Brush Street Station

[Dexlin]

I have some questions about the old Brush Street Station [[Franklin Street Station), an old passenger rail station that stood where the RenCen stands, today. There is one good Hall of Fame thread I looked up here, and mentions across the forum history, but I had some additional questions about this old terminal, and thought I'd pick your brains to see if you might now the answers.

- I've been able to find mention of a deadly fire that destroyed the first Brush Street Station at this site in 1866 [[though, I'm not sure when this station was built, either), but when was the second more "modern" station built? You know, the one that lasted until the RenCen was constructed? Was it built soon after the fire?

- When did Grand Trunk Western Railroad take over operations of the depot and lines to it? I guess this also brings the question of who were the original owners and operators of the first before GTW took over? I see that GTW was formed in 1928, so this station most likely existed decades before GTW was even a thought.

- Finally, while it's pretty clear from old pictures where the long-time station was located, where was the Brush Street Station stop located, exactly, in between the completion of the RenCen and the end of commuter rail service in 1983? The construction of the RenCen would have pushed the commuter stop at least a block to the east, so the stop had to be at least as far east along Franklin Street as Beaubien. How many platforms did the new stop have, and were there any canopies, or was this just an open area? Perhaps there are some old maps from the late 70's/early 80's showing this "new" Brush Street Stations.

1962:



1950's



Some more from various years prior:





BTW, what's the big white elevator and warehouse that loomed over the station?

[mtburb]

- Finally, while it's pretty clear from old pictures where the long-time station was located, where was the Brush Street Station stop located, exactly, in between the completion of the RenCen and the end of commuter rail service in 1983? The construction of the RenCen would have pushed the commuter stop at least a block to the east, so the stop had to be at least as far east along Franklin Street as Beaubien. How many platforms did the new stop have, and were there any canopies, or was this just an open area? Perhaps there are some old maps from the late 70's/early 80's showing this "new" Brush Street Stations.

BTW, what's the big white elevator and warehouse that loomed over the station?

First question: Franklin and Saint Antoine.
Second question: the Robin Hood Flour Mill.

[Dexlin]

Thanks. Franklin and St. Antoine would have placed the RenCen stop right where the giant surface lot is, today, then. It appears there were some existing GTW buildings at the site when the stop was put there, maybe a freight shed/warehouse; the tracks would have been mid-block. In fact, you can see Franklin and St. Antoine in this picture on the lower right, I believe:



I'm still going to see if I can find some [[expansive) shots of the site from when after the RenCen was completed.

[Zacha341]

^^^ Awesome. I was trying to figure out precisely where the Ren Cen fit in - and replaced.

[Dexlin]

Okay, should have thought of this. Went to WSU Virtual Motor City collection and found these, though, I'm still looking for something a bit elevated above the site to see the layout of the "station" and it's tracks:







So, it looks like the post RenCen Brush/Franklin Street Station had at least four lines and two islands platforms, and maybe one side platform closest Franklin. It'd be really good to see higher view of the site to see what was still around.

[dtowncitylover]

Can you please stop it? I'm getting a bit frustrated to see what we had and then what we did with it.

Thanks for the pictures and the info, love our local transportation history. Just wish it wasn't history...

[Hermod]

When did Grand Trunk Western Railroad take over operations of the depot and lines to it? I guess this also brings the question of who were the original owners and operators of the first before GTW took over? I see that GTW was formed in 1928, so this station most likely existed decades before GTW was even a thought.

May 9, 1928, the Grand Trunk Western Railroad Company was formed to consolidate the following railroads:

Grand Trunk Western Railway [[formed 1900 to consolidate the Port Huron to Chicago route)
Toledo, Saginaw, & Muskegeon
Pontiac, Oxford, & Northern
Chicago, Detroit, & Canada Grand Junction
Michigan Air Line Railway
Chicago & Kalamazoo Terminal
Grand Rapids Terminal
Bay City Terminal
Detroit, Grand Haven, & Milwaukee
Detroit and Huron

The lines affecting Detroit which were a part of Grand Trunk were the Detroit & Pontiac [[1834) completed to Pontiac in 1843 which merged with the Oakland and Ottawa in 1855 to form the Detroit and Milwaukee [[line to Grand Haven and train ferry to Milwaukee completed in 1858). The e other line affecting Detroit was the Fort Gratiot [[Port Huron) to Detroit line completed by the Grand Trunk system in 1859. Since this line was complete totally under Grand Trunk corporate cover, it has no separate name or corporate history.

