Obama's immigration speech: What to watch for

[Zacha341]

Beyond politics and games in the school yard, what will be the immediate and long term fiscal cost? Retirements, healthcare etc. Silence.

Course most of the media questions and reports revolve around 'what will the republican response be?' 'what will the republicans do?'... how will they feel, etc. The partisan wheel is spinning again ignoring the full impact of executive amnesty. Do all Hispanics citizens/ community think alike re. illegal immigration? Doubtful...

From article:
Washington [[CNN) -- President Barack Obama is set to unveil his long-awaited overhaul of U.S. immigration rules -- potentially shielding millions of people from deportation -- Thursday in an 8 p.m. ET speech from the White House.

The impending actions are fraught with both political controversy, as Republicans lambast him for circumventing the legislative process to declare "executive amnesty." There's also intense interest surrounding who, exactly, among the nation's 11 million undocumented immigrants will be covered.
Here's our guide on what to watch for during and after Obama's speech tonight...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/20/politi...iref=allsearch

What would Obama's executive order do?
Which parents stay and which ones go?
Will there be age limits?
ETC....

[coracle]

http://www.safeshare.tv/w/eUqDmyBbir

[Papasito]

People always try to make the argument that this is a nation of Immigrants, reflecting on the Ellis Island days.

Immigrants from the Ellis Island days came in, with permission, went through proper procedures, had health screenings. Today's ILLEGAL immigrants are not even compatible. They need to fix the borders and fix the system. Breaking the rules is not excusable and should come with penalties. If you don't believe me, try going into a country OTHER THAN the US illegally and see what happens to you.


This entire mess is the fault of Democrats AND Republicans. Democrats for coaxing Latin American illegals with free health insurance, free schools, low income housing and welfare. The Republicans for not doing anything about it. Both of them for not protecting our borders for the safety, health and security of our nation. Both of them for allowing television stations, report cards, schooling and entertainment in the US in their foreign language, allowing them to fail to assimilate, become part of society and learn the language. Both of them for not fixing a system that has been broken for 4 or more decades, and has brought over 11 million undocumented people into our country.

[Papasito]

Do you really think the US is 'racist'?
How about comparing the US against the illegal immigration laws of other countries?

Country: Italy
What the law does: Like much of southern Europe, Italy faces the daunting challenge of trying to regulate and manage massive migration inflows from North Africa and the Mediterranean. In response, the Italian government has instituted various measures aimed at curbing immigration. One of the harshest, passed by parliament in 2009, penalizes illegal immigrants with a fine of €5,000-10,000 and allows immigration officials to detain them for up to 6 months.

Country: Australia
What the law does: Despite its anything-goes image, Australia has a surprisingly draconian immigration policy. And none of the country’s various immigration laws is more controversial than the Migration Reform Act of 1992 and its subsequent amendments, which collectively require the authorities to detain all non-citizens who are discovered in Australia without a valid visa. Between 1999 and 2003, the law was used to detain more than 2,000 child refugees from Southeast Asia and the Middle East who were seeking asylum in Australia.

Country: United Arab Emirates
What the law does: An abundant supply of cheap immigrant labor from Southeast Asia and India has helped make the UAE a major destination for foreign direct investment. Yet despite a surge of immigration into the Emirates over the past decade, the government has yet to reform its many draconian immigration policies and labor laws. One of the toughest provisions in Emirati immigration law is theprohibition of foreigners from engaging in any sort of labor union-like activity. As a result, living conditions are often harsh, including 80-hour work weeks, back-breaking manual labor, and below-minimum-wage pay. It’s not atypical for immigrants to live in “tiny pre-fabricated huts, 12 men to a room, forced to wash themselves in filthy brown water and cook in kitchens next to overflowing toilets.”

Source: http://marinprogressive.wordpress.co...und-the-world/

What does Mexico do about Illegals coming into THEIR country via Guatemala?

Mexico has a tight border, at the bottom that is. They want to get to America but they do not want the 3rd world countries advancing into their own. Typical. Really what they are doing once they get in is nothing, even though there are stories of Mexican authorities imprisoning border hoppers, raping them, stealing from them or worse. But they also have much more important things to worry about. Actually at the moment Mexican drug cartels are sneaking into Guatemala. Stealing their land and growing cocaina. Mexico is responsible for a great deal of the crime in Guatemala today.

Because Mexican police are so corrupt, they can be bought with a few dollars. There has been police brutality on their parts. They assault these immigrants, take everything from them including papers and leave them stranded with nothing, some are even killed, but for the most part of it, the police or government of Mexico is doing nothing to deter the pouring of immigrants into their country because they know they are advancing to the U.S and so therefore it won't be a drain to their system.

