Murder Rate Down

**Bobl** · December-27-14, 02:40 PM

And, across the river, one or two is typical.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...tics/20901891/

**Wesley Mouch** · December-27-14, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by Bobl

And, across the river, one or two is typical.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...tics/20901891/

Three cheers for DPD. Thanks for helping our most vulnerable citizens by working hard to create a safer environment. You are underappreciated. Know that most citizens are grateful for you and your work, and think you're doing a fine job. Ignore the protesters who simply seek to take advantage of any errors and distract from your success.

Hooray!

**Lowell** · December-27-14, 06:06 PM

It's hardly high-fiving news but the direction is encouraging.

Another interesting item in that article...

Most other violent crimes, including carjackings and robberies were also on pace to drop in 2014, although justifiable homicides are up, from 16 year-to-date in 2013 to 22.

"People feel the need to protect themselves," Craig said. "Maybe that's helping drive down robberies: Maybe the criminals are afraid they'll be confronted by someone who has a gun."

**BankruptcyGuy** · December-27-14, 06:22 PM

Yes, I watched Chief Craig on CNN, and as the black police chief of an urban core city, he was expected to criticize gun ownership. No matter where you stand on the issue, it was funny watching the CNN talking heads squirm when he said he supported people using guns to protect their homes.

Racial stereotyping is alive and well in portions of the news media, apparently.

**Gpwrangler** · December-27-14, 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by BankruptcyGuy

Yes, I watched Chief Craig on CNN, and as the black police chief of an urban core city, he was expected to criticize gun ownership. No matter where you stand on the issue, it was funny watching the CNN talking heads squirm when he said he supported people using guns to protect their homes.

Heard him on WWJ. Finally someone talking sense.

**erikd** · December-28-14, 05:00 AM

Originally Posted by BankruptcyGuy

Yes, I watched Chief Craig on CNN, and as the black police chief of an urban core city, he was expected to criticize gun ownership. No matter where you stand on the issue, it was funny watching the CNN talking heads squirm when he said he supported people using guns to protect their homes.

Racial stereotyping is alive and well in portions of the news media, apparently.

I am a long-time Detroit resident, a supporter of gun ownership rights, a supporter of the idea that people have the right to defend themselves and their property from criminals, and I also generally like what Chief Craig has done with the DPD so far [[or at least what I have seen and read about). I do not disagree with the Chief's support of legal gun ownership, or even his support of justifiable homicide.

Having said all of that, the reality of this situation is very disturbing and should make all of us squirm. Keep in mind this is a situation where the police chief of a major city is publicly supporting the act of citizens killing criminals, on a regular basis, as an effective crime reduction strategy.

I think it is likely that the CNN talking heads were not squirming because they were confounded by a challenge to their racial stereotype that a black big city police chief supported gun rights, but rather that he supported citizens killing criminals as an effective crime strategy.

**Wesley Mouch** · December-28-14, 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by erikd

I am a long-time Detroit resident, a supporter of gun ownership rights, a supporter of the idea that people have the right to defend themselves and their property from criminals, and I also generally like what Chief Craig has done with the DPD so far [[or at least what I have seen and read about). I do not disagree with the Chief's support of legal gun ownership, or even his support of justifiable homicide.

Having said all of that, the reality of this situation is very disturbing and should make all of us squirm. Keep in mind this is a situation where the police chief of a major city is publicly supporting the act of citizens killing criminals, on a regular basis, as an effective crime reduction strategy.

I think it is likely that the CNN talking heads were not squirming because they were confounded by a challenge to their racial stereotype that a black big city police chief supported gun rights, but rather that he supported citizens killing criminals as an effective crime strategy.

He did not support killing criminals in the print article. He said

People feel the need to protect themselves," Craig said. "Maybe that's helping drive down robberies: Maybe the criminals are afraid they'll be confronted by someone who has a gun."

There's a huge difference between advocating killing and defending yourself and your property with no malice towards the criminal [[wherein a criminal might die in reasonable self-defense).

**erikd** · December-28-14, 06:48 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

He did not support killing criminals in the print article. He said

"People feel the need to protect themselves," Craig said. "Maybe that's helping drive down robberies: Maybe the criminals are afraid they'll be confronted by someone who has a gun."