[Dexlin]

Can you please stop it? I'm getting a bit frustrated to see what we had and then what we did with it.

Thanks for the pictures and the info, love our local transportation history. Just wish it wasn't history...

Do not dispair. lol Are we going to see three large intercity rail stations downtown like back in the old days? No. But, transit alternatives are now actually slowly but surely marching forward unlike in recent years and decades past. You've got unsexy construction like the rebuilding of West Detroit Junction west of Michigan Central Station under reconstruction that will cut relieve a freight and Amtrak bottleneck that will also serve to make any future services like the Ann Arbor-Detroit commuter/regional rail viable. You've got an active study studying the viability of a rail service between Detroit and Holland via Grand Rapids [["Coast-to-Coast") You've got MDOT actively in the process of finding funding for a new intermodal passenger station across the tracks from the current Amtrak station. You've got M-1 Rail, which will tie this station more solidly to downtown than current local bus service. You have the RTA spending this year getting ready to campaign for transit funding for the new Woodward BRT [[bus rapid transit) line, which is in the process of being engineered since the locally preferred alternative was chosen two months ago. You have what will likely be, next month, the decision to reconstruct I-375 was a surface street...

There is much going on, a lot of it which will set the stage for larger things down the road should we want them. The thing is that there was much even just ten years ago we couldn't have even considered because the basics weren't in place. Now, we're finally nailing down the basics.

[dtowncitylover]

Do not dispair. lol Are we going to see three large intercity rail stations downtown like back in the old days? No. But, transit alternatives are now actually slowly but surely marching forward unlike in recent years and decades past. You've got unsexy construction like the rebuilding of West Detroit Junction west of Michigan Central Station under reconstruction that will cut relieve a freight and Amtrak bottleneck that will also serve to make any future services like the Ann Arbor-Detroit commuter/regional rail viable. You've got an active study studying the viability of a rail service between Detroit and Holland via Grand Rapids [["Coast-to-Coast") You've got MDOT actively in the process of finding funding for a new intermodal passenger station across the tracks from the current Amtrak station. You've got M-1 Rail, which will tie this station more solidly to downtown than current local bus service. You have the RTA spending this year getting ready to campaign for transit funding for the new Woodward BRT [[bus rapid transit) line, which is in the process of being engineered since the locally preferred alternative was chosen two months ago. You have what will likely be, next month, the decision to reconstruct I-375 was a surface street...

There is much going on, a lot of it which will set the stage for larger things down the road should we want them. The thing is that there was much even just ten years ago we couldn't have even considered because the basics weren't in place. Now, we're finally nailing down the basics.

Haha, thank you for the reassurance. Coast to Coast is a really exciting project.

[professorscott]

Do not dispair. lol Are we going to see three large intercity rail stations downtown like back in the old days? No. But, transit alternatives are now actually slowly but surely marching forward unlike in recent years and decades past. You've got unsexy construction like the rebuilding of West Detroit Junction west of Michigan Central Station under reconstruction that will cut relieve a freight and Amtrak bottleneck that will also serve to make any future services like the Ann Arbor-Detroit commuter/regional rail viable. You've got an active study studying the viability of a rail service between Detroit and Holland via Grand Rapids [["Coast-to-Coast") You've got MDOT actively in the process of finding funding for a new intermodal passenger station across the tracks from the current Amtrak station. You've got M-1 Rail, which will tie this station more solidly to downtown than current local bus service. You have the RTA spending this year getting ready to campaign for transit funding for the new Woodward BRT [[bus rapid transit) line, which is in the process of being engineered since the locally preferred alternative was chosen two months ago. You have what will likely be, next month, the decision to reconstruct I-375 was a surface street...

