Wayne County thinking of continuing downtown jail. Gilbert writes another letter.

[bailey]

OK.... I'm not going to get into the discussion about what to do with the Fail Jail site...

But I do want to emphasize this.... expand the entertainment disctrict.... Why?

During the our downtown theatre tours in August I had a discussion with one theatre operator who was lamenting that we don't have enough entertainment/visitors to go around as it is... many of the theatres are experiencing a lot of empty nights. Ditto for restaurants nearby.

Due to the problems of filling what we already have... the Gem Theatre no longer does much in the way of shows.... All Night Strut... Forbidden Broadway.... etc.... that's history... the Gem and Century now concentrate on weddings to make ends meet.

Before we decide to grow the district... let's try first to better fill what we already have, rather than end up like the casinos and keep fighting over an ever shrinking piece of the economic pie....

So we should not build any more residential, retail, parking and commercial spaces that aren't theaters because Forbes, Nederlander and Olympia can't book enough shows at their theaters that appeal to local tastes? 30kish will be packing into CoPa to watch the Tigers whenever they're in town. 100k drove out to AA to watch a crap college team play another college team that hasn't won a game in 3 years. 65k will pack FF to watch the [[historically) worst Pro football team in the league play. When's hockey start?

Maybe there just isn't a market here for musicals? Or a market at all for much "theater"? Or maybe they need to evaluate their pricing. In a 5 million person metro area, the issue isn't a lack of market, it's having a product not much of the market gives a shit about. That's a just the reality of the rust belt.

Restaurants will always have dead nights... but you know what makes them less dead? MORE RESIDENTIAL. Which is part of the Gilbert plan.

Gilbert's plan, favored by the building authority, is proposing a $500 million, 1.7 million square-foot development to include residential, hotel, retail and parking units

[Bham1982]

Restaurants will always have dead nights... but you know what makes them less dead? MORE RESIDENTIAL. Which is part of the Gilbert plan.

Gilbert doesn't want residential. He doesn't get urban planning, and thinks the jail complex lessens his prospects for success with his new casino.

If Gilbert really, truly wants residential, he already owns half of downtown. Let's see him actually build something. Better yet, let's see him build something without generous taxpayer subsidies.

[Dbest]

Gilbert doesn't want residential. He doesn't get urban planning, and thinks the jail complex lessens his prospects for success with his new casino.

If Gilbert really, truly wants residential, he already owns half of downtown. Let's see him actually build something. Better yet, let's see him build something without generous taxpayer subsidies.

I have to agree with this to a certain extent. When is he going to build something of substance? Preferably on the Hudsons Lot... It seems like a big residential tower would show confidence in the market and spur additional development. Gilbert's the one to do it. Who else is in that position besides Illitch who already has a massive undertaking about to begin? I think Gilbert may be loosing leverage as Downtown revives, the city may not be as apt to just "giving" him what he wants. It's a good sign for the city..

On a side note, how much longer does Gilbert have the rights for a Hudson lot
proposal?

[motz]

OK.... I'm not going to get into the discussion about what to do with the Fail Jail site...

But I do want to emphasize this.... expand the entertainment disctrict.... Why?

During the our downtown theatre tours in August I had a discussion with one theatre operator who was lamenting that we don't have enough entertainment/visitors to go around as it is... many of the theatres are experiencing a lot of empty nights. Ditto for restaurants nearby.

Due to the problems of filling what we already have... the Gem Theatre no longer does much in the way of shows.... All Night Strut... Forbidden Broadway.... etc.... that's history... the Gem and Century now concentrate on weddings to make ends meet.

Before we decide to grow the district... let's try first to better fill what we already have, rather than end up like the casinos and keep fighting over an ever shrinking piece of the economic pie....

Hey, I heard you guys at the Gem Theater are having a rough time making money. Instead of encouraging you to book events that draw customers, I think we'll build a jail right down the street from you. Jails are great destination points in New Urban America. Go visit Tim at the lock up, get a nice dinner at Vincente's and then catch a show at the Gem Sounds like an amazing night!

In case you missed my point through the sarcasm, a jail won't help the Gem do better business. Moving the courts and jail from downtown and using the land to add more destinations WILL attract more people to the Gem. That is, if the Gem decides that "having events" is an important part of "owning an event center". If you have a good selection of restaurants, night life options for after you catch a show at the theater, and people feel like they are walking around in a downtown that is alive, you'll end up with more people down there. Period. If you put a court room and a jail down there, both of which are never really active after a certain evening hour, it's going to feel dark and desolate in that part of downtown and neighboring businesses WILL be affected.

Seriously, are we unable to look into the future on this? Are we unable to build with the assumption that this growth spurt will continue and eventually mature out to a semi-functional [[I never think it'll be fully functional) downtown? Or should we just build what we need now and then tear it down later when the CBD is out of room to expand?

[bailey]

I have to agree with this to a certain extent. When is he going to build something of substance? Preferably on the Hudsons Lot... It seems like a big residential tower would show confidence in the market and spur additional development. Gilbert's the one to do it. Who else is in that position besides Illitch who already has a massive undertaking about to begin? I think Gilbert may be loosing leverage as Downtown revives, the city may not be as apt to just "giving" him what he wants. It's a good sign for the city..

On a side note, how much longer does Gilbert have the rights for a Hudson lot
proposal?

Much of the issues with the hudsons site are bound up in what is happening with Compuware and its building. look for news on the ownership of the building and downtown office shuffling soon. [[soon...in the Detroit vernacular meaning 18-24 months)

re: hudson's site, IIRC Rock needs to commit to at least 75 million in investment at the site by June of 2016 to get the Renaissance Zone designation.

[Dbest]

Thanks Bailey..