There's a huge difference between advocating killing and defending yourself and your property with no malice towards the criminal [[wherein a criminal might die in reasonable self-defense).

When armed citizens are killing criminals at a rate of around two per month in Detroit, and the police chief has only positive things to say about it, that sounds like advocation for, or at least approval of, these regular self-defense killings in Detroit.

This year alone, at least nine people in four months were killed in Detroit in the name of self-defense, according to police...

Detroit Police Chief James Craig says a recent drop in violent and property crime can be attributed in part to homeowners with legally owned guns. There are 83,482 approved permits for concealed-pistol licenses as of July 1 in Wayne County, including the city of Detroit, according to the Michigan State Police.

"Armed, law-abiding citizens can—and I use the word can—be a deterrent to violent crime," Mr. Craig said at a May news conference after his photo appeared on the June cover of an NRA magazine. "I don't think there are many major city police chiefs who have taken this position."
http://www.wsj.com/articles/detroit-...nse-1405888459

I'm not saying that I disagree with Chief Craig. I was just saying that the whole situation is unsettling and disturbing.

**Chicago48** · December-28-14, 07:46 AM

Bottom line, it's harder to be a criminal these days. Technology and smart detective work is helping.

**Gpwrangler** · December-28-14, 08:04 AM

What's really unsettling is seeing 4 or 5 shootings of civilians by criminals on the news every morning. I would rather see the victim survive the crime once in awhile if not more often.

**401don** · December-28-14, 08:12 AM

There is also the problem of a lack of responsible gun ownership. It's a fact that the more guns are in homes the more will be laying about for kids to pickup and discharge into their siblings.

**Honky Tonk** · December-28-14, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by erikd

When armed citizens are killing criminals at a rate of around two per month in Detroit, and the police chief has only positive things to say about it, that sounds like advocation for, or at least approval of, these regular self-defense killings in Detroit.

[QUOTEThis year alone, at least nine people in four months were killed in Detroit in the name of self-defense, according to police...

Detroit Police Chief James Craig says a recent drop in violent and property crime can be attributed in part to homeowners with legally owned guns. There are 83,482 approved permits for concealed-pistol licenses as of July 1 in Wayne County, including the city of Detroit, according to the Michigan State Police.
"Armed, law-abiding citizens can—and I use the word can—be a deterrent to violent crime," Mr. Craig said at a May news conference after his photo appeared on the June cover of an NRA magazine. "I don't think there are many major city police chiefs who have taken this position."

http://www.wsj.com/articles/detroit-...nse-1405888459

I'm not saying that I disagree with Chief Craig. I was just saying that the whole situation is unsettling and disturbing. [/QUOTE]

I agree. His comments could be taken out of context, and easily misconstrued. There's a fine line between a life threatening situation and shooting someone because they're stealing your garden hose. It is time to stop being victims, though. You certainly can't count on the DPD.

**Dan Wesson** · December-28-14, 08:17 AM

I was recently thinking of the rash of justifiable shootings early in 2014 that were splashed across the news media and then all of a sudden there was no more.

Why?

**Gpwrangler** · December-28-14, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by 401don

There is also the problem of a lack of responsible gun ownership. It's a fact that the more guns are in homes the more will be laying about for kids to pickup and discharge into their siblings.

Statistically a very low occurrence rate. Proper training is key.

**313WX** · December-28-14, 10:29 AM

What everyone saw on that CNN interview was simply a clash of different life experiences.

While Chief James Craig was born and raised in Detroit, the CNN talking heads never lived in an environment where the police weren't reliable deterrents to crime and the crime rate was equivalent to 3rd world levels.

So of course, they wouldn't understand where Chief Craig was coming from.

[[in fact, this can apply towards any situation, as life in Detroit isn't really "normal" for most Americans)

**Wesley Mouch** · December-28-14, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by 401don

There is also the problem of a lack of responsible gun ownership. It's a fact that the more guns are in homes the more will be laying about for kids to pickup and discharge into their siblings.

Problems are relative. Of course irresponsible gun ownership is a problem. But so is home invasion by thieves.

