Taxes on Growing Gardens

[Willi]

We all know there is no true free lunch. Eventually people will have to pay to own land in Detroit.
How long before this fairy tale ends ?

Currently
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...x9v7SFBHgNQBfQ

[belleislerunner]

Assuming they are just using it as a garden for their own enjoyment/bounty - it should just be subject to property tax.

The second they try and sell goods derived from it - I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to tax it.

Isn't that what we do for places that make goods and sell them?

[Willi]

How to enforce "distribution", " vending" , "service"
type of endeavor using basically free land ?
Eventually folk have to ante up to The City.

What happens when the papers are not filed,
would penalties, fines, be forth coming ?
Where do the lines get drawn for sticky widgets ?

It's all nice and good when it is free..........


http://www.miufi.org/#!about/c560

[Lowell]

The city can barely maintain the services, public safety and codes it is mandated to do. The day the city finds time to chase the farmers should be celebrated, meaning city management is finally getting under control. I think there is lower hanging fruit chasing after AirBnB and Uber vendors.

[Willi]

Why can't ALL businesses start so easily , claiming a very large lot, using water, disposing fertilizer runoff, etc. Hell it sounds like CarWash Central at any open lot with a water supply in 500ft. Just grab a lot, any lot, and start your own "business" for profit.

[mwilbert]

Why can't ALL businesses start so easily , claiming a very large lot, using water, disposing fertilizer runoff, etc. Hell it sounds like CarWash Central at any open lot with a water supply in 500ft. Just grab a lot, any lot, and start your own "business" for profit.

Do you really think that there is a market for using vacant lots as carwashes? Why couldn't you just wash cars at random curbsides, if you wanted to wash cars with no facilities? How does a vacant lot help?

The city wants to let people get some value out of vacant lots and also improve their appearance, while still preserving the ability to do something else with the lot in the future when that makes sense. Gardens are one of the few ways to do that, which is presumably why the city has programs to encourage them.

[Willi]

Sooo, it is about Temporary Businesses ^
--- without a real brick & mortar site

Okay, set up an LLC , on free land, move right in.
A little whatever shop -- versus -- a garden
.


At what exact point does The City
get the land back for "something" else ?

Promote Urban WorkShops instead........
This concept could be 12 months a year
-- with no seasonality, no weeding, no mowing
Perhaps even Solar, 12 volt or USB system, no grid
http://www.goalzero.com/mobile/p/140

[mwilbert]

At what exact point does The City
get the land back for "something" else ?
.

Did you look at the link you posted? It describes the lease terms for the various lease options [[one or three years). If you buy a lot, the city doesn't get it back, as you would expect.

[Willi]

I looked, --- the person who posted below me seemed to think the city got the lot back somehow,

improve their appearance, while still preserving the ability to do something else with the lot in the future when that makes sense. Gardens are one of the few ways to do that, which is presumably why the city has programs to encourage them.

The City has to decide what it truly wants.
Zoning of """ usable lots"'' in what manner ??
Awnings, tents, greenhouses, temp structures?

[sumas]

We all know there is no true free lunch. Eventually people will have to pay to own land in Detroit.
How long before this fairy tale ends ?

Currently
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...x9v7SFBHgNQBfQ

Clearly you know nothing about community gardening. Surely if Detroiters on the forum voted, you and Belleislerunner would get the grinch awards.

I am an advanced master gardener and ran my own gardening, landscape & design company for 20 years.

Any garden that approaches commercial is owned and taxes paid. Bee keeping is quite the popular thing right now. To imply water theft is ludicrous at best. Free standing water cisterns from sophisticated to crude but effective systems capture rain water. THE EMPHASIS IS ON CHEMICAL FREE BEST SYSTEM PRACTICES. Very organic. We have a small community garden where plants are acquired through Grow Detroit or the Caputian Green houses.

Neighbors mow and maintain close to 6 acres of vacant property on my block alone. Clean ups are monthly.

I think the city likes us.

We have a legal firepit and neighborhood gatherings are held there. Its called community.

Mostly I don't interfer, the young folk wanted this and created it, maintained it but I do step in with help on occaision. I did build a compost bin for them.

