Proposed Amtrak improvements - Pontiac/Detroit to Chicago

**Junjie** · October-29-14, 09:02 AM

A draft environmental impact statement was released today discussing plans to greatly improve Amtrak service between the Detroit area and Chicago [[and to all stops in between).

Full report here

Some quick details of the proposed service based on the top-level improvement scenario:

Trip time Detroit [[New Center) to Chicago reduced from 5:36 to 3:46, with 110mph service for the full route.
Increase service from 3 trips/day to 10 trips/day Detroit-Chicago, with 7 of those continuing to Pontiac.
New station buildings, platforms, parking, and/or other facilities at nearly every station along the route.
- At New Center, they propose a new building, two new platforms with overhead access, new parking structure, and new layover tracks [[presumably for the 7 "short trip" trains per day).
493,474 passengers rode this route in 2000, with 739,398 riding in 2012. Estimate for 2035 of 2,800,000 riders assuming 10 trains/day at 110mph.
Route stays the same except for a few routing options between Chicago and Indiana.
Also considering scenarios for continued 3 trains per day service [[but with the speed improvements) or 6 trains per day with the speed improvements.
Capital costs 2.37 to 2.98 billion dollars.

Apologies if this has already been discussed at some earlier stage of development. EDIT: And apparently there was a public meeting last night in Dearborn, so maybe I'm way behind on this. Was anyone there?

Seems like it's still early in the process but hoping for the best. My grandmother used this service for over a decade after she stopped driving Ann Arbor-Kalamazoo [[much to our relief), and I used it frequently as a kid to visit her on my own and to travel when I was a student at UM. At the proposed service level, I'm sure you'd also see a significant increase in business riders.

**mikeg19** · October-29-14, 11:11 AM

I don't know if it's possible, but there needs to be a dedicated passenger line in the Chicago area and Detroit area. It appears that the freight traffic is the main culprit to dismal on time service. They are already working on track improvements for higher speeds, but it realls doesn't matter if the train can go 500mph if it's stuck behind a mile long freight train chugging along.

Also as someone in the article stated, why not add a stop at Detroit Metro? Seems logical to interconnect it to the proposed line.

**DetroitPlanner** · October-29-14, 11:34 AM

The Ann Arbor to Detroit train includes a stop at Michigan and Merriman as well as bus connections to the airport. The reason why you can't use the track just S of I-94 is that it heads to Adrian; and will by pass the stations at Dearborn, Ann Arbor the future Ypsi station and probably Jackson, Battle Creek and K-zoo [[unless they spend billions more for ROW and to put in a connector). A stop is planned, and while not ideal, it gets us closer to what is needed.

A big hurdle that still needs to be overcome is that you have many at grade crossings and running a train at that speed is just not safe. Those will need to either be closed, be grade separated [[bridges), or have some impassable gates installed [[and maintained). There is just not enough money for those improvements as evidenced by the lousy roads and transit we currently have.

**Wesley Mouch** · October-29-14, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

The Ann Arbor to Detroit train includes a stop at Michigan and Merriman as well as bus connections to the airport. The reason why you can't use the track just S of I-94 is that it heads to Adrian; and will by pass the stations at Dearborn, Ann Arbor the future Ypsi station and probably Jackson, Battle Creek and K-zoo [[unless they spend billions more for ROW and to put in a connector). A stop is planned, and while not ideal, it gets us closer to what is needed.

A big hurdle that still needs to be overcome is that you have many at grade crossings and running a train at that speed is just not safe. Those will need to either be closed, be grade separated [[bridges), or have some impassable gates installed [[and maintained). There is just not enough money for those improvements as evidenced by the lousy roads and transit we currently have.

Not a logical statement. We can decide this is important and float bonds to get the cash -- if this really makes sense. Money is not now, and has never been our problem. Management of, and decisions about best use of money has been our problem.

**rex** · October-29-14, 12:44 PM

Thats great and all but have they proposed a timeline? In July I took the train to and from Chicago. There wasn't too bad but returning home was painful. Stopped in front of US. Cellular for an hour and fifteen minutes. Stopped in Indiana twice for a combined hour and a half. Should have been home at 9:45 and rolled in closer to midnight.

