Legal money laundering DWSD

[Willi]

A federal judge ruled - Detroit can exchange at least $1.67 billion
of its water and sewer debt for new bonds.

The three biggest credit raters made a choice,
to lower their grades on the bonds to junk.
The refinancing saves Detroit $11.4 million a year
for the first 19 years of the deal.

https://www.bondcompro.com/dashTNA0/1/dashTickerTNA.asp

In effect , Detroit gets to borrow money,
through new securities with lower interest rates,
using the savings to bolster the finances of the bankrupt city.

The Michigan Finance Authority will issue new debt
with lower interest rates to purchase the tendered securities.
http://www.michigan.gov/snyder/0,160...0280--,00.html

Lets call a spade , a spade here , okay !
Junk City bonds were swapped out for STATE bonds - laundering money
It's a Shell Game , manipulating the investment grades for a broken system at DWSD.
The broken system remains in place, as DWSD changed nothing, nothing at all.

“The city is hoping to avoid the characterization of its DWSD restructuring as a default
--by having bondholders agree to be defaulted upon,” according to the MMA report.
The plan is “attempting to walk a very technical line in rating agency definitions
of ‘default’ and ‘distressed exchange.’”

The taxpayers of Michigan, all 10 million of us, get the privledge of bailing out Detroit;
using the State of Michigan Treasury aka Michigan Finance Authority.

Governor Snyder is an accountant, first and foremost, along with being a venture capitalist !
He was employed with Coopers & Lybrand, from 1982 to 1991,
beginning in the tax department of the Detroit office.

[jt1]

How exactly are residents of the state getting cheated? The bonds will still be paid by dwsd revenues. This is equivalent to someone co-signing. Yes, if dwsd defaults the state may get hit but dwsd has not defaulted on any bonds and has a steady revenue stream.

Does the term 'dwsd' just turn people into conspiracy theorists?

[Willi]

Default = Junk bond status ----- at least in my book

News Media called it JUNK -- YEP a BB-minus rating
http://www.freep.com/article/2013070...-ratings-Water

Lawyers seem to use that technicality and the wording -- distressed exchange -----

[jt1]

Default = Junk bond status ----- at least in my book

Your book is incorrect. Junk does not equate to default. Any other examples of how people in Michigan are on the hook for this?

[Willi]

My book, ie. my head is screwed on just right.
JUNK bonds are a non-investment grade bond, by any brokers definition.
They have a very HIGH default risk, they are HIGHLY speculative.
A default due to bankruptcy - kills the bonds value entirely

Syner pulled a fast one on ALL the residents of this state.

http://bridgemi.com/2014/07/
""After Detroit exits bankruptcy,
a State Financial Review Commission will have authority
to approve the mayor and council’s four-year budgets,
approve sizeable contracts, approve collective bargaining agreements
and report to the governor twice a year for the next 13 years.
--This powerful, nine-member commission, created as part of a
“grand bargain” with state leaders, is intended to protect nearly
$200 million in state funding to Detroit by ensuring that
city leaders budget money responsibly.
--But experts say the commission’s credibility and effectiveness
could be blunted if it’s perceived as blocking the ability of
Detroit’s democratically elected officials to run the city.
--If not handled delicately, these experts say, the commission
could face the same old political fighting
that has scared away residents,
businesses and progress.""

[jt1]

My book, ie. my head is screwed on just right.
JUNK bonds are a non-investment grade bond, by any brokers definition.
They have a very HIGH default risk, they are HIGHLY speculative.
A default due to bankruptcy - kills the bonds value entirely

Syner pulled a fast one on ALL the residents of this state.

Correct, junk bonds are not investment grade to investors. They also have a high rate of default.

DWSD bonds, however have the backing of the DWSD revenue stream. The bonds themselves were not being reduced in the Detroit bk as they are secured with the revenue from ratepayers/dwsd.

So, again, how are the residents of Michigan on the hook for anything? Perhaps it may help if you get your tinfoil hat out first.

[Willi]

Detroit will default on its October 1 general obligation bond payments,
making it one of the largest cities to default on such a payment since the Great Depression.

