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  1. #1
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    Default American Torture

    Should we be offended that we are using torture tactics on people from organizations that killed thousands of innocents in the twin towers? What about the ones that take over villages in the Middle East, slaughter and execute men women and children and throw them in mass graves? That behead construction workers, journalists and civilians and video it and distribute it so we can see it? That have distributed torture manuals that they use as standard procedures on captured soldiers and Western prisoners?
    These folks do the worst of the worst imaginable to our people.

    Imagine if they did what they do to your son or daughter. Husband or wife. Friend or family member. One of their known practices is to hang you by your elbows over a door and cut you slowly with razorblades until your entrials are exposed until you eventually bleed to death.

    The only way to win against crazy people is to be crazier. The middle east only respects STRENGTH and FEAR. I know we are supposed to be the good guys, but ...
    If we have a really really bad dude in our grips that has information that can save lives... a person who has cut throats and slaughtered innocents ... someone who on his home turf would not hesitate to kill those in your family you love most ... would you do whatever it takes to get that information?

    Al Queda Torture Manual:
    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/al-qaeda...re-techniques/
    ISIS atrocities:
    http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/28/world/...boy/index.html
    Last edited by Papasito; December-11-14 at 08:45 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default

    I was just coming here to post this:

    http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/27...ing-some-folks

    No excuses, torture is illegal and immoral. Ever heard of the Geneva Convention ? The US signed it.
    Last edited by Pam; December-11-14 at 09:24 PM.

  3. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pam View Post
    I was just coming here to post this:

    http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/27...ing-some-folks

    No excuses, torture is illegal and immoral. Ever heard of the Geneva Convention ? The US signed it.
    When we are fighting an enemy who abides by the same rules then we can talk.

    I say we do what we need to in order to protect our own.

  4. #4

    Default

    Geneva Convention does not apply. It covers wars between nations. The terrorists are enemy combatants. They don't represent any nation. I don't understand why some people find enhanced interrogation tactics immoral but support the Presidents drone policy which has killed many civilian adults and children. Also, an American citizen was successfully targeted by the done program.

    Pam, I am not writing about you as I have no idea what your thoughts are concerning the drone program.

  5. #5
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    Default

    No, I don't support the drone policy either.

  6. #6

    Default

    So interrogation should be limited to just asking questions? If no answer we just say "Pretty please". Grow up, we are in a fight for our very existence. Take a trip over there and let them get ahold of you and let us know how well you were treated.

  7. #7

    Default

    This is an article on Interrogation policies developed by a decorated Marine interrogator at Guadalcanal. If you don't want to read the commentary, you can skip it. For the history of development, you can skip to the part near the picture of Major Moran 'interviewing' a prisoner. Skip to the bottom to read the techniques. I did, it is worth it. NOTE, the modern recipient of the information is certain these techniques won't work in the Middle East, but history shows that we demonize every group we are currently engaging. I feel certain a WWII vet in the 40s would feel these tactics were miraculous, dealing with the monsters from Japan. My Dad served in the Pacific. I remember the aftermath.

    SUGGESTIONS FOR JAPANESE INTERPRETERS BASED ON WORK IN THE FIELD by Sherwood F. Moran, Major, USMCREPRINT
    Division Intelligence Section,
    Headquarters, First Marine Division,
    Fleet Marine Force,
    C/O Fleet Post Office, San Francisco, Calif.
    168/292 17 July, 1943.

    SUGGESTIONS FOR JAPANESE INTERPRETERS BASED ON WORK IN THE FIELD

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/10/1350709/-Here-s-A-Wrecking-Ball-for-Cheney-and-The-Torture-Apologists-To-Suck-On

    NOTE from Gazhekwe: I spent more than 30 years in my career interviewing witnesses as I investigated civil rights complaints. I found many witnesses were hostile and some evasive. It was always easier to conduct the interviews once you overcame these barriers. I developed my own methods, and surprisingly, many were along the lines of these developed in the field by Major Moran. Of course, aversive methods were never available but I doubt they would have proven successful at all. Can you see me with the tummy tube and the water jug, questioning the head of Personnel at Chrysler? Or forcing the 'uncomfortable position' on the lady who heads up Manpower Michigan?


    Last edited by gazhekwe; December-12-14 at 02:32 PM.