**DetroitPlanner** · October-29-14, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Not a logical statement. We can decide this is important and float bonds to get the cash -- if this really makes sense. Money is not now, and has never been our problem. Management of, and decisions about best use of money has been our problem.

Okay who will float the bonds? All local communities, counties, and the State have hit their debt ceilings? Money is precisely the problem. Who has the money for the airport? Romulus? Wayne County? MDOT? NO!

**professorscott** · October-29-14, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Okay who will float the bonds? All local communities, counties, and the State have hit their debt ceilings? Money is precisely the problem. Who has the money for the airport? Romulus? Wayne County? MDOT? NO!

I don't know; we seem to have billions of dollars to waste on widening freeways. This is a matter of political will and priorities. Can we do this and widen freeways? Probably not. Can we do this or widen freeways? I think probably yes.

By the way the 110 mph speed is precisely the maximum allowed when you have at-grade crossings. To go truly high speed would require closing off or bridging/tunneling all crossings, and that's where the money becomes a real issue.

**Gpwrangler** · October-29-14, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

A big hurdle that still needs to be overcome is that you have many at grade crossings and running a train at that speed is just not safe. Those will need to either be closed, be grade separated [[bridges), or have some impassable gates installed [[and maintained). There is just not enough money for those improvements as evidenced by the lousy roads and transit we currently have.

The high speed train is just as deadly as a 20mph freight train if you go around the gates. Crossings can be upgraded later.

**DetroitPlanner** · October-29-14, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by Gpwrangler

The high speed train is just as deadly as a 20mph freight train if you go around the gates. Crossings can be upgraded later.

Said the man that lives in the Utopian non-litigious society.

**DetroitPlanner** · October-29-14, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by professorscott

I don't know; we seem to have billions of dollars to waste on widening freeways. This is a matter of political will and priorities. Can we do this and widen freeways? Probably not. Can we do this or widen freeways? I think probably yes.

By the way the 110 mph speed is precisely the maximum allowed when you have at-grade crossings. To go truly high speed would require closing off or bridging/tunneling all crossings, and that's where the money becomes a real issue.

That is the key political will. Right now you can't spend as much highway money on other transportation projects as people assume. It is all about how both federal and state laws slice the pie.

**Gpwrangler** · October-29-14, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Said the man that lives in the Utopian non-litigious society.

I've lived in places with no gates at all, and managed to survive somehow.

**lpg** · October-29-14, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by rex

Thats great and all but have they proposed a timeline? In July I took the train to and from Chicago. There wasn't too bad but returning home was painful. Stopped in front of US. Cellular for an hour and fifteen minutes. Stopped in Indiana twice for a combined hour and a half. Should have been home at 9:45 and rolled in closer to midnight.

Not much has changed. In late 1978 my wife and I took the train to Chicago. Our trip there went well. The return trip was nightmare. It took almost 12 hours. We were told not to use the toilets as they were full. No food available. And my wife was pregnant at the time.

**Downriviera** · October-29-14, 09:46 PM

I was in China a few weeks ago and rode their high speed rail from Shanghai to Wuhan, just under 500 miles. Trip took 5 hours and there were probably 10 stops of 5 minutes each. I also rode the Maglev, the magnetic train, from Shanghai to the airport. Distance was about 30 miles and took 7 minutes with top speed of 268 mph. Amazing.

**Hermod** · October-30-14, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Said the man that lives in the Utopian non-litigious society.

Congress ought to pass a law which permits a "you dumb shit" defense in court of a tort suit.

**XDetroitr** · October-30-14, 12:31 PM

Even though we are the wealthiest country on earth, we have the lowest level of political will or public support to improve high-speed mass transit of any industrialized country. I would be [[happily) amazed if anything proposed on that report actually happens in the next 10 years. Especially since this being the Mid-West where car is still king. I live in the NYC area where over 90% of AMTRAK's revenue comes from the Northeast Corridor travel. They have been unable to improve the Boston-NYC-Washington timetables to any significant amount.

