The -Electric- Motor City

[DETGES]

Please Note: The Goal is not for personal money, fame, or status. I believe that this is a really stellar idea.

Detroit is in the most unique position in United States-- It is in the process of reinventing itself. I think I have the perfect unifying direction for the city-- one that will truly put us back on the world map - one with all sorts of win-win possibilities. Detroit can be the first major city in the world to be based upon the next generation of transportation systems. I think that Detroit is at a critical crossroads in planning its future direction and right now is the perfect time to make this idea a reality.

My idea: Rebuild Detroit's infrastructure centering around electricity based transportation and truly make it work for the people, thus ensuring the adoption of this new way of moving around. Detroit can be the electric motor city that leads the way.

So, why Detroit?

-Detroit is in the process of reshaping itself and would benefit from bold vision as it capitalizes on this opportunity.

-Detroit’s natural place in the world, as the motor city, is to be the leader in transportation.

-Detroit presents the right level of challenge— Detroit is broke and Detroit has a cold climate. If it can work in Detroit it can work anywhere.

It has been a long time coming, but we all know that the future of the automobile industry is in the hands of electric cars-- lets embrace that. If we don't think progressively than the city can never reclaim its international prowess.

The perfect time is here and now, there is no better place to reinvent transportation than where cars were first produced on a massive scale.

Detroit’s purpose now is to be the first major city in the world where electric transportation truly works. This kind of opportunity for a city has never come around before, so we have the chance to blaze a bold new path for the future. So Detroit really needs to embrace the technology of the future.

I want to know if this is a crazy idea, and I want to know if you think it can work and what will it take. Will anyone get behind me on this idea?

If anyone is from Detroit, I would love to hear what you think personally about my idea.

We all need to step up to climate change and turn it into an opportunity for Detroit at this point in its history. I want my generation to make it clear to our local and national government and business leaders that the time to act is now. I hope what I am saying here resonates; this will be the first spark of many, so let's light the fire. Spread the word!

As a 16 year old and Junior in high school I Thank you for the help. Let's rebuild the city together.

This Post is also on:
http://redd.it/2o03ux
http://www.topix.com/forum/detroit/T...572M2#lastPost

[ndavies]

So, where are you going to get the billions of dollars needed to do this?

It's costing $125 million to do 3 miles down Woodward. How much is it going to cost to electrify the other 4500 miles [[11,000 lane miles) of road in southeast Michigan.

How are you going to convince people to give up their internal combustion cars and pay more for something that runs on electric. Electric and hybrid car sales are in free fall now that Gasoline is under $3.00 a gallon and expected to drop another 50 cents in the next 2 months. Truck and SUV sales are surging.

[Gpwrangler]

So, where are you going to get the billions of dollars needed to do this?

It's costing $125 million to do 3 miles down Woodward. How much is it going to cost to electrify the other 4500 miles [[11,000 lane miles) of road in southeast Michigan.

How are you going to convince people to give up their internal combustion cars and pay more for something that runs on electric. Electric and hybrid car sales are in free fall now that Gasoline is under $3.00 a gallon and expected to drop another 50 cents in the next 2 months. Truck and SUV sales are surging.

Gasoline prices won't stay low. And electric vehicle sales are steady. Electric cars may only be a percentage of total vehicles; some people will pay even high fuel prices for the safety and capability of an SUV or pickup truck. But I think electrics and hybrids are here to stay despite myths about increased coal power plant pollution.

Shoot for a partial market. There are still a lot of applications where only an internal combustion engine will work.

[Wesley Mouch]

What do you mean by 'electric transpotation'? Most world cities transit run on electric power. I've yet to see a diesel-powered tram in Europe -- but I haven't visited Moscow. Streetcars, trams, high-speed rail, subways are predominant and all electric. So what's the idea here?

[guito13]

Maybe we should first focus on keeping the lights on?

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/p...troit/30017168

[DETGES]

So, where are you going to get the billions of dollars needed to do this?

It's costing $125 million to do 3 miles down Woodward. How much is it going to cost to electrify the other 4500 miles [[11,000 lane miles) of road in southeast Michigan.

How are you going to convince people to give up their internal combustion cars and pay more for something that runs on electric. Electric and hybrid car sales are in free fall now that Gasoline is under $3.00 a gallon and expected to drop another 50 cents in the next 2 months. Truck and SUV sales are surging.

The intent is not to install mass transit light rail like the M1 Project on Woodward, the purpose is to prepare the city for a surge of electric cars. So there won't be an up front cost like that; there will be a cost, but it won't be that much.

As another reply below had said, gas won't stay so cheep for ever, so the change will need to come eventually. It's a matter of being prepared when it happens or not being prepared and having 'the big three' suffer a crippling blow. Also no one would be forcing people to purchase electric cars, if they are available for purchase people will come.