  8. #8
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    Default

    When we are fighting an enemy who abides by the same rules then we can talk.
    I don't understand why some people find enhanced interrogation tactics immoral but support the Presidents drone policy which has killed many civilian adults and children. Also, an American citizen was successfully targeted by the done program.
    Both great points.

    And gazhekwe, I have tremendous respect for you. It's always a good perspective when you chime in. You have a lot of real world experience in things.

    -------------------
    Sometimes I think we should do whatever it takes, with the most severe as the last resort. When you see things like:

    Radical Islamic Group ISIS Beheading Christian Children in Iraq-Truth!
    Summary of the eRumor:
    Reports have gone viral on the Web alleging that the radical Islamic group ISIS is beheading Christian children in Iraq. The reports also say that the terrorist group is killing every Christian in its sight. One report is alleged to come from Crisis Relief International (CRI).
    The Truth:
    The reports of Christian persecution in Iraq are true and have been confirmed by various agencies including CNN, Fox News, theCatholic Church and the Christian Post,
    http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors...m#.VItWhCvF91Y

    And

    you start to wonder why show any mercy at all...
    It's like the 3rd Reich all over again

  9. #9

    Default

    Or Wounded Knee.

    PS Thank you, Papasito. Many decades have passed during which I was mostly paying attention. Time is the best teacher.

  10. #10

    Default

    Hey, here's an idea: How about all the torture-apologist folks getting together with all the pro-decapitator folks. Then they duke it out mano a mano and leave all the rest of us the fuck out of it.

    Everybody wins!
    Last edited by Jimaz; December-12-14 at 09:29 PM.

  11. #11

    Default

    [QUOTE=Papasito;462222]
    The only way to win against crazy people is to be crazier. /QUOTE]I understand some of what you're saying, "but The only way to win against crazy people is to be crazier." What's the end game in that situation. I mean seriously, multiply that statement as many times as you care to, and where do you end up?

  12. #12
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    Default

    [QUOTE=old guy;462347]
    Quote Originally Posted by Papasito View Post
    The only way to win against crazy people is to be crazier. /QUOTE]I understand some of what you're saying, "but The only way to win against crazy people is to be crazier." What's the end game in that situation. I mean seriously, multiply that statement as many times as you care to, and where do you end up?
    The so called "war on terror" is unwinnable. Torture and drones do nothing but create more terrorists.

  13. #13

    Default

    [QUOTE=Pam;462362]
    Quote Originally Posted by old guy View Post

    The so called "war on terror" is unwinnable. Torture and drones do nothing but create more terrorists.
    Just curious what would you do ?

  14. #14

    Default

    If "they" do something and it has a negative effect, what sense does it make to do the same thing? And then when it doesn't work, do it harder? That is the definition of insanity.

    I will concede that, from the POV of groups like ISIS, their actions do work. They rile us up and we bankrupt ourselves to rub them out. See how AlQaeda was instrumental in destroying our economy and forcing us to give up our freedom? But they destroy themselves doing it.

  15. #15

    Default

    The Constitution already has torture covered but since the Constitution is ignored and overridden on other issues, why should we be surprised when cruel and unusual punishment is allowed and encouraged?

    Eighth Amendment
    Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

    "The Eighth Amendment (Amendment VIII) to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights (ratified December 15, 1791[1]) prohibiting the federal government from imposing excessive bail, excessive fines or cruel and unusual punishments, including torture. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that this amendment's Cruel and Unusual Punishment Clause also applies to the states. The phrases in this amendment originated in the English Bill of Rights of 1689." -wikipedia

  16. #16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Papasito View Post
    The only way to win against crazy people is to be crazier.
    Another way to put it is the only way to win against depraved lunatics is to be an even greater depraved lunatic. I don't buy that logic. If you want the world to be a better place, you don't do it by attempting to one-up brutality.

  17. #17

    Default

    ^^^^^^^^ I think we're mixing quotes here. I don't even know how to do that.

  18. #18

    Default

    Sorry. Was addressing Pam.

  19. #19

    Default

    It's certainly a good topic to discuss. On one hand, I have zero sympathy for extremists without morals - those who kill in the name of their god. Fucking charlatans. I also believe that (through torture) the US distances itself from what it has always tried to exemplify; freedom.

