Killed outside cigar bar on Cadillac Square

[DetroitPlanner]

Not real good for those who think downtown in safe.

I wonder if Gilbert's cameras saw anything? I don't think he owns anything on that block.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/m...oting/29340928

[detroitbob]

There are omnidirectional scanning cameras on the corner of the First Nat'l garage at Congress and Bates and might offer some clues to the get away vehicle. As for the safety of Downtown, please review the situation...
...the incident happened @ 1:55 am after leaving a place that according to a variety of sources has been a source of trouble in the area. Police presence tonite [[Saturday) looked heavy in the area. Sounds like another "dsrespectin" issue. A Facebook post indicated the bar incident started cause someone stepped on someone else's footware...yes, over stepping on someone's shoes. Who hasn't had their toes stepped on in a crowded bar? You can be sure the place will be under surveillance by DPD and as a result the MI LCC. The owners of the building, [[who I believe own Greenwich Time) should realize situations like this could affect their business and that of the newly reopened Checker Bar and review the issues regarding the operation of this bar with their tenant.

[corktownyuppie]

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/m...oting/29340928

Not real good for those who think downtown in safe.

I wonder if Gilbert's cameras saw anything? I don't think he owns anything on that block.

I still stand by my position...it's not that certain locations aren't safe, it's that certain people aren't safe.

http://motorcitymuckraker.com/2014/1...arly-saturday/

The cigar bar has a reputation for having an unruly audience, requiring pat-downs at the door. No one was at the bar Saturday evening for comment. But neighbors said the bar has attracted trouble for years.

Shut this place down.

[401don]

I'm sure 7-11 must be thinking nothing has changed after all.

[Honky Tonk]

I still stand by my position...it's not that certain locations aren't safe, it's that certain people aren't safe.

http://motorcitymuckraker.com/2014/1...arly-saturday/



Shut this place down.[/FONT][/COLOR]

That certainly would be a solution, but the perps would eventually just move somewhere else. How do you change this attitude that an article of clothing is worth more than someone's life? That's the big question.

[Zacha341]

^^^ That article points out that routine 'pat-downs' due to the 'unruly' crowds was enforced at this joint. I avoid places that require pat-downs as that speaks to the clientele.

[Gpwrangler]

The people they interviewed on the street said they still felt safe because this was between two people. Smh.

[Mark Smiles]

Step 1. Suppose the people who committed this murder are arrested and convicted of the crime, and sent to prison.

Step 2. Their presence in prison will then be used by the “community activist types” to calculate an increase in the percentage of African-Americans in prison. [[What is the percentage who did not know they were breaking the rules in the first place?)

Step 3. The “community activist types” will use this percentage to “show” how those in prison are merely victims of a white racist society. [[Note how the murdered victim is no longer any concern of the “community activist types”.)

Why bother with Step 1 in the first place, as this will help keep down the percentages, and please the “community activist types”, and isn’t that what is really important in the first place?

[corktownyuppie]

That certainly would be a solution, but the perps would eventually just move somewhere else. How do you change this attitude that an article of clothing is worth more than someone's life? That's the big question.

You are right that it is the bigger and more important question. And, I'm not sure of the answer, and I don't know if any one person has the answer.

It points to the meta-question... how can you change the social norms of a culture/society? How do you take a culture that has only known dictatorship to embrace the responsibility of a republic or a democracy? How do you take a culture that values strength and muscle to embrace knowledge and intellect? How do you convince a society to forbid child brides and female circumcision? How do you take a culture that values greed and materialism to balance human compassion? How do you take a culture where a 20-minute delay is normal and have them embrace the German attitudes of punctuality, where you can throw away your watch and tell time by watching when the buses arrive?

It's a hard question.

But one part of that solution has to be stifling and choking away the options. For example, look at the attitudes about smoking in the last 50 years. Through slow, gradual change, smoking will be all but eliminated in the US within the next few generations without ever having to make it illegal.

And so one after another, businesses which cater to a violent subset of people need to be shut down until eventually, there's no longer a business case to open it up to begin with.

[313WX]

You can't prevent all crimes.

However, better policing and improved government code/zoning enforcement is the solution to decrease the probability of said crimes happening and certain businesses from opening in the future, not shutting down established taxpaying businesses because one doesn't like their model or the type of clientale they attract.

A big city's downtown like Detroit's SHOULD consists of residential, commercial and even industrial places that serves people from all sorts of backgrounds, as diversity is part of what makes an urban environment attractive.

[corktownyuppie]

But you can prevent some crimes.

Is your take on this that it was an unpreventable incident?

[313WX]

But you can prevent some crimes.

Is your take on this that it was an unpreventable incident?

I'm sorry, see my edited post.

It was incomplete.

It's just unrealistic to expect that these types of crimes won't happen. You have to look at it from another perspective. This killing is just one out of how many in downtown recently?