The garden wasn't all that successful this year but they did a get a stellar crop of standard and red cabbage. The cap corp house kids canned Kraut and other cabbage recipes and delivered up and down the street to neighbors.

I read so many ignorant posts and laugh. I am laughing now. My husband wants to know what's so funny, I just pass him the lap top and he laughs too.

Please continue to propone from rocking chairs far from what is Detroit. God knows I love a good chuckle

[detmsp]

Hahaha I suppose Detroit has really turned the corner if taxes on urban farms is the big problem in the city that needs to be discussed.

That's it! I'm moving to bay city where at least i know the farms are taxed!!!!!!

[old guy]

Vacant land, grow food. If the city shuts it down, so be it. Grow food when and where you can. Profit from it, pay sales tax. What's the big deal. Grow food wherever you can. People need food.
Grow it. If this is an issue to you, read the other threads on this forum. I can't even believe this is a negative issue in the city of Detroit with all the unused, vacant land in the city. Oh my God, someone's growing vegetables and the city isn't making a profit. WTF.
Anyone remember the 20 acre community garden in L.A. that hundreds of people worked on growing fruits and vegetables for decades. Hard working people that weren't committing crimes or hanging out on street corners. Growing food for the community and their families. The city bulldozed it and now it's still an empty lot. Why not utilize these empty properties until someone wants to utilize them for personal use or profit?
People working growing food, maybe on the edge, but not scrapping, selling drugs or committing crimes against other people. Is it really all that bad?

[Dexlin]

I don't understand the controversy. Is someone just sh%t-stirring as is so often the case in this town? This is specifically about a choice to garden on city-owned land; I fail to see any issue with this. In fact, this is what the city and land bank should be doing with municipally owned land. You know, finally coming up with some guidelines and promoting this short-term reuse of lots instead of the current system which has been patch work gardners running in every direction. The city can clear a path a let those who want to to maintain and expand the path forward.

[wolverine]

Assuming they are just using it as a garden for their own enjoyment/bounty - it should just be subject to property tax.

The second they try and sell goods derived from it - I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to tax it.

Isn't that what we do for places that make goods and sell them?

A city wouldn't tax a garden. It would just be property taxes [[assessed as vacant land) and a minuscule GBL fee.

[Gpwrangler]

We all know there is no true free lunch. Eventually people will have to pay to own land in Detroit.
How long before this fairy tale ends ?

Currently
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...x9v7SFBHgNQBfQ

Fairy tale? Seriously? Even if people make a few bucks gardening it's better than letting weeds take over. It's not like collecting taxes will make the streetlights suddenly come on. Leave 'em alone. Geez.

[Gannon]

Profit from it, pay sales tax.

There is no sales tax on unprepared food in Michigan.

There'd be sales tax generated when this city-grown produce is sold through restaurants.

I'm with you on the rest of it.

I don't want personal gardens...stuff grown on private property...even looked at, let alone taxed in any way, shape, or form. The community stuff should remain untouched, as well as untaxed, as long as the property used was abandoned and unused within said community...and the harvest shared equally among all who put effort into the space. Every one of those [[that I'm aware of) in the city has improved their respective neighborhoods! They should get PAID by the city for their ideas, efforts, dedication, and results.

Oh, and if land has been prepared and planted...it should remain in a state of protection, not unlike temporary Trust or Probate, until the planted crops are harvested fully. This means if the land comes under dispute, nothing can be done with it until the crop is fully grown. With plants which develop over a very long time, like vines and olive trees and some fruit trees, those have a longer legacy...and most don't move very easily...so special terms must be drawn up for these. It is not as easy as tearing 'em up and replanting...there is cultivation involved which must be considered. Respected.

Cheers!
John

[Willi]

Why does a "garden" get special privledges on a lot of land INSTEAD of letting people start actual businesses on the lots ?

Use the empty lots for economic benefit,
let someone set up shop and SELL
actual items/services to the community
--- that have nothing to do with crops
but under similar guidelines

I believe that concept of ""'Low Tax, No Tax '"
for a leased, rented, acquired lot could/should be expanded for actual Starter Businesses



The market, with actual businesses, employees
--- see post # 7 for detailed view

[sumas]

Willi, you are by far my favorite forumer for huge laughs. Like your concepts, of course. it would be great to see vacant lots developed into productive businesses.

