Wayne County thinking of continuing downtown jail. Gilbert writes another letter.

[Steve203]

What is so wrong with the Mound Rd. site? According to wiki it was built in 1994 and I remember the state said WC could have it for a dollar. I don't know much about jails but couldn't a 20 yr old state pen make do for a county jail for a while with some upgrades?

The spin is the needs of a jail are different, something about the logistics of moving prisoners in and out for short stays typical of a jail, vs long stays for a state pen, so the existing prison would require a lot of rennovation. I don't understand the transportation issue either. If transportation was such a problem, why do they have the jail in Hamtramck?

There have been a lot of people implying the new jail was sited downtown for reasons of graft, the bigger the amount of money involved, the more that can be skimmed off and pocketed.

But that's all water under the bridge. We have $150M in the ground, so the question is where do we go from here? I just think walking away from the other viable facilities downtown, at even more expense to taxpayers, for Dan Gilbert's conveniance, just continues the graft that started with the new jail.

[Gistok]

But that's all water under the bridge. We have $150M in the ground, so the question is where do we go from here? I just think walking away from the other viable facilities downtown, at even more expense to taxpayers, for Dan Gilbert's conveniance, just continues the graft that started with the new jail.

That's the part that is the real kicker.... if it were just moving the jail itself to the Mound Rd. site, that would not be such a big problem. However that large parcel of land that the incomplete FailJail is on is surrounded by other properties that Gilbert wants...

For example... there's the Juvenile Justice Center... which takes up the entire block between the Greektown Hotel/Parking structure and the FailJail site. Over $75 million was spent to build this not more than a dozen years ago. What will replace that, where will it be built... and who's going to foot the bill??

And then there's the courts.... the Wayne County Circuit Court [[much of which is in the Murphy Hall of Justice), and across Gratiot there's the 36th District Court. If Gilbert wants that property as well, the cost of one or two courthouses tacked onto the other costs for Juvenile Justice and other expenses makes this much more than a simple move of a single jail.... we're talking hundreds of millions of dollars here...

It's so easy to just say yeah let Gilbert have the property.... it's another thing when you have to crunch numbers for dollars that are pretty scarce right now.... let alone anything that gets siphoned off the top for county cronies....

[jackie5275]

What is so wrong with the Mound Rd. site? According to wiki it was built in 1994 and I remember the state said WC could have it for a dollar. I don't know much about jails but couldn't a 20 yr old state pen make do for a county jail for a while with some upgrades?

As I said in an earlier post, much of it has been gutted & scrapped by urban miners.

[motz]

As I said in an earlier post, much of it has been gutted & scrapped by urban miners.

Wouldn't that end up making it easier to fit that jail to their needs? Y'all are such bummers sometimes.

[DetroitPlanner]

Wouldn't that end up making it easier to fit that jail to their needs? Y'all are such bummers sometimes.

Heck no! A trashed prison does not equate to a great jail. What will the scrappers take? All metal, wiring, plumbing, electrical, anything that has a tiny bit of value and is not nailed down.

[motz]

Heck no! A trashed prison does not equate to a great jail. What will the scrappers take? All metal, wiring, plumbing, electrical, anything that has a tiny bit of value and is not nailed down.

It's called a renovation ya dummy. Also sarcasm. But mostly free gutting work done by our hardworking citizens.

[brizee]

Well looks like that's that.

Downtown is getting a new jail.

[mikeg19]

The more I read about the two sites, it's hard not to side with just completing the jail in place. Yes, Gilbert wants to use the land and create, well, whatever vision he has for the area. But to think that moving the jail to the Mound site is the better option may be shortsited. Would I rather have condos, apartments, retail, hotels, shopping on the site? Of course. It's taxable and there will be income coming into the city. But getting the Mound site operational is an expense, plus the fact the area has NO amenities to speak of [[restaurants, bondsmen, etc) to support the jail is also a detrement. The cost to make that area work seems to be too much to make a real case for it.

I guess Gilbert will need to find another plot of land for more development. Now only if there was more in the CBD he could find........oh wait. There's a shit ton.

[motz]

The more I read about the two sites, it's hard not to side with just completing the jail in place. Yes, Gilbert wants to use the land and create, well, whatever vision he has for the area. But to think that moving the jail to the Mound site is the better option may be shortsited. Would I rather have condos, apartments, retail, hotels, shopping on the site? Of course. It's taxable and there will be income coming into the city. But getting the Mound site operational is an expense, plus the fact the area has NO amenities to speak of [[restaurants, bondsmen, etc) to support the jail is also a detrement. The cost to make that area work seems to be too much to make a real case for it.

I guess Gilbert will need to find another plot of land for more development. Now only if there was more in the CBD he could find........oh wait. There's a shit ton.

Oh cool, I'm excited to visit "Inmate Alley", everyone's favorite part of the Detroit CBD So glad we decided to spend a bunch of money completing something that is running way over budget and has been handled so ineptly. Plus, Wayne County is still handling the project, so I am sure they will complete it in a timely manner and with minimal cost overruns! Hurray! No one needed that part of downtown anywho, am I right???

[Bham1982]

Oh cool, I'm excited to visit "Inmate Alley", everyone's favorite part of the Detroit CBD So glad we decided to spend a bunch of money completing something that is running way over budget and has been handled so ineptly. Plus, Wayne County is still handling the project, so I am sure they will complete it in a timely manner and with minimal cost overruns! Hurray! No one needed that part of downtown anywho, am I right???

Sometimes when there are two bad options, you just pick the option that does the least harm. I think this was the reasonable and expected outcome.

[313WX]

Well looks like that's that.

