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  1. #1

    Default Gasoline Prices Below Three Dollars. Who Should We Blame For This?

    The price is down, for now. I thought I'd pose the question, then sit back and watch the response. This should be fun...

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobl View Post
    The price is down, for now. I thought I'd pose the question, then sit back and watch the response. This should be fun...
    NPR said in a story yesterday, the Saudi's are doing it. Currently there is an overabundance of fuel. They will usually slow down or stop production to steadfast or increase pricing, this time they're keeping production up, driving prices down. No one is really sure of the reasoning behind it. The story is here:

    http://www.npr.org/2014/10/16/356588...cut-production

  3. #3

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    I heard on the radio this morning that an increase in fracking is a factor. However, the story didn't elaborate how.
    I guess the lack of speculators driving the price up like they did several years ago is a factor too.

  4. #4

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    Oil prices are falling because of changes in world supply and world demand. Demand has slowed because Europe is an economic wreck. But since 2008 the U.S. has increased our domestic supply by a gigantic 50 percent. This is a result of the astounding shale oil and gas revolution made possible by made-in-America technologies like hydraulic fracturing and horizontal drilling.
    Source:

    http://dailysignal.com/2014/10/26/ga...02714gasprices


    Now that the USA is a dominant player among the world's oil producers, OPEC members cannot cannot control the price of oil like they used to be able to do by reducing production.

  5. #5

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    Its the fault of those darn scientist and engineers and the (free) market. When whales were being slaughtered for whale oil to light homes, whales became scarcer and whale oil went up in price. Just about then, someone figured out how to extract crude oil and make kerosine. Same thing. If we could just get to electric cars, we could tell middle eastern dictators what to do with their oil. They wouldn't be able to finance Al Queda and IS anymore with our money. I realize though that if Al Gore could claim to have discovered the internet, surely, there must be a politician to credit for cheaper oil.

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by oladub View Post
    Its the fault of those darn scientist and engineers and the (free) market. When whales were being slaughtered for whale oil to light homes, whales became scarcer and whale oil went up in price. Just about then, someone figured out how to extract crude oil and make kerosine. Same thing. If we could just get to electric cars, we could tell middle eastern dictators what to do with their oil. They wouldn't be able to finance Al Queda and IS anymore with our money. I realize though that if Al Gore could claim to have discovered the internet, surely, there must be a politician to credit for cheaper oil.
    With respect to electric cars, since the US generates most of its electricity from fossil fuels (39% coal, 28% from natural gas and petroleum - source), this means problems are not solved, just shifted.

    Much has been made of the electric car's 90% energy efficiency versus the average of 26% for internal-combustion-powered vehicles.

    However, that 90% efficiency ignores the fact that two-thirds of the fossil fuel energy is lost in the generation and transmission of electricity to the end-user.

    For every 100 kW of fossil fuel energy consumed at the typical power generation plant, only 50 kW of electrical energy is produced. By the time that electricity is transmitted across the grid, that 50 kW has been reduced to 33kW. Energy losses during the electric vehicle's battery charging process use up another 3kW, so there is only about 30 kW of the original energy left once it is on-board and available to power the car. With a 90% efficiency, that means that another 10% of the energy is lost as the electric car converts the stored energy into motion, with the result that you actually use only about 27% of the original energy produced. (source)

    Until the engineers, scientists and the free market can develop renewable energy sources that are able to produce electricity in sufficient quantities at the times the consumers demand it, electric cars using carbon-based energy sources are really not much more energy efficient than their gasoline-powered cousins. Meeting this challenge (along with reducing the higher cost penalty for electric vehicles) is the limiting factor in being able to reduce our country's consumption of petroleum for transportation uses.
    Last edited by Mikeg; October-31-14 at 08:04 AM.

  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeg View Post
    With respect to electric cars, since the US generates most of its electricity from fossil fuels (39% coal, 28% from natural gas and petroleum - source), this means problems are not solved, just shifted.

    Much has been made of the electric car's 90% energy efficiency versus the average of 26% for internal-combustion-powered vehicles.

    However, that 90% efficiency ignores the fact that two-thirds of the fossil fuel energy is lost in the generation and transmission of electricity to the end-user.

    For every 100 kW of fossil fuel energy consumed at the typical power generation plant, only 50 kW of electrical energy is produced. By the time that electricity is transmitted across the grid, that 50 kW has been reduced to 33kW. Energy losses during the electric vehicle's battery charging process use up another 3kW, so there is only about 30 kW of the original energy left once it is on-board and available to power the car. With a 90% efficiency, that means that another 10% of the energy is lost as the electric car converts the stored energy into motion, with the result that you actually use only about 27% of the original energy produced. (source)

    Until the engineers, scientists and the free market can develop renewable energy sources that are able to produce electricity in sufficient quantities at the times the consumers demand it, electric cars using carbon-based energy sources are really not much more energy efficient than their gasoline-powered cousins. Meeting this challenge (along with reducing the higher cost penalty for electric vehicles) is the limiting factor in being able to reduce our country's consumption of petroleum for transportation uses.
    Costs very little to keep it charged, and the power plants are running anyway. If I could afford the car I would drive one in a heartbeat. I'd rather use domestically produced electricity than foreign oil anyway.