[MSUguy]

Step 1. Suppose the people who committed this murder are arrested and convicted of the crime, and sent to prison.

Step 2. Their presence in prison will then be used by the “community activist types” to calculate an increase in the percentage of African-Americans in prison. [[What is the percentage who did not know they were breaking the rules in the first place?)

Step 3. The “community activist types” will use this percentage to “show” how those in prison are merely victims of a white racist society. [[Note how the murdered victim is no longer any concern of the “community activist types”.)

Why bother with Step 1 in the first place, as this will help keep down the percentages, and please the “community activist types”, and isn’t that what is really important in the first place?

Nice. Using this tragedy to excuse your racism, because we know inequality in the justice system is just something made up by "community activist types".

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...n-nine-charts/

[Honky Tonk]

You are right that it is the bigger and more important question. And, I'm not sure of the answer, and I don't know if any one person has the answer.

It points to the meta-question... how can you change the social norms of a culture/society? How do you take a culture that has only known dictatorship to embrace the responsibility of a republic or a democracy? How do you take a culture that values strength and muscle to embrace knowledge and intellect? How do you convince a society to forbid child brides and female circumcision? How do you take a culture that values greed and materialism to balance human compassion? How do you take a culture where a 20-minute delay is normal and have them embrace the German attitudes of punctuality, where you can throw away your watch and tell time by watching when the buses arrive?

It's a hard question.

But one part of that solution has to be stifling and choking away the options. For example, look at the attitudes about smoking in the last 50 years. Through slow, gradual change, smoking will be all but eliminated in the US within the next few generations without ever having to make it illegal.

And so one after another, businesses which cater to a violent subset of people need to be shut down until eventually, there's no longer a business case to open it up to begin with.

It is a hard question, and, as you pointed out, neither myself nor anyone else has a solid answer. I do know there are factions, that by condoning, encourage this sort of lifestyle and retaliation. I also don't think a legitimate business owner opens establishment to cater to this type of clientele. For some reason, they are drawn to it, then ruin it for everyone, including the owners.

[Zacha341]

Then take goodness for the trajectory precision of the bullets......

The people they interviewed on the street said they still felt safe because this was between two people. Smh.

[ABetterDetroit]

You are right that it is the bigger and more important question. And, I'm not sure of the answer, and I don't know if any one person has the answer.

It points to the meta-question... how can you change the social norms of a culture/society? How do you take a culture that has only known dictatorship to embrace the responsibility of a republic or a democracy? How do you take a culture that values strength and muscle to embrace knowledge and intellect? How do you convince a society to forbid child brides and female circumcision? How do you take a culture that values greed and materialism to balance human compassion? How do you take a culture where a 20-minute delay is normal and have them embrace the German attitudes of punctuality, where you can throw away your watch and tell time by watching when the buses arrive?

It's a hard question.

No it's not. You change behavior in a civilized society with the enforcement of law.

Enforce the weapons laws we already have and make them tough with teeth! Mandatory minimums on gun charges, No bail on gun charges, NO parole on convictions under gun charges. These are things we can do right now immediately with out changing the constitution. Children and young people are getting killed in droves and everyone knows that the vast majority are crimes committed with ILLEGAL guns carried on persons or in vehicles, why is that NOT considered a major felony? Nothing ever good is going to happen when people with criminal records can walk/drive around with guns, It's just a matter of when something bad happens. Make it so anyone including criminal types think twice about touching Illegal guns because the penalty is so severe. Violent criminals should be in jail. If you carry guns illegally you are acting violent towards society.

[313WX]

The people they interviewed on the street said they still felt safe because this was between two people. Smh.

And what's the problem with their opinion of the incident? It seems logical to me. I'm not going to flee to 23 mile road and avoid Detroit altogether just because one person was killed [[especially without considering the context of the situation).

The folks that scare me the most are the reactionaries who automatically want to resort to extreme solutions simply out of what's likely an unfounded basis for fear.

[canuck]

Then take goodness for the trajectory precision of the bullets......

Either that or they made sure not to step on anybody's Air Jordans...

[Gpwrangler]

And what's the problem with their opinion of the incident? It seems logical to me. I'm not going to flee to 23 mile road and avoid Detroit altogether just because one person was killed [[especially without considering the context of the situation).

The folks that scare me the most are the reactionaries who automatically want to resort to extreme solutions simply out of what's likely an unfounded basis for fear.

I'm not going to flee either but I'm not going to make asinine statements like "it was between two people so I'm safe" lol.

[Zacha341]

Just another reason to smoke ones cigars and drink at home with family and friends [[so long as they're not nutso too!)

Either that or they made sure not to step on anybody's Air Jordans...

[canuck]

Just another reason to smoke ones cigars and drink at home with family and friends [[so long as they're not nutso too!)

Eggsactly.