[Mikeg]

From Instapundit:

[Patrick]

What to watch for? Well, all my Tea Party relatives went fucking nuts on FB a little while ago. But that was predicted.

[oladub]

Nice while it lasted

[Zacha341]

Eh, I'm hearing that sorta. Such a neat world to be living in: the 'dems' vs. 'tea party'. No other voices of opposition, individuals, or choice? Great.

What to watch for? Well, all my Tea Party relatives went fucking nuts on FB a little while ago. But that was predicted.

[Zacha341]

The spin doctors as well as the reasoned will now suggest and in some cases 'tell' us what to think and believe re. the speech itself. Read it for yourself:

Full text: President Obama's immigration speech

[gazhekwe]

Lots of hysterical talking points not backed by actual fact up there.

...free health insurance, free schools, low income housing and welfare.
Really? Sources?

...allowing television stations, report cards, schooling and entertainment in the US in their foreign language, allowing them to fail to assimilate, become part of society and learn the language.

Focusing on Spanish language is a red herring. Did you know English speakers have not assimilated? Did you know assimilation into this mainstream society is actually impossible for brown people with accents? Witness how long it took for Italians, Greeks, Germans, Arabs to be accepted. There are a lot of stations, newspapers, schooling and entertainment in languages other than English. And how do you expect people to become acceptable to you if you do not help them?

[Papasito]

Sorry, gazhekwe , I really like ya buddy and respect a lot of things you say, but if you're not in the know about how minorities get special benefits and favoritism for Government assistance and through Government programs, you are really out of the loop and I can't spend the time today to write the book that would be the full explanation. All races are not treated equally by the US Government and that's that. It's a fact, not a conspiracy and not an illusion.

Now that that is said, I have to agree with what Obama did yesterday.
I like what he did, not entirely sure if I like the way he did it. But he did it, and Republicans are making a huge mistake handling it the way they are. They are committing political suicide.


Republicans are handling this badly the way they handled Health Care. Back when Bill Clinton was President, they tried to bring about big Health Care changes. It didn't fly. Republicans KNEW during the 8 years Bush II was in office that the next time Democrats took charge, they would re-do Health Care, and did NOTHING. They could have passed a Health Care bill THEIR WAY under Bush II and didn't. Then Obama got the White House, did what everyone expected [[though the Affordable Health Care Act stinks, he was pressured to do "something" and everyone knew "something" was coming) and the Republicans came out raging mad.
Why? Because Republicans talk a lot of game, then when they get in, they don't do anything.

Now Republicans could write legislation while they are in control after the lame-duck session to fix Immigration THEIR WAY. But they WON'T. Based on this "poisoning the well" philosophy of the Republicans, they are coming off as extremely racist and anti-Immigration. So just like Health Care, they are going to blow Immigration unless they get some direction and leadership.

The outline of what Obama did sounds reasonable. It's not excessive. It's not "amnesty".
Now is the time to re-vamp the Immigration policy and fix the busted system.
I do not have a problem with the way Obama did things last night.

If Republicans really want to fight what Obama did, they need to approach it as that they don't have a problem with what he did, they just don't like HOW he did it. They need to make that clear. Because right now they are looking exactly like the anti-minority racists that the Democrats paint them to be.

[oladub]

gazhekwe, David Frum, at the Atlantic magazine, partly addressed your mention about costs.

"The president’s plan would be costly. The vast majority of those who would gain residency rights under the president’s reported action will be poor. Their low incomes will qualify them for means-tested social programs just as soon as their paperwork is in order. This will not be a small-dollar item. Forty-one percent of the net growth in the Medicaid population between 2011 and 2013was made up of immigrants and their children. Legalize millions more poor immigrants, and sooner or later, programs from Medicaid to Section 8 housing vouchers to food stamps will grow proportionately. It’s not widely appreciated how much past immigration choices contribute to present-day social spending. In 1979, people living in immigrant households were 28 percent more likely to be poor than the native-born. By 1997, persons in immigrant households were 82 percent more likely to be poor than the native-born. Wittingly or not, U.S. immigration policy has hugely multiplied the number of poor people living in the United States. The president’s plan will put millions of them on the path to qualifying for welfare benefits." http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...-order/382845/

Schools are a huge expense and a form of help to illegal aliens. it costs an average of $12,800/child/year for attendance at a public primary or secondary school in the US. Add something for the cost remedial and bi-lingual education. The children of illegal aliens are already receiving this support. It has to be paid for with higher taxes or cut backs in everyone else's education as in California where public schools have gone from the top of the nation to just above Mississippi's to educate foreign children.