The October default will mean a fresh downgrade from Fitch Ratings,
which said last week it would push the junk-rated bonds to D.

"""Backing of revenue from DWSD customers....hah aha ha ha ahhaha """
People simply don't pay their water bills, and that includes numerous commercial accounts....

MORE IMPORTANTLY......the bonds are now STATE BONDS issued by the STATE,
and we are all on the hook when it falls in the toilet as DWSD will continue to fail

[jt1]

You are confusing Detroit city GO bonds and DWSD bonds. Perhaps you should check to see how much secured bonds are getting in the proposed POA.

Clearly you don't understand and just want to bitch so have at it.
Is this all because you are pissed that your water bills may go up a dollar or two now that there is a proposal for a regional authority?

Really, let's hear your agenda for being so irrational in this discussion.

So, to be as clear as possible:
1. The GO bonds the city quit paying are not secured.
2. The DWSD bonds are secured
3. The DWSD bonds are backed by DWSD revenue and not obligations to the general city.

[jt1]

Regarding your link: Do you know what the DWSD annual revenues are and what percent is delinquent? Of course you don't. That would require facts and rational thought.

[Willi]

Which facts and thought are you using Jt1 - the ones that say Detroit bailed itself out ?

DWSD is a mess, needs housecleaning, massive layoffs, and some re-structuring

http://www.corvuswire.com/us-news/ba...-million/3588/

[jt1]

Which facts and thought are you using Jt1 - the ones that say Detroit bailed itself out ?

DWSD is a mess, needs housecleaning, massive layoffs, and some re-structuring

http://www.corvuswire.com/us-news/ba...-million/3588/

Those bonds are for city operations. Completely separate entity that dwsd. Surely you can't be this dense. You do understand that city operations and dwsd are separate entities, have separate bonds, separate mgmt structures, etc.

Next try please.

[jt1]

I agree dwsd is poorly run but that has nothing to do with any of your claims.

[Willi]

MOST of what I wrote came off the pages of Crains, Moody's, Bloomberg, etc.
Where does your stuff come from, Blue Moon enterprises or some other made up entity.

As sure as Shinola, the MFA [[Michigan Financial Authority) aka The State,
in effect , restructured, refinanced, and issued the bail out of Detroit.

http://www.michigan.gov/treasury/0,4...5285--,00.html

Security is often a myth created with smoke and mirrors.
It often collapses suddenly and with little prior warning, like an unstable house of cards.
When someone says the bonds are secure - be sure to ask -- with what exactly ?

[jt1]

All of your references are in regards to CoD bonds and issues in CoD. Clearly you do 't get dwsd and CoD are separate entities but keep on trolling.

[corktownyuppie]

Lets call a spade , a spade here , okay !
Junk City bonds were swapped out for STATE bonds - laundering money

You lost all your credibility with this statement. is this what you think money laundering is? With 15 years in the investment industry I can say with confidence that what you are describing is nothing like and has nothing to do with the laundering of money.

DWSD is now being controlled by a new authority. The new board have may have some of the old players on it but that does not change the fact that suburban interests will have a new level of control they have never had before. This new authority has access to state lending. The old DWSD did not. So they refinanced their debt just like someone might refinance their mortgage with better credit once they find a co signer.

Very simple.
Let's end the conspiracy theories and work on finding the best way to make the authority work for the ratepayers in SE Michigan.

[ABetterDetroit]

You lost all your credibility with this statement. is this what you think money laundering is? With 15 years in the investment industry I can say with confidence that what you are describing is nothing like and has nothing to do with the laundering of money.

DWSD is now being controlled by a new authority. The new board have may have some of the old players on it but that does not change the fact that suburban interests will have a new level of control they have never had before. This new authority has access to state lending. The old DWSD did not. So they refinanced their debt just like someone might refinance their mortgage with better credit once they find a co signer.

Very simple.
Let's end the conspiracy theories and work on finding the best way to make the authority work for the ratepayers in SE Michigan.

Thanks CTY, you saved me a lot of trouble on a long post on the differences between money laundering and a refi. Tough break OP on your dream of the national guard taking over DWSD.