[DETGES]

That is a great idea, I'll be sure to refocus on people who are not people in need of Trucks. For now, Trucks with combustion engine's are not killable, electric engines aren't powerful enough to take massive loads, but they are perfect for pretty much everything else

[ndavies]

Of course your suggestion is going to cost huge amounts of dollars. Even if you could persuade the region to give up internal combustion cars for electric, Where are you going to get the electricity to hang 3 Million+ cars onto the electric grid? Our electric grid doesn't have anywhere near that capacity. You're going to have to cover most of the region with solar cells or build new coal fired, gas or nuclear power plants. How are you going to provide enough electricity to a neighborhood to recharge all those vehicles without a major upgrade in the electrical grid?

[ndavies]

Gas prices over history always drop back to a inflation adjusted trend line. We have short term high prices which leads to new ways of extracting fuel, which leads to over production, which lead to price collapses just as we see now. Every time someone screams we have reached peak oil, prices rise and we find new ways to extract the oil that's there causing an oversupply and a price crash.

Every time someone has bet on Gasoline prices rising soon loose their shirts. It's happened over and over again since the mid 1800s with the exception of the world wars. If you adjust for inflation our fuel prices are headed back to that long term trend line.

http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/I..._Inflation.asp

[DETGES]

As I said above, the focus is not about bringing cars to people, it's about preparing the infrastructure, i.e. the electrical grid, so that it can support the 3+ Million cars you mentioned. So once the electrical infrastructure is created we can then move on to building car charging stations or what ever the future of transport holds.

It's not about persuading anybody to buy electric cars, when electric cars are widely available people will start to purchase them. So by first doing the legwork of rebuilding the electrical grid, we can move on towards production and further accommodation of electric cars.

[ndavies]

And you're completely wrong about trucks and the ability of electric motors to push them. You do know all the freight trains are pushed by electric motors. Freight trains work similar to the Chevy Volt. They run diesel generators that power the electric motors in the undercarriages of the train engine. The problem is not the strength of the electric motors. They can generate far more torque per pound than an internal combustion engine does. The problem with electric motors is storing enough electricity to spin those large electric motors for 350 miles.

[ndavies]

As I said above, the focus is not about bringing cars to people, it's about preparing the infrastructure, i.e. the electrical grid, so that it can support the 3+ Million cars you mentioned. So once the electrical infrastructure is created we can then move on to building car charging stations or what ever the future of transport holds.

It's not about persuading anybody to buy electric cars, when electric cars are widely available people will start to purchase them. So by first doing the legwork of rebuilding the electrical grid, we can move on towards production and further accommodation of electric cars.

Electric cars are available and continue to loose market share. Very few people want the damned things.

So once again, how are you going to fund the grid upgrades? I'm sure as shit not going to pay extra for over capacity on a grid I'm not sure anyone will ever use. Without people buying the cars why would a private company dump money into something they aren't sure is going to happen?

[Gpwrangler]

Electric cars are available and continue to loose market share. Very few people want the damned things.

So once again, how are you going to fund the grid upgrades? I'm sure as shit not going to pay extra for over capacity on a grid I'm not sure anyone will ever use. Without people buying the cars why would a private company dump money into something they aren't sure is going to happen?

Let the market decide when the upgrades are needed. There is quite a bit of capacity to charge cars at night, in the quantities that are currently selling. The grid might need repairs but that's a different issue.

[Gpwrangler]

And you're completely wrong about trucks and the ability of electric motors to push them. You do know all the freight trains are pushed by electric motors. Freight trains work similar to the Chevy Volt. They run diesel generators that power the electric motors in the undercarriages of the train engine. The problem is not the strength of the electric motors. They can generate far more torque per pound than an internal combustion engine does. The problem with electric motors is storing enough electricity to spin those large electric motors for 350 miles.

Big difference between a low friction train that carries enough fuel to go 1000 miles and a car that needs to accelerate. Combustion engines are really the only viable option for pickups, SUVs and trucks.

[ndavies]

An electric motor provides far more Torque by weight than an Internal combustion engine does. Torque Vs mass is the major factor in a vehicle accelerating. I used the freight train example to show the huge amounts of mass electric motors can pull. A truck with electric motors will out pull and out accelerate a similar truck with an internal combustion engine.

The problem isn't the amount of pull an electric motor has. Electric motors have a huge advantage in both total Torque output and where the torque is applied in the acceleration curve. The problem is the energy density of the stored fuels. Petroleum based fuels have a far higher energy density when stored than electricity in a battery has. The only reason we don't have electric trucks is because of the huge batteries they would require.

[DETGES]

The idea is to prepare Detroit for an electric future with a new electric based infrastructure [[i.e. a new electric grid... potentially). I don't have all the answers yet, I want to raise a group of people up to rebuild the city. Don't loose faith.

[DETGES]

Yes there is still innovation that needs to happen. I don't have all the answers, I want to rebuild the city. I'll bet you would love to as well. Don't loose faith.

[DETGES]

I'll bet every single person on this forum wants to help the city rebound.

It is going to be very hard, people are going to fight it.

Don't back down, don't loose faith.

[ndavies]

I'm not losing faith. I have much more faith in the city than you could ever imagine. I'm also an automotive engineer with over 30 years experience. I know exactly the issues that need to be addressed to convert our transportation system to electricity. I know it will still be just a dream long after I retire.