    You have to acknowledge the fact that it is 2014 and it's a much different, scarier world out there. It requires special considerations and unique tactics to overcome an enemy that has evolved into a cowardly beast intent upon harming/killing anyone who does not conform to their ways of life. There is no consideration for the innocent - in fact the innocent are prime targets due to the high profile that accompanies their deaths. Sickening it has come to this.

  20. #20
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    Default

    News update - Dick Cheney is still an evil asshole:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/1...n_6322872.html

    I'd do it again in a minute," said Cheney

  21. #21

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pam View Post
    News update - Dick Cheney is still an evil asshole:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/1...n_6322872.html
    How did the country fall so far? I just cannot believe that all of the republicans who voted from Bush and Cheney think God is being waterboarding and whatever you call that water rectal thing and people hanging by their arms. And say it isn't torture. Why do you think ISIS exists - maybe because of the torture we did when Bush was still in office - tit for tat and believe me, the Middle East has a long memory, not like this country that forgets things in a couple of weeks.

    And for anyone who still believes in karma, why are Cheney and Bush still having a grand old time? Maybe they will say God bless America again when they talk about waterboarding someone hundreds of times.

  22. #22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TKshreve View Post
    It's certainly a good topic to discuss. On one hand, I have zero sympathy for extremists without morals - those who kill in the name of their god. Fucking charlatans. I also believe that (through torture) the US distances itself from what it has always tried to exemplify; freedom.

    You have to acknowledge the fact that it is 2014 and it's a much different, scarier world out there. It requires special considerations and unique tactics to overcome an enemy that has evolved into a cowardly beast intent upon harming/killing anyone who does not conform to their ways of life. There is no consideration for the innocent - in fact the innocent are prime targets due to the high profile that accompanies their deaths. Sickening it has come to this.
    ...and it just got a lot sicker.

  23. #23

    Default

    So if we proved to these people we stopped doing this, all would be forgiven ? They don't forgive each other. Blaming Bush isn't going help now.

  24. #24

    Default

    Jack says it best, "You Can't Handle The Truth"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FnO3igOkOk

  25. #25

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Papasito View Post
    Should we be offended that we are using torture tactics on people from organizations that killed thousands of innocents in the twin towers? What about the ones that take over villages in the Middle East, slaughter and execute men women and children and throw them in mass graves? That behead construction workers, journalists and civilians and video it and distribute it so we can see it? That have distributed torture manuals that they use as standard procedures on captured soldiers and Western prisoners?
    These folks do the worst of the worst imaginable to our people.

    Imagine if they did what they do to your son or daughter. Husband or wife. Friend or family member. One of their known practices is to hang you by your elbows over a door and cut you slowly with razorblades until your entrials are exposed until you eventually bleed to death.

    The only way to win against crazy people is to be crazier. The middle east only respects STRENGTH and FEAR. I know we are supposed to be the good guys, but ...
    If we have a really really bad dude in our grips that has information that can save lives... a person who has cut throats and slaughtered innocents ... someone who on his home turf would not hesitate to kill those in your family you love most ... would you do whatever it takes to get that information?

    Al Queda Torture Manual:
    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/al-qaeda...re-techniques/
    ISIS atrocities:
    http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/28/world/...boy/index.html
    Did we beat the Nazis by outdoing them or matching them in brutality? No, we beat them because our cause was just, and we believed it as a country because we behaved with honor and determination.

    To be sure, I fully support obliterating the Islamic state and combating terrorists around the globe. Do I support feeding them anally and holding them in torture chambers? No, because I am an American, and I believe in truth and justice.

    From a practical standpoint, if you torture someone, they will say anything. They'll tell you the sky is purple if you'll just stop torturing them. It isn't an effective interrogation technique. It's a great recruiting technique for terrorists, though, as they can point to the alleged depraved nature of Americans as a reason to continue to fight them. We learned this in Vietnam. Or, at least, should have learned.

    I understand the desire for revenge and indeed we must remember the American lives lost and bring the fight to the enemy. That doesn't mean waterboarding. That doesn't mean rectal feeding. To support such deranged behavior puts you in the company of the enemy, and is profoundly un-American.
    Last edited by poobert; December-16-14 at 10:23 AM.

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