    The car charges in the evening when load on powerplants is at a minimum. And no one says power has to come from coal. We have nukes, too. Fire 'em up!
    Last edited by Gpwrangler; October-31-14 at 01:13 PM.

  8. #8
    Willi Guest

    Default

    Someone trying to kill the electric car market...by selling more trucks & muscle cars.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gpwrangler View Post
    Costs very little to keep it charged, and the power plants are running anyway. If I could afford the car I would drive one in a heartbeat. I'd rather use domestically produced electricity than foreign oil anyway.

    The car charges in the evening when load on powerplants is at a minimum. And no one says power has to come from coal. We have nukes, too. Fire 'em up!
    The output of a utility's powerplants has to be kept closely matched to the load placed on them by their customers at all times or the voltage will drop or spike. Therefore, if there is more demand from vehicles being charged at night, more power generation has to be brought on-line - it isn't like "the power plants are running anyway". Nighttime is also when you can least count on renewable sources, so you will have to rely on coal, natural gas, nukes (only 19% of annual power production) and hydro (7%).

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeg View Post
    The output of a utility's powerplants has to be kept closely matched to the load placed on them by their customers at all times or the voltage will drop or spike. Therefore, if there is more demand from vehicles being charged at night, more power generation has to be brought on-line - it isn't like "the power plants are running anyway". Nighttime is also when you can least count on renewable sources, so you will have to rely on coal, natural gas, nukes (only 19% of annual power production) and hydro (7%).
    Doesn't matter. It's still cheaper than gas. Cost is the deciding factor. I'd rather make DTE rich than the Saudis. When we need more power, we'll fire up more nukes.

    There's lots of electric car bullshit out there. I'll take one electric and one big Diesel, the bigger the better.

  11. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Willi View Post
    Someone trying to kill the electric car market...by selling more trucks & muscle cars.
    I think the reason it goes back down is to keep alternative technologies for taking hold.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gpwrangler View Post
    I think the reason it goes back down is to keep alternative technologies for taking hold.
    That sounds plausible.

  13. #13
    Willi Guest

    Default

    Not a doubt in my mind its is payed Protection - I call it illegal extortion

    The US has a long history of suppressing technologies
    in an effort to help government-aligned corporations to extend their profits.


    Georgia has a $5,000 income-tax credit for purchasing a battery-electric vehicle.
    Several thousand electric vehicles have now been sold in Georgia,
    and the state was ranked fourth in overall electric-car registrations for 2013.

    In an effort to spur interest in clean electric vehicle technology,
    Internal Revenue Code Section 30D (IRC 30D)
    is better-known to most people as
    “$7,500 electric vehicle tax credit.”
    Currently, IRC 30D provides buyers of electric vehicles
    a maximum of $7,500 dollars tax credit for that tax year.
    A maximum of 200,000 electric vehicles,
    per automaker, will continue to be subsidized
    until one year after that limit has been reached.
    All told, considering that 200,000 plug-in vehicles
    per automaker are covered by IC 30D,
    with a maximum of $7,500 rebate each,
    this might amount to a maximum of $15 billion.
    Last edited by Willi; November-01-14 at 12:06 PM.

  14. #14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeg View Post
    With respect to electric cars, since the US generates most of its electricity from fossil fuels (39% coal, 28% from natural gas and petroleum - source), this means problems are not solved, just shifted.

    Much has been made of the electric car's 90% energy efficiency versus the average of 26% for internal-combustion-powered vehicles.

    However, that 90% efficiency ignores the fact that two-thirds of the fossil fuel energy is lost in the generation and transmission of electricity to the end-user.

    For every 100 kW of fossil fuel energy consumed at the typical power generation plant, only 50 kW of electrical energy is produced. By the time that electricity is transmitted across the grid, that 50 kW has been reduced to 33kW. Energy losses during the electric vehicle's battery charging process use up another 3kW, so there is only about 30 kW of the original energy left once it is on-board and available to power the car. With a 90% efficiency, that means that another 10% of the energy is lost as the electric car converts the stored energy into motion, with the result that you actually use only about 27% of the original energy produced. (source)

    Until the engineers, scientists and the free market can develop renewable energy sources that are able to produce electricity in sufficient quantities at the times the consumers demand it, electric cars using carbon-based energy sources are really not much more energy efficient than their gasoline-powered cousins. Meeting this challenge (along with reducing the higher cost penalty for electric vehicles) is the limiting factor in being able to reduce our country's consumption of petroleum for transportation uses.
    My sons have EV's so I hear more about them than I want to sometimes. Neither would go back to gas engine again unless forced to. One has a Volt and one has an all electric car. Missing a turn of the expressway might mean getting stranded with the all electric vehicle. I had use of the Volt for a week which goes fora bout 45 miles on its battery. I couldn't even tell when it shifted to gas after the battery was discharged. My son pays 9 cent/kwh 9-9 and on weekends. He commutes 17 miles each way and seldom adds gas as he doesn't need gas for his commute. He calculates the cost of fuel is one quarter the cost of gasoline and doesn't miss pulling into gas stations. It has more acceleration than any car I've ever owned.

