a bad relationship with a developer, blamed the city for why he built so many parking lots and made some new promises. Rinse repeat.

**mikeg19** · May-23-19, 10:38 AM

So you lied to sell the plan, you got your tax breaks, you got your parking lots, you got your cash cow sitting on Woodward, and the best you could do is "Our timelines were aggressive"???

It's been 5 Fuc**** years man. Gilbert is gonna have a 900ft tower in the sky before you have the Eddystone occupied.

Nobody wants to hear about your "upcoming announcements" because they will be the same as before. Empty promises paved over for parking lots.

**Zads07** · May-23-19, 11:42 AM

I'll say this, the Detroit News piece was incredible and in-depth. Aguilar did a fantastic job.

The Free Press was just blah and I'm not surprised, because although Gallagher is more firm on Ilitch, in the past he hasn't been.

Crain's was good, but not as in depth as the News.

But back to the substance, Ilitch had a cop-out excuse. He didn't take ownership, he blamed it on others and yet, still has the balls to say they are invested in the community. I call shenanigans.

**bust** · May-24-19, 02:47 PM

It looks like the local papers are FINALLY starting to handle this with the attention and perspective that it deserves. Or at least the News is. That article was well written.

The Ilitch family's abuse of property and destruction of vast swaths of the city must be held to account. Local media's long failure to do so has been a crying shame.

**SammyS** · May-26-19, 04:31 PM

Slightly off topic but does anyone know what’s happening with the empty lot on 2870 Woodward where the burned down First Unitarian Church used to stand? It’s prime and pissing me off that it remains vacant.

**Hypestyles** · May-29-19, 07:03 AM

Nolan Finley article on Olympia Enterprises:

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/op...es/1207178001/

excerpt:

Detroit's leaders keep making excuses for the Ilitches, and keep giving them money. Earlier this month, the Downtown Development Authority awarded them a $74 million bonus on the ludicrous basis that they'd fulfilled the promises made in exchange for $334 million in public financing for the arena.
Now, the Ilitches are asking from even more money to convert the Eddystone Building in the Cass Corridor into affordable housing units.
Cut them off. Detroit should not give the family another dime of taxpayer money, nor should it approve of their obtaining another piece of land.
Further, attempts should be made to claw back property the city sold or gave to the Ilitches that has not been used for the intended public purpose.
And Detroit should use building codes and tax assessments to make it extremely uncomfortable for the Ilitches to hang on to the many buildings they own that are either vacant or deteriorating.
The wide swath of land the Ilitches control sits in one of the hottest development corridors in the nation. Eight billion investment dollars are pouring into the Woodward strip between downtown and New Center.
Too much of it is being hoarded by the Ilitches, who have proven themselves to be speculators and slumlords.

**401don** · May-29-19, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by Hypestyles

Nolan Finley article on Olympia Enterprises:

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/op...es/1207178001/

excerpt:

What took so long for Finley to jump on the bandwagon? He's supposed to be the News main Business columnist. There wasn't a peep from him about Ilitch until other articles started appearing a couple of months ago and now we've had about 4 columns in the last month.

**mikeg19** · May-29-19, 07:51 AM

Finley roasting the Illitch family this morning. I wonder why all of a sudden the hit pieces, long overdue, are coming fast and furious?

**Zads07** · May-29-19, 08:29 AM

Let's not forget that Nolan was writing columns about how he didn't like City Council delaying a vote because it would hurt the progress of the District Detroit.

When presented with facts, and a lot of that has become more common know with the HBO doc and Louis Aguilar's long, enterprise piece in his own newspaper, it appears he's changed his course.

No need to criticize him for making his own decisions and opinions on changing his mind upon learning of the facts. I think that's becoming less common in our society so it's great to see this change.

Who knows if the piece will actually spur anything, but it's great to see it being written.