**lpg** · October-30-14, 02:41 PM

I think the public is skeptical of government projects in general. So many of these projects turn into money pits. Cost over runs, poor workmanship, corruption. The public just sees their hard earned and heavily taxed money just squandered.

**ghettopalmetto** · October-30-14, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by lpg

I think the public is skeptical of government projects in general. So many of these projects turn into money pits. Cost over runs, poor workmanship, corruption. The public just sees their hard earned and heavily taxed money just squandered.

Referring to anything specific? Or just repeating a catchy soundbite you heard?

I'm skeptical of people who make shit up to suit their ideology. The government, I'm okay with.

**Gistok** · October-30-14, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Referring to anything specific? Or just repeating a catchy soundbite you heard?

I'm skeptical of people who make shit up to suit their ideology. The government, I'm okay with.

Well there is the one POSTER CHILD of government misspending... one so absurdly over budget and so appalling that it really gave a bad name to government spending... The Big Dig... in Boston...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Dig

**DetroitPlanner** · October-30-14, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Well there is the one POSTER CHILD of government misspending... one so absurdly over budget and so appalling that it really gave a bad name to government spending... The Big Dig... in Boston...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Dig

Thank god it is only one.

**maverick1** · October-30-14, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by XDetroitr

Even though we are the wealthiest country on earth, we have the lowest level of political will or public support to improve high-speed mass transit of any industrialized country. I would be [[happily) amazed if anything proposed on that report actually happens in the next 10 years. Especially since this being the Mid-West where car is still king. I live in the NYC area where over 90% of AMTRAK's revenue comes from the Northeast Corridor travel. They have been unable to improve the Boston-NYC-Washington timetables to any significant amount.

Considering the similar economis I would think some type of rail b/w upstate/western NY and Chicago would make sense. Detroit's economic tentacles reaches all through the Great Lakes so something similar to the Boston-NYC-Washington rail lines would be good. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Cleveland-Detroit-Chicago region second in density to Boston-NYC-Washington?

**maverick1** · October-30-14, 03:58 PM

I hope there is an express line. There should be a few trains you can catch daily that are non-stop.

**professorscott** · October-30-14, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by maverick1

I hope there is an express line. There should be a few trains you can catch daily that are non-stop.

Every train is nonstop if you're getting off at the next station.

**BagAJellyDonuts** · October-30-14, 09:07 PM

Want to see something like this built? IMO do a few things. First off, take the CAFE legislation and admit what a failure it is and throw it away. Then raise fuel taxes. That would more than make up for what CAFE has failed to do. Then you might just be able to fund the improvements in rail and other structure.

It will never happen. Just look at the idiots from both parties we have to choose from. They won't admit to needing an energy policy but they will lie about everything to get elected.

**bibs** · October-30-14, 11:25 PM

I'm confused by this article. It reads like a new project but many of the objectives will be resolved by projects that are underway or completed.
The West Detroit Connector track started at the end of September. http://www.michigan.gov/som/0,4669,7...8445--,00.html
The track between Kalamazoo and Dearborn is being upgraded so trains can travel at 110 mph. Trains on the stretch of track between Kalamazoo and Porter, IN have been running at 110 mph for years. The track between Detroit and Dearborn is double so there is no interference with rail traffic.
The Indiana Gateway Project kicked off this summer to eliminate the most congested rail intersection in the US at Porter, IN. This project will also add a dedicated passenger rail line from Porter, IN to the Illinois border.
The Englewood Flyover which allows 70 Metra commuter trains to go over the top of rail lines shared by NS and Amtrak was completed at the beginning of October which will eliminate delays.

**XDetroitr** · October-31-14, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by maverick1

Considering the similar economis I would think some type of rail b/w upstate/western NY and Chicago would make sense. Detroit's economic tentacles reaches all through the Great Lakes so something similar to the Boston-NYC-Washington rail lines would be good. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Cleveland-Detroit-Chicago region second in density to Boston-NYC-Washington?

I completely agree... but the political realities will not let this happen. Republicans generally hate mass transit since most of the people who use it are either poor or liberal Urbanites. Not their voting base.