[corktownyuppie]

Thanks CTY, you saved me a lot of trouble on a long post on the differences between money laundering and a refi. Tough break OP on your dream of the national guard taking over DWSD.

No problem. I can't wait until I money launder 30-yr 4.1% mortgage into a new 3.5% 15-year mortgage. It's too good to be true, I can't believe this is legal!

Just for the record, I am not a homer for DWSD. I've thought they needed new management for over 10 years.

[ABetterDetroit]

No problem. I can't wait until I money launder 30-yr 4.1% mortgage into a new 3.5% 15-year mortgage. It's too good to be true, I can't believe this is legal!

Just for the record, I am not a homer for DWSD. I've thought they needed new management for over 10 years.

Lol, I will give you the number of my downtown LA fashion shop... I got the 3.5 on a thirty.

[rb336]

So what is the illegal money that is being laundered, or do you simply want to make as extreme comment as you could?

[Willi]

There really is no way to sugar coat the truth

“The city is hoping to avoid the characterization of its DWSD restructuring as a default
--by having bondholders agree to be defaulted upon,” according to the MMA report.
The plan is “attempting to walk a very technical line in rating agency definitions
of ‘default’ and ‘distressed exchange.’”

Either it actually DEFAULTS or it does not :
- but it sure sounds like a legal loophole no ordinary resident could ever hope to refi their house or business with.

I wonder what """"15 years in the investment industry I can say with confidence""" has to say
Curious to hear the """""distressed exchange""""

Moody's defines a distressed exchange as a bond default.
It all exploits the fact that only a few investors are able to enter into
the "long low investment grade credit" by holding securities that are below investment grade
The few investors often try to influence the process by which the issuer restructures
its debt, narrows its focus, or implements a plan to turn around its operations

Do we really want the state to run, own and control the Waste Water Treatment Plant when it truly defaults ?
The Land Bank owns dams, and other odd assets that were public items at one time but fell apart financially.
What are the hard brick/mortar assets backing up the financial house of cards ?

[Willi]

A little food for thought

---Debt service on more than $5 billion in bonds and other financial instruments represents 45 percent of the department’s annual costs, more than any other expense including labor.
In previous years the department has been careless in generating new capital. In 2011 and 2012, according to court records, the water department worked with bankers in separate bond sales that raised $1.159 billion ostensibly to improve equipment and infrastructure and shore up city pension funds. But $537 million of that money was used to pay termination fees to Citigroup, JP Morgan Chase Bank, Morgan Stanley Capital Services, Bank of America, and UBS AG.

---Those fees resulted from a risky $2.6 billion bond issue in 2008 that contained what’s known in the finance world as an “interest rate swap.” In a class action suit filed in bankruptcy court to halt the Detroit water cutoffs, attorney Alice Jennings asserts that because of the swap payments “infrastructure repairs were not made, resulting in significant leakages in the systems, which contributed to the increased water bills and higher water rates for residential users.”

---Such credit swaps have come under investigation by the Securities and Exchange Commission and the Justice Department for financial fraud. In 2012, UBS paid $1.5 billion in fines connected with manipulating bond sales. In 2013, JP Morgan paid $13 billion to settle US Justice Department charges that it conducted fraudulent transactions involving the sale of bonds. This month, Bank of America paid $16.65 billion to settle similar federal charges.

http://www.circleofblue.org/waternew...rs-banks-cash/

Sure everything is LEGAL on the bond swap in Detroit ? Really, really sure ?

The Detroit bond sale is likely to net Bank of America, UBS, Morgan Stanley,
and several more financial institutions $50 million or more in fees.
Bond traders could earn $100 million or more in fees and commissions from selling Detroit’s new debt.

The SECURITY for those bonds ???? = a rapidly dwindling 700,000 residents,
and one-third as many property and business owners,
to pay water and sewer expenses designed for a city
that once had nearly two million residents.
The capacity to pay water bills in a city that has low median incomes
and jobless rates that approach 20 percent- just isn't there

DEFAULT is around the corner, Again ---

[corktownyuppie]

I wonder what """"15 years in the investment industry I can say with confidence""" has to say
Curious to hear the """""distressed exchange""""

Plenty. Buckle your seatbelts, everyone, this could get a little finance-technical.

