Salt Usage

[Willi]

Should the Metro-Detroit area reduce the use of salt ?

Road salts known under various chemical compounds sodium chloride, calcium chloride, potassium chloride,
magnesium chloride, and ferrocyanide salts) are toxic. In the USA deicing salt is considered a pollutant via National Pollutant Discharge Elimination System [[NPDES). Chloride concentrations [[salinity) in lakes across the USA have steadily increased over the past 50 years, compared a near zero concentration in the 1950s, when road salt application began upon the nations roadways.

Nearly 5 Million people live around Metro-Detroit, Michigan and another 5 Million people live around Windsor, Ontario. 10 MILLION people concentrated near Fresh Water Lakes; just in our little section of the geography…pass the salt ?

[Gpwrangler]

Snow doesn't melt by itself in this climate. We need to salt the roads when it snows, or stay home.

[scooter]

Where I am from in Northen michigan , They use sand on the roads,

[ghettopalmetto]

Where I am from in Northen michigan , They use sand on the roads,

Sand will provide some traction [[until it gets displaced, anyway), but doesn't melt ice.

[gazhekwe]

Salt won't melt ice below a 15 degrees F, either.

[Johnnny5]

Sand will provide some traction [[until it gets displaced, anyway), but doesn't melt ice.

Actually, in many situations sand does melt ice. I used sand for years on the long unpaved private road I used to live on and it was far superior in melting ice and providing traction. A light dusting of sand provided immediate traction and collected the heat from the sun to melt the snow and ice. I tried salt as well, and it worked, but I needed to use 4-5 times as much to provide the same results. Sand also provides traction is extreme cold, when it's at or below 20 degrees the effectiveness of salt is greatly reduced and when it gets a bit below 0 degrees it quits working altogether!

There's advantages and disadvantages to both.

[Johnnny5]

Snow doesn't melt by itself in this climate. We need to salt the roads when it snows, or stay home.

Or get snow tires! I'm not sure why, but winter specific tires are so often overlooked in here Michigan. IMO they are hands down the best thing one can add to their vehicle and for many will easily pay for themselves.

[scooter]

Thanks Johhny5
I knew sand did something besides traction. I know a few years back, some cities in Ohio were testing beer on the roads

[Willi]

Icelanders don't use salt to melt the snow in their country.

[mikeg19]

Three reasons salt is used rather than sand:

1) The problem with sand is it doesn't melt. It doesn't go away, and then you have a big mess on your hands cleaning the crap up once the weather warms up. The sand fills sewers, retention ponds, pipes, etc.
2)Sand doesn't melt ice. So yea, you get a little grit on the road from the sand, but it isn't really taking care of the problem of the ice.
3)The sand blows away from cars and trucks driving by quite easily, as well as from the wind.

Not to mention the amount of sand required to cover the same amount of area that salt does is astronomically more in volume.

[Gpwrangler]

Salt won't melt ice below a 15 degrees F, either.

Not it sure where this comes from, I keep hearing it. My driveway was salted and wet last winter at well below zero.

Roads can refreeze if enough snow falls to dilute the salt brine.

[iheartthed]

Three reasons salt is used rather than sand:

1) The problem with sand is it doesn't melt. It doesn't go away, and then you have a big mess on your hands cleaning the crap up once the weather warms up. The sand fills sewers, retention ponds, pipes, etc.
2)Sand doesn't melt ice. So yea, you get a little grit on the road from the sand, but it isn't really taking care of the problem of the ice.
3)The sand blows away from cars and trucks driving by quite easily, as well as from the wind.

Not to mention the amount of sand required to cover the same amount of area that salt does is astronomically more in volume.

I don't really buy this since many cities use sand on the roads [[I think New York mixes sand and salt). Michigan probably uses pure salt because it sits on an almost infinite supply of it.

[Gistok]

Anyone who lives or works in Ann Arbor knows full well the trade off for not having salt. Sometimes in the winter time it can take you 45 minutes to get from I-94 State Street up to the downtown area...

[313WX]

Or get snow tires! I'm not sure why, but winter specific tires are so often overlooked in here Michigan. IMO they are hands down the best thing one can add to their vehicle and for many will easily pay for themselves.

Most folks in Michigan don't have to deal with the type of snows that would justify purchasing snow tires...

[iheartthed]

Most folks in Michigan don't have to deal with the type of snows that would justify purchasing snow tires...

Aren't snow tires illegal in Michigan?

[Gpwrangler]

Aren't snow tires illegal in Michigan?

No, but most tires are already mud and snow rated. Studs are illegal in Michigan.

"snow tires" used to go on the rear drive wheels of a car. The newer front-wheel- drive crap would need four Blizzak or equivalent tires.

[Cliffy]

I don't really buy this since many cities use sand on the roads [[I think New York mixes sand and salt). Michigan probably uses pure salt because it sits on an almost infinite supply of it.

Well you better buy it because mikeg19 is 100% correct. Sand causes massive issues and that is why they vacuum all the catch basins up north in May.

[Johnnny5]

No, but most tires are already mud and snow rated. Studs are illegal in Michigan.

