Pipes Burst at Penobscot

**stinkytofu** · November-18-14, 10:37 AM

I just walked through the Penobscot and there is literally a freakin' waterfall in the lobby coming out of a light fixture. Spoke to someone who worked in the building who is really upset for a multitude of reasons including it's super cold. I wish I had my phone on me [[someone should go there) and had media contacts who could cover the terrible management of that building. Is there a worse building owner than APop?

**1953** · November-18-14, 10:46 AM

Andreas Apostolopoulos strikes again!

Should we start the petition to wrestle control of the Penobscot from him now or later?

1953

**southen** · November-18-14, 11:06 AM

at least he's consistent...

**MSUguy** · November-18-14, 12:11 PM

I didn't think anyone could best Dennis K in the shitty landlord Olympics. But Apop has been bringing it strong lately.

**Smirnoff** · November-18-14, 12:17 PM

Bump for the employee live scenic waterfall display.

**downtownguy** · November-18-14, 12:53 PM

I think he wants to destroy it enough with water damage so he can tear it down for a parking lot. Then, he can be a good-guy to the preservationists and save the State Savings Bank Building, using the former Penobscot site for parking.

**1953** · November-18-14, 01:06 PM

I'm beginning to think he's just anti-American, and has devoted his life to buying parts of the country and letting them devolve into dust.

Seriously, though, how does this guy maintain his wealth?

1953

**EastsideAl** · November-18-14, 01:16 PM

Hmmm... too much water damage and maintenance in that old building... but it would sure make a great spot for more parking!

Downtown Detroit:

**Hypestyles** · November-18-14, 04:54 PM

could the penobscot be renovated to be mostly residential?

**Bham1982** · November-18-14, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by Hypestyles

could the penobscot be renovated to be mostly residential?

The claim by most DYes folks is that's there's insatiable demand for high-end downtown living, so I don't see why not. Let's see this building get converted, seeing as its a half-empty office wreck. It's a fat building, though, so the floorplans would be long and narrow.

**davewindsor** · November-18-14, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by stinkytofu

Pipes Burst at Penobscot

I just walked through the Penobscot and there is literally a freakin' waterfall in the lobby coming out of a light fixture. Spoke to someone who worked in the building who is really upset for a multitude of reasons including it's super cold. I wish I had my phone on me [[someone should go there) and had media contacts who could cover the terrible management of that building. Is there a worse building owner than APop?

I'm not going to knock him just yet over a burst pipe. We don't even know if it was a burst pipe. For all we know, it could have been a faulty sprinkler head from the floor above. Those things are hard to shut off and do a lot of damage. Even the fire department has a hard time shutting those things off. And I thought old buildings in downtown like the Penobscott were heated by a central boiler run by the city. Ever wonder why there is steam coming from those grills along the sidewalks? Is it the landlord's fault or the city's fault if it's "super cold"?

Originally Posted by Bham1982

The claim by most DYes folks is that's there's insatiable demand for high-end downtown living, so I don't see why not. Let's see this building get converted, seeing as its a half-empty office wreck. It's a fat building, though, so the floorplans would be long and narrow.

Oh sure, follow the same plan the Book Tower did. That was 6 years ago. How's that idea coming along? At least if a historic building is partly rented, it's not going to follow the same fate of the Lafayette anytime soon.

**ABetterDetroit** · November-18-14, 10:57 PM

She's a awesome building and serves our skyline well. Sorry to hear that the owner won't take care of her.

**Bham1982** · November-19-14, 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

Oh sure, follow the same plan the Book Tower did. That was 6 years ago. How's that idea coming along? At least if a historic building is partly rented, it's not going to follow the same fate of the Lafayette anytime soon.

Well I didn't say I agree with the sentiment; just that it was the prevailing belief on DYes.

I think the subsidies needed to convert this building to residential would be mind-blowing. The Book Cadillac, a much smaller project, required hundreds of millions in subsidies from something like 20-25 separate sources, and, while beautiful, is not exactly a raging success.

**Gistok** · November-19-14, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Well I didn't say I agree with the sentiment; just that it was the prevailing belief on DYes.

I think the subsidies needed to convert this building to residential would be mind-blowing. The Book Cadillac, a much smaller project, required hundreds of millions in subsidies from something like 20-25 separate sources, and, while beautiful, is not exactly a raging success.

Um.... you really do need to start checking your facts.... the Book Cadillac is NOT a "much smaller project" than the Book Tower. In fact if you add the Book Building and Book Tower together, you probably get a building comparable in size to the massive Book Cadillac. Also the Book Cadillac was in HORRIBLE condition when it was rebuilt on the inside. The Book Tower is in nowhere near as bad condition. And your "hundreds of millions in subsidies".... really? You know this for a fact?