It may be that gun ownership nationally is harmful, but its also possible that gun ownership in Detroit is helpful. Problems aren't simple, and neither are solutions.

Murder rate per 100k was

55 in 2012, to 47.5 last year, to 42.6 so far in 2014.

Thus, about 12 citizens per 100k are alive today who would not have been if this trend had not been reversed. With 600+ citizens, that's about 72 people alive per year.

Don, do you think there are 72 people each year in Detroit killed by irresponsible gun ownership?

Maybe. Could more than 72 of the 298 murders be because of irresponsible gun ownership?

Summary: 72 Detroit residents are alive because of most responsible gun ownership. And I'll be that 100 times that number were not victims of home invasion. Is the overall crime rate falling at same rate?

**Cliffy** · December-28-14, 01:27 PM

The reason the rate went down last year was because of the polar vortex. Not trying to be funny either.

**aj3647** · December-28-14, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by erikd

When armed citizens are killing criminals at a rate of around two per month in Detroit, and the police chief has only positive things to say about it, that sounds like advocation for, or at least approval of, these regular self-defense killings in Detroit.

I'm pretty sure not one of those individuals who committed a justifiable homicide in Detroit in 2014 thought to themselves "Would Chief Craig approve of this?" before they pulled the trigger, so his approval is irrelevant. Self-defense killings are spur of the moment occurrences committed by individuals who must make a split-second decision in defense of their own lives. It's hardly part of a "strategy", let alone one that could be employed by a police Chief.

**Wesley Mouch** · December-28-14, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by erikd

When armed citizens are killing criminals at a rate of around two per month in Detroit, and the police chief has only positive things to say about it, that sounds like advocation for, or at least approval of, these regular self-defense killings in Detroit.

I'm not saying that I disagree with Chief Craig. I was just saying that the whole situation is unsettling and disturbing.

Armed criminals are killing citizens at the rate of around twenty-five [[25) per month in Detroit.

Which is the larger problem? Which is more morally acceptable?

No criminals are being gunned down on the street by citizens [[to my knowledge). Only criminals invading the homes of citizens.

He did not encourage citizens to seek out criminals to kill. He only recognizes the reality of Detroit's law enforcement challenges, and appreciates that citizens are helping keep their city safe from thieves, rapists, and murderers. If they are killed during the commission of a crime on his watch, I don't think he will shed any tears.

**Cliffy** · December-28-14, 04:02 PM

You guys are arguing over guns when we all know the murder rate went down because we had the snowiest winter of all time combined with some of the coldest temps ever. SMH.

**Scottathew** · December-28-14, 04:15 PM

This is huge and important. If we can string together a couple more years of crime trending down it will be a great sign.

I've always tried to preach to folks that all the little things add up. Usually it's in the context of personal finances, but it applies to Detroit.

Crime being down along with emerging from bankruptcy, street lights, improved mass transit, side-lot purchases, CBD and midtown booming, these all add up to something big. I hope the the future will show that all the dreamers are right, and that we're all watching the beginning of something great, that may take decades to unfold, but will unfold none-the-less.

**Gpwrangler** · December-28-14, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by Cliffy

You guys are arguing over guns when we all know the murder rate went down because we had the snowiest winter of all time combined with some of the coldest temps ever. SMH.

Trend data has to be collected over a longer period of time to be accurate. As far as arguing about the second amendment...not up for negotiation.

**Zacha341** · December-28-14, 07:04 PM

I think it's a combination of these factors [[criminals knowing more people are armed and the weather). Why can't it be?

Originally Posted by Cliffy

You guys are arguing over guns when we all know the murder rate went down because we had the snowiest winter of all time combined with some of the coldest temps ever. SMH.

**Dan Wesson** · December-28-14, 07:36 PM

Do you think the perceived drop is due to what this article is about.

It was back in April when things seemed to get better.

http://motorcitymuckraker.com/2014/0...-media-public/

**Gpwrangler** · December-28-14, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by Dan Wesson

Do you think the perceived drop is due to what this article is about.

It was back in April when things seemed to get better.

http://motorcitymuckraker.com/2014/0...-media-public/

Not if you watch the news every morning. Didn't seem better to me. Can't stomach Muckraker but I did skim the article.