    There is about as much natural gas usage as coal to make electricity. Natural gas burns much cleaner than gasoline. Coal burning remission requirements keep getting improved. EV batteries are improving faster then internal combustion engines. The maximum efficiency of an internal combustion engine is about 25-30%. The rest goes away as heat. However, it takes energy to drill wells, pump oil, refine oil, and get it to market.

    It takes at least 4kwh of electricity just to refine a gallon of gas which can propel an EV for 16 miles. Then there are other energy costs not included. I once read that the US Navy was spending billions per year just to patrol the Persian Gulf in peace time. That's to keep the sea lanes open for oil. Neither the cost nor the energy the navy uses is included in gasoline efficiency. Figure 75% of the cost of the Iraq war attributable to keeping oil costs down and gasoline becomes more expensive.

    "you have enough electricity to power all the cars in the country if you stop refining gasoline. You take an average of 5 kilowatt hours to refine gasoline, something like the Model S can go 20 miles on 5 kilowatt hours. You basically have the energy needed to power electric vehicles if you stop refining." -Elon Musk

  15. #15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by oladub View Post
    My sons have EV's so I hear more about them than I want to sometimes. Neither would go back to gas engine again unless forced to. One has a Volt and one has an all electric car. Missing a turn of the expressway might mean getting stranded with the all electric vehicle. I had use of the Volt for a week which goes fora bout 45 miles on its battery. I couldn't even tell when it shifted to gas after the battery was discharged. My son pays 9 cent/kwh 9-9 and on weekends. He commutes 17 miles each way and seldom adds gas as he doesn't need gas for his commute. He calculates the cost of fuel is one quarter the cost of gasoline and doesn't miss pulling into gas stations. It has more acceleration than any car I've ever owned.

    There is about as much natural gas usage as coal to make electricity. Natural gas burns much cleaner than gasoline. Coal burning remission requirements keep getting improved. EV batteries are improving faster then internal combustion engines. The maximum efficiency of an internal combustion engine is about 25-30%. The rest goes away as heat. However, it takes energy to drill wells, pump oil, refine oil, and get it to market.

    It takes at least 4kwh of electricity just to refine a gallon of gas which can propel an EV for 16 miles. Then there are other energy costs not included. I once read that the US Navy was spending billions per year just to patrol the Persian Gulf in peace time. That's to keep the sea lanes open for oil. Neither the cost nor the energy the navy uses is included in gasoline efficiency. Figure 75% of the cost of the Iraq war attributable to keeping oil costs down and gasoline becomes more expensive.

    "you have enough electricity to power all the cars in the country if you stop refining gasoline. You take an average of 5 kilowatt hours to refine gasoline, something like the Model S can go 20 miles on 5 kilowatt hours. You basically have the energy needed to power electric vehicles if you stop refining." -Elon Musk
    I drove one for a few months and wish I could afford to keep one full time. Most of the arguments against were heavily partisan so I ignored them. I also ignored the environmentalists. Everything pollutes when you get right down to it. Seems people were worried about greenhouse gases from powerplants but that didn't stop them from running air conditioners, big screen TVs etc 24/7. People believe what's convenient.

    The percentage of true electric cars is not going to be high enough to worry about the grid, coal pollution, etc for quite awhile. I'm all for making US power companies rich. But I still need my big pickup truck for a second car.

  16. #16
    Willi Guest

    Default

    The oil and gas industry received $446.96 billion in cumulative energy subsidies
    from 1994 to 2009, whereas renewable energy sources received just $5.93 billion.
    No love from me for the Bush Family or Cheney family. They profited from dead bodies.

    Charging an electric vehicle with Solar Panels at private homes won't be happening any time soon.

  17. #17

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Willi View Post
    The oil and gas industry received $446.96 billion in cumulative energy subsidies
    from 1994 to 2009, whereas renewable energy sources received just $5.93 billion.
    No love from me for the Bush Family or Cheney family. They profited from dead bodies.

    Charging an electric vehicle with Solar Panels at private homes won't be happening any time soon.
    No need. Electricity is plentiful and cheap.

  18. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gpwrangler View Post
    No need. Electricity is plentiful and cheap.
    A new way of paying for roads such as higher registration or mileage fees will have to be created as more EVs, hybrids, and lower mileage cars replace cars paying a lot of gas tax. That will raise the cost of operating an EV and maybe all cars.

  19. #19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by oladub View Post
    A new way of paying for roads such as higher registration or mileage fees will have to be created as more EVs, hybrids, and lower mileage cars replace cars paying a lot of gas tax. That will raise the cost of operating an EV and maybe all cars.
    Just track mileage on all cars. The technology exists. Pay by usage. Problem solved.

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