Downtown is getting a new jail.

I'm ok with that.

Anything on that lot will be better than the parking lot which was there before.

[Spartan]

so... can Gilbert still pull his funding for that off-ramp?

[313WX]

so... can Gilbert still pull his funding for that off-ramp?

That would be an awfully petty thing to do, not only because no one asked him to make any modifications to that off-ramp, but also because of the fact that he's started working on it.

[mikeg19]

Oh cool, I'm excited to visit "Inmate Alley", everyone's favorite part of the Detroit CBD So glad we decided to spend a bunch of money completing something that is running way over budget and has been handled so ineptly. Plus, Wayne County is still handling the project, so I am sure they will complete it in a timely manner and with minimal cost overruns! Hurray! No one needed that part of downtown anywho, am I right???

Just taking a look at it economically. Estimates are $650M to construct all the facilities at the Mound Rd campus. I get that the current jail is overbudget, but where would the $650M come from to get Mound Rd up and running? That's the problem.

[Honky Tonk]

so... can Gilbert still pull his funding for that off-ramp?

Why would he? The problem still exists because of the casino parking garage, and the cluster ____ it's creating @ the top of the ramp. One thing I will say for Dan, he did step up to the plate, and did the right thing, without anyone holding him to the task.

[jackie5275]

Just taking a look at it economically. Estimates are $650M to construct all the facilities at the Mound Rd campus. I get that the current jail is overbudget, but where would the $650M come from to get Mound Rd up and running? That's the problem.

Exactly right because the County has already issued $300 million in bonds for the original structure, more than half of which has been spent. Trying to get $650 million more in funding would be like pulling teeth and topping this whole project out at around $1 billion. That's that much more taxpayer money that doesn't need to be wasted.

[Tetherunit]

Another issue not being addressed is taxes: The county/court complex pay a total of $0 in taxes. Moving these to an area with exceptionally low value and putting something else in will add to the city's tax base.

Property taxes, to which you refer are meaningless for this debate. Should Gilbert get the land, the abatements and credits he'll receive means he won't pay property tax either.

The issue, as stated by many others, is the full economic impact of the justice center [[jails, courts, law enforcement, bail bonds, lawyers etc.) compared to whatever Gilbert envisions as a replacement.

Downtowns and CBD have always been the locus of government offices and functions. Government offices and their economic externalities are the result of and an expression of a regions ascendancy and shouldn't be dismissed when not fashionable.

Frank Murphy, 36th District and the jails kept downtown Detroit afloat with activity and consumers long before Gilbert arrived. Should Gilbertville not live up to expectations, it will be the constants like our justice institutions that will always be there.

[Pinewood73]

If they built the jail on Mound couldn't that be an opportunity to develop that area?
I don't know if its a good idea to piss off your #1 investor.
What's the economic impact of Gilbert spending his money elsewhere?
i still hope they can work something out with Dan.

Detroit has plenty of space to build a jail, but only 1 square mile of downtown.

[Honky Tonk]

I appreciate Dan, but don't think we should put all our eggs in one or two baskets. I don't think the current judicial structures are a problem Downtown. I don't see a new jail being one either.

[motz]

Just taking a look at it economically. Estimates are $650M to construct all the facilities at the Mound Rd campus. I get that the current jail is overbudget, but where would the $650M come from to get Mound Rd up and running? That's the problem.

Oh, okay.

Last week, Ficano’s team presented their due diligence findings to the Wayne County Commission. Early numbers show, it would cost more than $533 million to move everything – jail, court, sheriff’s and prosecutor’s offices -- out to the Mound Road site.

That's if we move everything, and I don't think I ever suggested moving everything. We have these things called automobiles that are regularly used to transport both goods and humans, and have been fairly reliable in delivering those cargos. I think we can get by with moving the jail NOW, and moving the rest of the infrastructure as it is needed. FMHJ will eventually become outdated, or will be outgrown, and that's when you initiate a project to move it closer to the jail. That makes much more sense to me, especially from a "looking to the future" aspect.

[mikeg19]

Oh, okay.


That's if we move everything, and I don't think I ever suggested moving everything. We have these things called automobiles that are regularly used to transport both goods and humans, and have been fairly reliable in delivering those cargos. I think we can get by with moving the jail NOW, and moving the rest of the infrastructure as it is needed. FMHJ will eventually become outdated, or will be outgrown, and that's when you initiate a project to move it closer to the jail. That makes much more sense to me, especially from a "looking to the future" aspect.
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I believe that Gilbert's bid is contingent on getting everything. The site of the jail, plus all the municipal buildings surrounding the area.

Plus I'm sure transporting prisioners back and forth from downtown to Mound facility would be costly and an unnecessary safety risk.

[motz]

I believe that Gilbert's bid is contingent on getting everything. The site of the jail, plus all the municipal buildings surrounding the area.

Plus I'm sure transporting prisioners back and forth from downtown to Mound facility would be costly and an unnecessary safety risk.

Do you think it would endanger the children too, Nancy Grace? Cases where prisoners escape during transport are not very common, so please stop the "OMG MY SAFETY" hyperbole. It's like running around while it's sunny out warning everyone about being struck by lightning.

I can bet any money Gilbert would be willing to work with the city to get things sorted out. The problem is, Wayne County is not only completely inept, but they also seem dead set on pushing forward with ideas that seem, to me at least, questionable. The jail project has been a huge clusterfudge and if I were the county, I would find a way to recoup as much as possible and get the hell out of that project. Promise you that if they complete the jail, one of two things will happen. Maybe both. Project will cost at least $450M due to overruns. Jail site ends up being moved out of the downtown area within 10 years.