One of my grandfathers wasn't allowed into the US because he couldn't speak English. After learning enough English working in a Canadian lumber camp, they let him in. Three of my four immigrant grandparent never became proficient in English. The other grandparent kept her accent. Still, they didn't complain about their choice or think someone owed them something. They accepted the terms of entry into the US. Years later, the grandfather who wasn't let in had to sign a document making him responsible for my father's debts when my father immigrated to the US should my father not be able to pay his medical bills or whatever. Those were the terms until at least the early 1950's. I advocate going back to those terms. if someone wants to move here fine but on our terms not theirs.

[gazhekwe]

It is interesting to watch the GOP go batshit crazy over this issue after years of obstruction on it.

Although I am not an immigrant, I have friends and relatives who are first generation legal immigrants, and I have been working cultural competency education for nearly ten years. Because I present with Latinos and with Arabs presenting in their communities, believe me, I am aware of the fear of deportation that prevents most from accessing any "free" benefits while at the same time they have SSI and taxes withheld from their checks just like the rest of us. I would sure like a citation or two to support your position on the free benefits.

[Patrick]

And sure enough, the crazies were out in full force last night. A 23 year old woman from Mt. Morris, MI was arrested at a protest near the White House with a gun in a holster attached to her hip. She is reportedly not cooperating with investigators.

Making Michigan proud.

[Zacha341]

Yet is the GOP the singular oppositional zeitgeist [[defining spirit or mood of a particular period or policy) re. amnesty for illegals?

IMO, to believe so is to concede a consensus of thought the GOP could only wish for within their divided ranks! Indeed there are those within the GOP who want illegals as bounty for lower wage profit and other political leverage.

I suggest there will be more opposition and concern beyond 'party' and expectation as this roles out. Stand by as these groups and individuals make themselves known.

It is interesting to watch the GOP go batshit crazy over this issue after years of obstruction on it.

[Zacha341]

Crazy. We see that she did not receive the same response that Miriam Carey did.

And sure enough, the crazies were out in full force last night. A 23 year old woman from Mt. Morris, MI was arrested at a protest near the White House with a gun in a holster attached to her hip. She is reportedly not cooperating with investigators.

Making Michigan proud.

[oladub]

It is interesting to watch the GOP go batshit crazy over this issue after years of obstruction on it.

Although I am not an immigrant, I have friends and relatives who are first generation legal immigrants, and I have been working cultural competency education for nearly ten years. Because I present with Latinos and with Arabs presenting in their communities, believe me, I am aware of the fear of deportation that prevents most from accessing any "free" benefits while at the same time they have SSI and taxes withheld from their checks just like the rest of us. I would sure like a citation or two to support your position on the free benefits.

Do their kids go to public schools? Thats a free benefit. It costs an average of over $12,800/child/year for primary and secondary education in the US. perhaps it costs a little more if there are remedial or language problems. The taxpayer cost of educating one child for 12 years is $12,800 x 12 = $153,600. I think the cheating employer profiting from hiring lower pay illegal aliens should pay for such costs. Also, aren't illegal aliens provided free medical care and free taxpayer paid birthings if they show up in the emergency room? Here's a list of benefits as listed by the Center for Immigration studies. http://cis.org/immigrant-welfare-use-2011 I'll post just a few of points not including hidden costs like paying for unemployment and welfare Americans who have been displaced by aliens. While some GOPers are going "bat shit crazy" it is interesting to note how sanguine and approving most Democrats have been in response to President Obama's broadside attack on the Constitution and the rule of law.

Among the findings:

• In 2009 [[based on data collected in 2010), 57 percent of households headed by an immigrant [[legal and illegal) with children [[under 18) used at least one welfare program, compared to 39 percent for native households with children.
  
  
• Immigrant households’ use of welfare tends to be much higher than natives for food assistance programs and Medicaid. Their use of cash and housing programs tends to be similar to native households.
  
  
• A large share of the welfare used by immigrant households with children is received on behalf of their U.S.-born children, who are American citizens. But even households with children comprised entirely of immigrants [[no U.S.-born children) still had a welfare use rate of 56 percent in 2009.
  
  
• Immigrant households with children used welfare programs at consistently higher rates than natives, even before the current recession. In 2001, 50 percent of all immigrant households with children used at least one welfare program, compared to 32 percent for natives.
• We estimate that 52 percent of households with children headed by legal immigrants used at least one welfare program in 2009, compared to 71 percent for illegal immigrant households with children. Illegal immigrants generally receive benefits on behalf of their U.S.-born children.
• ​Illegal immigrant households with children primarily use food assistance and Medicaid, making almost no use of cash or housing assistance. In contrast, legal immigrant households tend to have relatively high use rates for every type of program.