There is much going on, a lot of it which will set the stage for larger things down the road should we want them. The thing is that there was much even just ten years ago we couldn't have even considered because the basics weren't in place. Now, we're finally nailing down the basics.

I find it fascinating that very little credit has been given to people without whom much of that which you describe would flatly not have happened. SEMCOG in particular has provided both leadership and staff support without which all of this would have been difficult to imagine. John Hertel, who for some reason is a flashpoint for certain transit advocates, was an absolute giant in the development of both M1 Rail - it absolutely would not have happened without him - and the development of the much-maligned 2008 transit service plan which makes it possible for us to be competitive for Federal money for BRT. Gov. Snyder had to do some old-fashioned Lyndon Johnson style arm-twisting to get the enabling laws for the RTA passed, without which any kind of BRT would be dead in the water [[and M1 would have collapsed).

I had just a little bit to do with it, so buy me a beer the next time you see me. But without Carmine Palombo and the other transit folks at SEMCOG, John and his staff, and the Governor and his folks, we would still be stuck in 1996: nothing happening and not much hope for anything.

[animatedmartian]

So, it looks like the post RenCen Brush/Franklin Street Station had at least four lines and two islands platforms, and maybe one side platform closest Franklin. It'd be really good to see higher view of the site to see what was still around.

Ask and you shall receive.

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...323#post244323

3rd picture is is prceisely an overview of the area in 1982.

[Gistok]

OK.... it took me a while to find this... but the iconic image of the trains at their Renaissance Center terminus.... very cool image....
https://www.tumblr.com/search/Renaissance+center

[Dexlin]

I find it fascinating that very little credit has been given to people without whom much of that which you describe would flatly not have happened. SEMCOG in particular has provided both leadership and staff support without which all of this would have been difficult to imagine. John Hertel, who for some reason is a flashpoint for certain transit advocates, was an absolute giant in the development of both M1 Rail - it absolutely would not have happened without him - and the development of the much-maligned 2008 transit service plan which makes it possible for us to be competitive for Federal money for BRT. Gov. Snyder had to do some old-fashioned Lyndon Johnson style arm-twisting to get the enabling laws for the RTA passed, without which any kind of BRT would be dead in the water [[and M1 would have collapsed).

I had just a little bit to do with it, so buy me a beer the next time you see me. But without Carmine Palombo and the other transit folks at SEMCOG, John and his staff, and the Governor and his folks, we would still be stuck in 1996: nothing happening and not much hope for anything.

I'd say Carmine has been absolutely invaluable for many years now when it comes to the behind-the-scenes grit work to get this stuff to the politicians. Though, I don't give SEMCOG too much credit, because it's still a suburban controlled organization with often backwards views - their absolute insistence despite all of the protests that I-94 be expanded through central Detroit.

I'd also add Detroit Transit Riders United [[TRU). Despite not having any real power, their leader has been just the loud voice needed to keep the politicians from back-tracking or at least two much. When Snyder and Bing killed Woodward Light Rail, it TRU pretty much single-handedly saved part of the plan by convincing M-1 Rail to see their part of this through despite the politicians initially taking the rug right out from under them. Without TRU, we'd still be talking about a start date for the Woodward Avenue Streetcar [[M-1 Rail).

[Dexlin]

Ask and you shall receive.

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...323#post244323

3rd picture is is prceisely an overview of the area in 1982.

Thanks!

So, there were three lines, which means three or four platforms - one island with two platforms, and one or two side platforms depending on whether there was a platform right off Franklin Street, which may not be the case since the parking lot for the station seems to have been along Atwater. The yard appears to have stretched from St. Antoine to Rivard. It's funny, looking at aerials from today, you can still see where the line went through on its way to the Dequindre Cut between Rivard and Orleans, though, once you get to the east side of Orleans it's hard to tell just how sharp the turn was into the cut.

I guess the only question that leaves is when the historic station was constructed? It could have been as early as the late 1850's/early 1860's, but it may have been later.