There are many groups already helping the city. Why don't you first look around and see what is being done, can be done now and join one of those groups. There are much higher priority projects that need to be done to bring the city back from the abyss. We need to spend money to fix the schools, Fix the crime rate, bring people up out of poverty and fix base level infrastructure of the city at the same time we lower tax rates. These things are mandatory for the city to recover. You could put all the new fangled technology you want into the city, but without making the city livable first, it will just be huge waste of money.

If you really want to help the city, Why don't you look for volunteer opportunities that you can do right now. Help someone learn how to read. Donate some time at a soup kitchen. Help mentor younger children. Volunteer to coach kids in an after school program. Volunteer to plant some tree with Greening of Detroit. Do things that will help the city now, not 30 years from now. Things that only cost your time and don't require a huge sum of money. Your time will be used more productively with short term reachable goals than spending it on a huge infrastructure project that is hugely expensive and depends completely on the whims of the free market.

[DETGES]

I know it will still be just a dream long after I retire.

'
I want to make that dream a reality, for you and everyone else in the city.

Spending money to fix schools, fix the crime rate, bring people out of poverty, and fixing the infrastructure are all issues that need to be fixed. These things are very important, but there will never be one will, or one group that will fix all of these things. But by repairing the electrical grid we can make the first step towards having businesses capitalize in new markets and bringing people and money into the city. People and money coming to the city work in tandem with the crime rate, property rate, and quality of schools because when we have money and people in the city crime goes down, poverty goes down, and schools will get better because a higher taxable population.

I am not offering all the answers, but I want to get a lot of people talking about it, which may then generate political support and perhaps interest from forward-looking business leaders who are interested in investing for the long-term in Detroit.

The city's infrastructure can make a major difference to help change the most major problems in the city. You have to always remember though, there will not be one swift action that will fix these problems, but we can try to make the first step. ;D

[JRB]

There are many issues facing Detroit-agreed.

The bold vision in this thread is not the whole answer, but it does create a vision for the long term and is timely.

It'd be great to hear from those more knowledgeable on any specifics that are needed for a movement towards large scale electric vehicle use. What is required and in what order?

Leave money out of it at this stage in this exercise.

Let's just dialogue on how it could happen. Technically and in terms of public buy-in and then political buy-in. It makes sense that something like this that is truly pushing the limits and hopefully moving our society on a new path could be part of Detroit's solution, setting an example for the continent and the world.

Maybe collectively through this dialogue a realistic plan can be developed that can lead to some seed funds and then more detailed plans.

[DETGES]

So the vision is about making Detroit the first major northern city to enable widespread use of electric cars and that the best time now for Detroit to ‘rise up’.

I am currently working with a climate scientist that has 1) inspired me to make the first step in solving this problem, and 2) showing me the issues that the city faces when it comes to the electric [[and green) future.
He says that in fact the problem is not the entire electric grid, but what we need to do is revamp the local aspect of the grid and not the transmission lines from power plants. So that would mean implementing high voltage DC electric lines.
But feasibility studies are needed first to see where the major hurdles are and what such a future would look like. That is where funds are needed first.

I'm glad you set this forum a bit more on track. This is what I had in mind.

[ndavies]

Wow, maybe you should give up on the climate scientist and talk to an electrical engineer. First you state that that there is no need to change out the transmission lines from the power plants and then you state we need DC electricity to implement the local charging structure. Do you understand the difference between DC and AC electricity? Do you understand there advantages and disadvantages? Do you understand that AC can Be converted to DC and vice versa? Do you understand the huge costs of what you're trying to do?

The only advantage DC electricity has over AC is it provides lower line losses in long distance electric delivery. Going DC only on the local lines completely cancels out any advantage of DC over AC. Going AC from the power plants and then converting to DC from the local grid completely ruins any advantages of using DC.

You do know changing the local grid over to DC would mean either building a complete second grid, forcing everyone on the grid to add a full house DC to AC convertor, or requiring the electric using customer to replace every single electrical appliance in their house. All of your home appliances run on AC.

You're talking about completely replacing the entire grid just so you can charge car batteries. How about we leave the grid alone and suffer through the minor inefficiency of converting AC to DC where the grid meets the car just like we do now.

If you're going to keep the plants and the interstate transmission line AC, you might as well keep the local grid AC

[ndavies]

The only things missing for the electrification of the vehicle infrastructure are:
1 Better Vehicles people will actually buy
2 more electric generation capacity [[could be Solar, wind, nuclear, natural gas, coal, or some new undiscovered power source.)
3 higher capacity electric lines strung to the places where car charging is to take place. [[DC Vs AC is completely irrelevant to the discussion.)

All technical problems that will only be solved by spending money on technical people that are creating solutions. [[Hence the governments big push in getting people into STEM education and careers.)

[DETGES]

Oops, my bad. I didn't mean to say DC.

I know the difference, I just miss wrote it as DC and not AC.