By all means, start a venture capital company that would fund these investments.

Know lots of talented Detroiters, which ones would you prefer to fund, carpenters, plumbers. car detailers, mechanic shop. painters. artists or studios, landscapers, my list could go on. I have many talented neighbors.

Pick one or all, so glad you have all the answers, so put your money where your mouth is. Detroit needs enlightened investors like you.

Oh please lead the way enlightened one.

Actually, my husband says , "you can't fix stupid". He has got that right.

[Willi]

City Council just has to give it the green light, and people will bootstrap a business, on a lot
A sheltered ""space"" on a lot can be created rather simply or quite elaborate.
http://www.noble.org/global/ag/horticulture/poly-pipe-hh-plans/nf-ho-12-02.pdf

Doing business the old style traditional manner with brick/mortar real estate;
may need a serious evolutionary upgrade to accommodate those just getting started.

It's a step up from any flimsy art fair structure seen in hundreds of cities
-- except that multiple Lots could be used to push services, merchandise, etc.
If they fail, go under, can't make the lease, take the structure down, open the lot again



People seem to forget how the Markets in the cities got their start years ago

[sumas]

Still waiting for your venture capital. Do know skilled brick layers. They could use the work.

[Willi]

Still waiting for your venture capital. Do know skilled brick layers. They could use the work.

Don't care about brick/mortar - care more about the pure start up - on a lot

Minimal money, shoestring budgets, bootstrappers, with a lease and a dream

A tent city that actually puts money in their pocket each day, via working at something

[Dan Wesson]

Wait till the black, low,slow flying helicopters show up...

[sumas]

Don't care about brick/mortar - care more about the pure start up - on a lot

Minimal money, shoestring budgets, bootstrappers, with a lease and a dream

A tent city that actually puts money in their pocket each day, via working at something

I do so adore you. No one makes me laugh more. Have you visited our local tent city? Loads of smart talented people that got a shaft. Whats with minimal investment? Totally love to hear your suggestions.

Don't want brick and motar? Here's my suggestion, fund a tent city. Buy a cigarette roller, a pound of tobacco and filters...they can sell them as looseys @ 25 cents [[local stores) who haven't been busted are selling for .75 cents. Investment a little under $100 dollars. business would be brisk, make sure you want a return on your investment. Company store comes to mind. You have zero clue what the odds are for start ups in the city. If you invest money maybe I'll bother to read your insipid post in the future.

[sumas]

Sorry got totally off thread, got it now, tax community gardens. Just too many dumb posts that have no clue on what happens in Detroit or its realities. Sigh!

Plenty of synergy and good things happening but those don't get press.

Happy New Years, Detroit bashers, good things are coming for my city, no doubt it will alarm you.

Sending SOUR kraut your way this fall, send address, do you prefer the colored [[red stuff) or the pale [[white) kraut

[Willi]

Might know a whole lot more about start-ups than some people.
I've done quite a bit of volunteer work in my time but I don't brag about on every post.

Most markets started with people selling stuff out of their horse drawn carts,
----then they did it with those vehicles you see in Post # 19.
Markets existed before Woolworths, Federals, Hudsons, etc. ever got built around town.

Personally I have no problem with those that truly want to work,
creatively using resources available to them, in innovative ways.
The ones that thrive will move on, and those that fail will fall by the wayside,
learning something in the process.
Perhaps some mentoring goes on, some apprenticeship skills get learned.
I'm not convinced It HAS to happen with super fancy stuff, slick buildings, big money.

Alternatives exist for the Mayor and his staff, city council, etc.
An Industrial Park type atmosphere can be created in a few weeks,
with folks leasing those same empty lots and actually doing something with them



Carrots , lettuce and tomatoes do not do a whole lot for the economy of the city
and never will actually amount to much of anything in the end run, in my opinion.
Animal farms in city limits are not allowed for extremely good reasons of modern hygiene.

Detroit needs an economy of people working at something, buying, selling, bartering,
along with paying into The City Systems via taxes, utility bills, etc.