[douglasm]

The really nifty thing about Brush Street Station is that Boat Yard was there, and you could walk from the station to the river and watch the Huron and/or Lansdowne dock.....and go back and forth between Boat Yard and Windsor.

[animatedmartian]

Thanks!

So, there were three lines, which means three or four platforms - one island with two platforms, and one or two side platforms depending on whether there was a platform right off Franklin Street, which may not be the case since the parking lot for the station seems to have been along Atwater. The yard appears to have stretched from St. Antoine to Rivard. It's funny, looking at aerials from today, you can still see where the line went through on its way to the Dequindre Cut between Rivard and Orleans, though, once you get to the east side of Orleans it's hard to tell just how sharp the turn was into the cut.

I guess the only question that leaves is when the historic station was constructed? It could have been as early as the late 1850's/early 1860's, but it may have been later.

Mid-to-late 1850 is probably pretty close. I haven't seen any maps or photos that show a station there earlier than 1850.

Btw, here's the curve of line going into the Cut. The vantage point looks to be from Jefferson, so the turn actually looks tighter than it actually is due to perspective. The rail lines cross Orleans just at the corner of the iron foundry building in the background.

http://www.michiganrailroads.com/RRH.../Photo027A.htm

[Dexlin]

Oops, I'd forgotten what I said in my original post. I was talking about the second station [[and longest-lasting), I guess, the one after the fire in April 26, 1866. I'm wondering if it was immediately rebuilt or not.

BTW, I see from old Sanborn maps I was able to access, tonight, that Franklin Street Station actually doesn't use the old tracks that went directly to the old Brush Street passenger station, rather some spurs lines that went to the old Brush Street freight house which was at the southwest corner of Franklin and St. Antoine. Specifically, on the southeast corner was another another part of the freight house for outbound traffic. So, these three tracks used for the short-lived Franklin Street Station were actually using the old out-bound freight lines of the Brush Street Station and not the passenger lines out of the station, which were all south of Atwater. It appears the old freight tracks met the old passenger tracks south of Franklin between Rivard and Riopelle [[and north of Atwater).

[professorscott]

I'd also add Detroit Transit Riders United [[TRU). Despite not having any real power, their leader has been just the loud voice needed to keep the politicians from back-tracking or at least two much. When Snyder and Bing killed Woodward Light Rail, it TRU pretty much single-handedly saved part of the plan by convincing M-1 Rail to see their part of this through despite the politicians initially taking the rug right out from under them. Without TRU, we'd still be talking about a start date for the Woodward Avenue Streetcar [[M-1 Rail).

Good point about TRU, and I've known Megan for a good many years. My leaving them out was not inadvertent; I was listing who I consider to be the unsung heroes, and TRU [[to those of us toiling around the transit biz anyhow) is pretty well known for their advocacy work. They're a well-sung hero, IMO. In fact it was TRU and MOSES that made a lot of the introductions that allowed any of this stuff to get started in the first place, also the Detroit Chamber of Commerce; strange bedfellows. I also left out UDM; M1 Rail was actually born at a meeting in the Loranger Architecture Building on McNichols [[right near where the Trumbull streetcar used to turn around) so many years ago that I can't remember exactly when it was.

Actually the story about how all of this stuff happened would make a good book, but I'll have to wait to write it until some of the players have passed on. Which means I'll have to outlive them, so it'll probably never happen

[Mikeg]

Here's a ground-level photo I took of the tracks on June 5, 1982, looking west from Rivard:
http://grobbel.org/photos/05June1982/scan0033.jpg

[DetroitBoy]

This looks like it has some shots of downtown in the area you are looking for:

http://youtu.be/u_mohqRVHWE

This has some shots of detroit and other places as well:

http://youtu.be/v2bMb2qi4uM

[Bucket]

Reviewing this thread begs the question, if the track is still there, except for where it was removed south of Gratiot, why can't the region invest in commuter rail instead of BRT for the Woodward corridor?