"snow tires" used to go on the rear drive wheels of a car. The newer front-wheel- drive crap would need four Blizzak or equivalent tires.

From what I have found there is a drastic difference between tires rated "Mud and snow" and winter specific tires. I run Michelin LTX MS2 [[Mud and snow) tires on my van in the Spring, Summer and Fall and then switch over to Michelin LTX Winter tires around this time of year. While the regular LTX MS2 tires do work in snow the LTX Winter tires are substantially better. The weird part is the tread pattern on both is identical! It's the compound of the rubber that is the difference. I would go as far to say that with quality winter specific tires the performance of a 4x2 truck would be close to matching the performance of a 4x4 truck with regular all season tires [[And the 4x2 with snows would stop much better).

Also with winter tires a set of 4 is always best, but just putting 2 on your drive tires [[Whether it be front or rear wheel drive) will improve traction. The problem with just using 2 on a front wheel drive is it can lead to issues with the back end wanting to come around when the front tires grip and the rears do not when braking hard.

Most folks in Michigan don't have to deal with the type of snows that would justify purchasing snow tires...

I have to disagree. Winter tires are not just useful in deep snow, but the softer compounds offer better stopping in cold weather, provide better ice traction and improved steering in quick stop situations. They make an amazing difference! Cost wise, a good set of winter tires can last for many seasons and reduce the wear of the regular all season set. I expect to get 5-7 winters out of my Winter tires and at the same time increase the life of my regular all season by at least 2 years. In my case the tires were $650 plus another $200 for a used set of steel rims, mounting and balancing. Spread that out over 5+ years and the increased life expectancy of my regular tires and I'm looking at barely $100 per Winter! For those with much smaller tires the cost would likely be even less. One avoided fender bender [[or worse) and they've easily paid for themselves. The best part it driving right past all those slipping on the ice and snow!

[Zacha341]

Seems I've heard that too... anyway I've never been able to afford two sets of tires so I go with all-season tires and us my over-drive and traction control on my car for extra grip as needed. And try to stay off roads when weather is super bad.

When I used to drive stick shift cars I rarely got stuck no matter what tire I had. I miss that.

Aren't snow tires illegal in Michigan?

[G-DDT]

If you go to Galena,IL. there is a big concern about Lead [[it washes up from the shores of the Mississippi River, it's in the soil, bullets used in the civil war ere made from the stuff panned there, etc.). Detroit is on an old Salt bed [[still remember when the salt mines were open to the public). This stuff gets in our air, our water, our soil-all up in our bodies and giving us psychotic, surly, "must-go-postal" anti-social hypertension. Time to load up on potassium, folks. Good thing some foods, like Better Maid Potato Chips, have a low-sodium alternative.

[Hypestyles]

pretty soon there will be a "sand shortage" and prices will go up 200%+ for counties to purchase it for use on the roads. Typical.

[Jimaz]

Should the Metro-Detroit area reduce the use of salt ?...

You sure do have access to a lot of interesting technical data.

Do you have any knowledge of sugar beet juice as a road de-icer? I'm having trouble finding any impartial information about that. I can't be sure the stories I'm finding aren't just an attempt to create a market for this byproduct.

[Jimaz]

If you go to Galena,IL. there is a big concern about Lead [[it washes up from the shores of the Mississippi River, it's in the soil, bullets used in the civil war ere made from the stuff panned there, etc.)....

Ha! That must be the origin of the name of the mineral.

No, it's the other way around. The city was named after the mineral.

Thanks! I learned something.

[canuck]

You sure do have access to a lot of interesting technical data.

Do you have any knowledge of sugar beet juice as a road de-icer? I'm having trouble finding any impartial information about that. I can't be sure the stories I'm finding aren't just an attempt to create a market for this byproduct.

I found this item on beet juice de-icing, Jimaz. I don't know how far along it's come since 2010, but they mention that an employee at a Michigan sugar production plant found out that beet juice had a lower cooling point which started the ball rolling, I guess.

http://www2.canada.com/story.html?id=3934734

Here in Montreal we have a lot of salt and even some mix of sand or gravel to speed de-icing on city streets. The snow tire law has been in effect a couple of years now and it seems to have made a difference in the number of accidents. I use ice tires as opposed to snow tires because in the city, the real problem is ice. Snow doesnt stay as long as in the country whereas last winter we had such cold weather with no let up that the freeze thaw was almost non existent from dec. 2013 to feb 2014.

http://www.saaq.gouv.qc.ca/en/road_s...ires/index.php

[Jimaz]

I found this item on beet juice de-icing, Jimaz. I don't know how far along it's come since 2010, but they mention that an employee at a Michigan sugar production plant found out that beet juice had a lower cooling point which started the ball rolling, I guess.

http://www2.canada.com/story.html?id=3934734....

Thanks, canuck.

... The juice used to be thrown away until an employee at a Michigan sugar-production plant discovered that beet juice doesn't freeze until the mercury goes very low -below minus 30 degrees Celsius, Shugar said....

[[Ironic name, Shugar.) That's -22° Fahrenheit. That sounds useful.

I recently read an article saying salt was going to be significantly more expensive this winter. A different article said Michigan had a bumper crop of sugar beets this year. Good timing!