Do we really want the state to run, own and control the Waste Water Treatment Plant when it truly defaults ?
The Land Bank owns dams, and other odd assets that were public items at one time but fell apart financially.
What are the hard brick/mortar assets backing up the financial house of cards ?

The DWSD was never at risk of default because of the treatment plant, dams, or infrastructural defects. The revenue which collateralized the bonds were more than enough for the bonds to considered very safe...or, at minimum, investment grade.

*But what about the distressed-exchange, bond default, and the bond downgrades?*

Because DWSD is owned in whole by the City of Detroit, there remained a very real possibility that the revenue stream covering the bonds may have been redirected [[by court order) to pay off other creditors rather than the bondholders. This was hardly an inevitability, and the general consensus was that the DWSD bondholders were first in line to get paid. But this has yet to be contested in court, and bondholders were given an opportunity to tender their bonds in exchange for an approx. 90% payout in order to avoid the risk of getting only 10 cents on the dollar.

But back to your question, because the city of Detroit creditors [[or Wayne/Oakland/Macomb county creditors, for that matter) have no claim to any of the newly issued debt, the revenue stream -- which has always been enough to deem the bonds as safe -- is protected from any creditors or bankruptcy proceedings, present and future.

I will grant you two points:

[[1) You ask if the state is willing to be on the hook if the bonds default, implying that they will default. The answer, technically, is yes. But no sane person thinks that a default is a realistic possibility because the revenue stream is now protected from outside creditors.

[[2) You mention the distressed exchange and call it a bond default. It is a bond default. And for the owners of the old bond, they did not get what they were promised. But just like the bondholders of the new General Motors are not being treated the same as the bondholders of the old General Motors [[now aka the General Motors Liquidation Company), it is the same. The new bond holders get collateral protection from the utility revenue stream without any of the risks that Detroit or Wayne County creditors can tap into it.

In either case, there is no nefarious conspiracy theory here. And in either case, it is very possible that the bonds go into default and that the state ends up eating the cost.

Just not for the reasons that you are stating, and certainly not with the likelihood that you imply.

And no matter what...this is nothing like money laundering.

[Willi]

Thanks for backing me up on the state versus the city swap and
--- ALL the taxpayers in Michigan take the hit

""" it is very possible that the bonds go into default and that the state ends up eating the cost."""


I thoroughly Dis-agree the revenue from DWSD will be enough to cover much of anything
-- population shrank dramatically
-- businesses are slow to come to a place with high taxes
-- consumption of water just isn't what it once was, huge amount of over capacity

Depending on which financial guru you pray towards
- It looked like an outright default to many of them, in fact the bonds were de-listed at 1 point
https://www.fitchratings.com/creditd...m?pr_id=834867

If you default on a mortgage, which bank gives you another one at a better rate ?
Here in Michigan, the bank can sue you personally for a deficiency judgment.
For example, if you owe $100,000 and the bank forecloses and sells your property
for $50,000 - the bank can get a personal judgment against you for $50,000.

DWSD escaped default on a technicality.....and just barely, at that...................
We will all be on the hook if this strategy fails

Money laundering usually consists of three steps:
a.) placement,
b.) layering
c.) integration.

[Gistok]

Thanks for backing me up on the state versus the city swap and
--- ALL the taxpayers in Michigan take the hit

""" it is very possible that the bonds go into default and that the state ends up eating the cost."""

So now you're mixing logic with future predictions??

The state of Michigan is not a bank giving out mortgages, so don't use that as part of your logic. Their bonding authority helps out cities that have been in distress, not homeowners in distress. So quit comparing apples to oranges.

[BankruptcyGuy]

This program [[where the State backs bonds issued by municipalities, etc) is not unique to DWSD. They have a program for school district debt as well, for example.

Remember that the cities are creatures of the state. If the DWSD was nearing default on the newly-issued bonds that the State guarantees, the State would likely just take over DWSD and redirect all the revenue stream to that debt.

Refinance of one bond with another is neither money laundering, nor unlawful. It's not even close, really.