Looking at Google Maps, it appears that the old Grand Trunk rail lines that used be used for SEMTA commuter rail still exist north of Eastern Market and continue north to Pontiac and beyond. Couldn't these tracks be used for commuter rail again? Perhaps extending the tracks above grade along the boulevard down Gratiot to terminate at Farmer? This would connect the Woodward corridor from Pontiac to the Compuware Building/Campus Martius, with a People Mover stop right there at the Detroit terminus to connect to other points downtown. There'd also be M1 access at Campus Martius a block away.

Probably a million reasons why it wouldn't work, and has probably already been explored and discarded as an option by SEMCOG et al, but seems like it would be much preferable to the BRT project being floated.

[professorscott]

Reviewing this thread begs the question, if the track is still there, except for where it was removed south of Gratiot, why can't the region invest in commuter rail instead of BRT for the Woodward corridor? ...

Probably a million reasons why it wouldn't work, and has probably already been explored and discarded as an option by SEMCOG et al, but seems like it would be much preferable to the BRT project being floated.

One reason: the freight railways are adamantly opposed to it. Look how long it's taken to get the Detroit to Ann Arbor commuter rail started - that's been under study for about fifteen years. The problem with the Ann Arbor line is that we've had to negotiate with the freight railways, who own every inch of track, and they have made some pretty stringent demands which are costly and time consuming.

The difficulty is that unlike many cities, our freight tracks are still very active with freight trains. The only practical way to do commuter rail around here would be to use eminent domain to purchase the tracks - and then they would still need significant upgrades.

It's not a bad idea, and it's not impossible, but it would be a lot more expensive than many people imagine. Again, just because we still do manufacture things which ship by rail.

[mtburb]

One reason: the freight railways are adamantly opposed to it. Look how long it's taken to get the Detroit to Ann Arbor commuter rail started - that's been under study for about fifteen years. The problem with the Ann Arbor line is that we've had to negotiate with the freight railways, who own every inch of track, and they have made some pretty stringent demands which are costly and time consuming.

The difficulty is that unlike many cities, our freight tracks are still very active with freight trains. The only practical way to do commuter rail around here would be to use eminent domain to purchase the tracks - and then they would still need significant upgrades.

It's not a bad idea, and it's not impossible, but it would be a lot more expensive than many people imagine. Again, just because we still do manufacture things which ship by rail.

This is probably why it may be very hard to start a Detroit-Toledo service-the rail lines heading through Downriver-particularly that wide expanse of them that pass through Ecorse, Wyandotte and Trenton are possibly the busiest freight tracks in the state, specifically to serve as the gateway into Detroit from the east.

[animatedmartian]

It's also why it's been pretty slow-going getting high speed rail from Detroit to Chicago. And I'm not surprised. The rail crossings always seem to have mile-long trains and I can hear them every morning. It'd probably be easier, albeit more expensive to build an entirely new network dedicated to passenger rail.

[Dexlin]

Thanks for that photo, Mike. It doesn't appear that there was actually a platform off Franklin Street.

Bucket, the railway north of Eastern Market is currently owned by a freight railway [[Detroit Connecting Railroad), which actually uses the line for freight, mostly for scrapyards and the transport of goods to and from Eastern Market, itself. It's completely possible if someone wanted to double track the line between Milwaukee Junction and the market that you could make commuter rail, work, or just purchase the existing tracks from DCON. An [[intercity) service with a terminus at some kind of transit center at Eastern Market would definitely get you closer to downtown than the current station in New Center, but it'd it'd actually be less connected to downtown than the New Center stop. A station at this site, however, for a commuter service from Oakland County seems more feasible [[since there was a service between the two before), though still highly unlikely. The idea isn't as ridiculous as it sounds; it'd just require some political will. It'll be many years off, I predict, before the RTA shows any hunger for anything much beyond buses, I predict.

The physical [[direct) connection between Detroit and Toledo, however, doesn't actually exist, anymore. I believe miles of trackage were removed on the Michigan side of the border, so you'd have to rebuild the corridor down that way to even begin to discuss intercity service.