[Zacha341]

I don't agree 100% with the articles, but diversity of view is in part where I think we can find out what's additionally at stake [[beyond the standard 'GOP-apposing-ALL-things-Obama' rubric), and I find areas in both posts compelling.

Once ascribed as 'pimping for the man' by dailykos.com -- fast forward almost 10 years -- perhaps on this subject Project 21 seems a bit less, eh, hysterical?

Is it perhaps that the conservative percentage of black people are a bit less constrained to 'say' what many other black people are beginning to think about??

Project 21 – Black Conservatives: Obama’s Amnesty Order Harms Jobs, Schools, Health and Simple Fairness, Black Activists Say
http://chicagodefender.com/2014/11/2...activists-say/

Project 21 has issued six “DataReleases” on immigration in recent weeks, covering the following major policy areas:

• Jobs: Jobless Black Americans are demographically similar to illegal immigrants and amnesty means they encounter substantially increased head-to-head competition for jobs. Illegal immigrant migration to urban centers exacerbates challenges for black jobseekers. The U.S. Commission on Civil Rights concluded that illegal immigrants “depress both wages and employment rates for low-skilled American citizens, a disproportionate number of whom are black men.”• Fairness: Carefully-crafted rules to manage immigration into the United States with an eye toward health, financial sustainability and clean legal records are discarded by mass amnesty, which also is unfair to those who immigrated after waiting in line. Obama-backed immigration policy changes would eliminate the method by which a quarter of all African immigrants, who historically have emigrated legally, are allowed residency in the United States while millions of Latin Americans who arrived illegally are granted amnesty.• Health: Health providers along the U.S-Mexico border are dealing with flu, tuberculosis, chicken pox, scabies and other illnesses brought into the U.S. by illegal aliens. The legal immigration process contains health screening, but the massive influx of Latin American children in 2014 in particular led the Obama Administration to rely on inferior screening processes and a resettlement strategy that dispersed them across the country.• Public schools: Attorney General Eric Holder told public school administrators they have an “obligation to enroll students regardless of immigration status.” This influx expands class sizes and stretches school budgets. • Refugees: Designating Latin American illegal aliens as “refugees” from gangs and drug lords to justify an executive action blocking them from deportation would disrupt rules and limits for accepting refugees into the United States and put refugee candidates from other parts of the world at a severe disadvantage. • History: Immigration surges historically have tended to hurt the employment prospects of black Americans.

Then on the other hand:

DUPREE: Black leaders shamefully silent on Obama’s amnesty
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...t-obamas-amne/

First and foremost, the average black person’s employment opportunities are jeopardized by the President’s order. According to data compiled by the U.S. Department of Labor, more than 20 percent of black people between the ages of 20 and 24 are unemployed and more than 30 percent of black people between the ages of 18 and 19 are unemployed. These rates have risen to their current level under the Obama administration, while black homeownership rates and median income have also fallen. In many economic segments, the projected 5 million new workers will be competing directly for already scarce employment opportunities leaving a very real possibility that the economic status of blacks will decline further....

It is urgent. The black community must take a critical look at the behavior of our leaders, the impact on our communities and potential impacts of Executive amnesty and start asking hard questions. Does the Reverend Al Sharpton really believe Executive amnesty is a good thing, or has he just gotten used to his seat at the table with this administration? Do leaders like Shelia Jackson Lee, Maxine Waters and Jim Clyburn focus their decisions on your well-being or the continued power and prestige of their position?

[Patrick]

So do you all think there will be a government shutdown come Dec 11th?

[coracle]

I wonder how many criminals, murderers, diseases, welfare/food stamp illegals he'll give amnesty to? Just think' somebody reading this note may be dead by their hand or driving practices by this time next year and it needn't have happened if laws were carried out and the illegals are deported. Do you think these people would do the same for you if you were illegal in their country - any of them????

[coracle]

So do you all think there will be a government shutdown come Dec 11th?

Let's hope so. The sooner the better.

[old guy]

So do you all think there will be a government shutdown come Dec 11th?

I was under the assumption that had already happened.

[Patrick]

Let's hope so. The sooner the better.

And for how long would you want the gov to shutdown?

[coracle]

And for how long would you want the gov to shutdown?

At least until they have "saved" several Trillion Dollars off the National Debt; which should take them through Christmas and New Years. Maybe keep going until the Private Sector feels the benefit from the affect, then start giving their money away again slowly.

[Jimaz]

Obama Lays Down The Law On Immigration