**Bham1982** · November-19-14, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Um.... you really do need to start checking your facts.... the Book Cadillac is NOT a "much smaller project" than the Book Tower.

We're talking the Penobscot Building. The Penobscot is much larger than Book-Cadillac. It's twice the square footage.

Originally Posted by Gistok

And your "hundreds of millions in subsidies".... really? You know this for a fact?

Yes. There were enormous subsidies given to the B-C project. I think there were 22 separate public funding sources, which is actually an incredible job done by the developer coordinating all those approvals.

The Book Cadillac is a project that everyone loves, has a beautiful outcome, and which makes not a lick of financial sense. It's a project that had to get done, regardless of cost.

**stinkytofu** · November-19-14, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Well I didn't say I agree with the sentiment; just that it was the prevailing belief on DYes.

I think the subsidies needed to convert this building to residential would be mind-blowing. The Book Cadillac, a much smaller project, required hundreds of millions in subsidies from something like 20-25 separate sources, and, while beautiful, is not exactly a raging success.

The Westin Book Cadillac in total cost less than $200 million to renovate so your proclamation that there were "hundreds of millions" in subsidies is, unsurprisingly, false.

**Bham1982** · November-19-14, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by stinkytofu

The Westin Book Cadillac in total cost less than $200 million to renovate so your proclamation that there were "hundreds of millions" in subsidies is, unsurprisingly, false.

Uh, I think you need to check your math. $200 million is hundreds of millions. The second developer had almost no skin in the game.

And the fact that you're arguing over whether $200 million should be characterized as "hundreds of millions" means you're just being argumentative. The fact is Book Cadillac was renovated courtesy of the taxpayer.

**stinkytofu** · November-19-14, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Uh, I think you need to check your math. $200 million is hundreds of millions. The second developer had almost no skin in the game.

And the fact that you're arguing over whether $200 million should be characterized as "hundreds of millions" means you're just being argumentative. The fact is Book Cadillac was renovated courtesy of the taxpayer.

I am being argumentative by pointing out you are factually wrong? Got it.

**Chloe** · November-19-14, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

She's a awesome building and serves our skyline well. Sorry to hear that the owner won't take care of her.

During the early to mid 90's I was employed at a financial institution that was a successor to City National Bank. I was astonished at the condition of the office facilities in our rented space. The main banking area which originally had beautiful woodwork, was all covered up and painted white! . Some of the offices on the mezzanine did still have the wood paneling intact. In the final days of the banks tenancy, the building management was removing the white paint in spots to show potential tenants. What a shame,

**Chloe** · November-19-14, 05:40 PM

The more comical thing that happened in the final days was the relocation of a boardroom table to the banks new facilities. There were two boardrooms in the space. One on the executive level [[level 5), and the main board room on the mezzanine. A crew came in to move the table in the mezzanine. This table was huge, and they figured out that the base would have to come off to get it out of the room. Once that was accomplished, they could not fit it in the elevator, or stairway. We jokingly told them to leave it [[it was not even wood, a 70's era monstrosity!). They finally decided to shut the elevator down, attach cables to the table, and lower it down'. They get it in the truck, drive to the new location, and were told they brought the wrong table! Management wanted the smaller wood table in the executive boardroom on 5.

**Jimaz** · November-19-14, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by Chloe

... They ... were told they brought the wrong table!...

That's comedy material right there. I hope they didn't have to put it back!

**Gistok** · November-19-14, 06:05 PM

Back when Manufacturers Bank was an independent bank... they had to do a similar scenario [[only in reverse) with the boardroom table when they took it to their new boardroom on the 38th floor of the 100 Tower at RenCen when it opened back in 1977. Never did figure out what happened to it afterwards. I imagine that the plush floors 38/39 in that 100 Tower are today the GM Boardroom... although that is just me speculating....

**Packman41** · November-19-14, 08:39 PM

Not to stray too far from the original topic, but I have attached a copy of an image from a 2008 report done by dBusiness magazine on the financing of the Westin Book Cadillac. Total debt and equity was $194.5 million.

I will leave it up to you to argue the semantics of what source constitutes as a subsidy. Let's just say that the original 1st mortgage on the hotel portion has gone through [[at least one) workout. None of the junior lenders on the hotel have received any payments. The loans from the two pension funds; $9 million from DGRS and $15 million from the DPFRS have been written off to ZERO. So is that a gift, a subsidy or what?2008 dBusiness Financial Package.pdf