[Gistok]

Hey, I heard you guys at the Gem Theater are having a rough time making money. Instead of encouraging you to book events that draw customers, I think we'll build a jail right down the street from you. Jails are great destination points in New Urban America. Go visit Tim at the lock up, get a nice dinner at Vincente's and then catch a show at the Gem Sounds like an amazing night!

In case you missed my point through the sarcasm, a jail won't help the Gem do better business. Moving the courts and jail from downtown and using the land to add more destinations WILL attract more people to the Gem. That is, if the Gem decides that "having events" is an important part of "owning an event center". If you have a good selection of restaurants, night life options for after you catch a show at the theater, and people feel like they are walking around in a downtown that is alive, you'll end up with more people down there. Period. If you put a court room and a jail down there, both of which are never really active after a certain evening hour, it's going to feel dark and desolate in that part of downtown and neighboring businesses WILL be affected.

Seriously, are we unable to look into the future on this? Are we unable to build with the assumption that this growth spurt will continue and eventually mature out to a semi-functional [[I never think it'll be fully functional) downtown? Or should we just build what we need now and then tear it down later when the CBD is out of room to expand?

Just how long has the existing justice center [[Jail/Courts/Law enforcement HQ) been sitting in that area next to the only part of downtown Detroit that has continually maintained any vitality during the lean years..... namely Greektown. Greektown has been doing just fine sitting within 2 blocks of all those buildings for over half a century. I never ONCE heard anyone say "uh oh... we better not go to Greektown for lunch or dinner... because you know what's sitting nearby! )

The Gem/Century were moved over a dozen years ago right next door to 36th District Court.... and within view of the old city/county jail. Ditto for Music Hall, which has ALWAYS been located within 2 blocks of it. And again... I've never ever heard anyone complain about the proximity to the justice center.

My point is NOT that we shouldn't move the jail... as I explained in my comment. I just think that moving the entire court system from there is a very bad move. Just who do you think goes to the now struggling Greektown restaurants at lunch time? Not the casino patrons... not all the folks living in lofts nearby.... but many of the court employees, lawyers and judges. If we move out the government/legal employees from that area... the impact will be felt by all the restaurants and businesses that depend on the lunch crowd. Put the jail where ever you folks want... I really don't care.... just don't move the ancillary services out of the downtown area.

If you happen to be around Comerica Park or the Fox Fillmore area at lunch.... good luck in finding a place to have lunch... they're all depending on the entertainment crowd.... and won't be open until evening.....

[jackie5275]

-Former Wayne County Circuit Chief Judge Virgil Smith, in an article he wrote back in 2010.

I've not seen any improvements since then.

So, you're basing this on Virgil Smith's OPINION from 4 years ago? Have you ever even been in FMHJ? When were you last there? My job requires me to go in there at least once a week. I know the place is not dilapidated.

[motz]

Just how long has the existing justice center [[Jail/Courts/Law enforcement HQ) been sitting in that area next to the only part of downtown Detroit that has continually maintained any vitality during the lean years..... namely Greektown. Greektown has been doing just fine sitting within 2 blocks of all those buildings for over half a century. I never ONCE heard anyone say "uh oh... we better not go to Greektown for lunch or dinner... because you know what's sitting nearby! )

The Gem/Century were moved over a dozen years ago right next door to 36th District Court.... and within view of the old city/county jail. Ditto for Music Hall, which has ALWAYS been located within 2 blocks of it. And again... I've never ever heard anyone complain about the proximity to the justice center.

My point is NOT that we shouldn't move the jail... as I explained in my comment. I just think that moving the entire court system from there is a very bad move. Just who do you think goes to the now struggling Greektown restaurants at lunch time? Not the casino patrons... not all the folks living in lofts nearby.... but many of the court employees, lawyers and judges. If we move out the government/legal employees from that area... the impact will be felt by all the restaurants and businesses that depend on the lunch crowd. Put the jail where ever you folks want... I really don't care.... just don't move the ancillary services out of the downtown area.

If you happen to be around Comerica Park or the Fox Fillmore area at lunch.... good luck in finding a place to have lunch... they're all depending on the entertainment crowd.... and won't be open until evening.....

So we should keep the courthouse and jail downtown to help boost business in Greektown? Because Greektown businesses and area theaters are "doing poorly" after a tour you went on? Did you completely look past the "maybe we should look ahead instead of what is happening today?" part of what I said? Places aren't open for lunch because who is going to go to a middle-to-"higher" end restaurant for lunch? I know I wouldn't. I would go to the taco place, or the cheaper salad place, or Potbellys, or somewhere that is affordable. Stop looking at things how they are and saying "This is how it is; this is how it must be" and instead look at the CBD and say "This is how it is; This is what it CAN be". It is a place where courts are, but it could be a bustling and lively area of downtown. Plus if they relocated the courts, you'd see less citizens getting bullshit parking tickets and having to pay ridiculous rates to park in broke ass surface lots.

[Gistok]

So we should keep the courthouse and jail downtown to help boost business in Greektown? Because Greektown businesses and area theaters are "doing poorly" after a tour you went on? Did you completely look past the "maybe we should look ahead instead of what is happening today?" part of what I said? Places aren't open for lunch because who is going to go to a middle-to-"higher" end restaurant for lunch? I know I wouldn't. I would go to the taco place, or the cheaper salad place, or Potbellys, or somewhere that is affordable. Stop looking at things how they are and saying "This is how it is; this is how it must be" and instead look at the CBD and say "This is how it is; This is what it CAN be". It is a place where courts are, but it could be a bustling and lively area of downtown. Plus if they relocated the courts, you'd see less citizens getting bullshit parking tickets and having to pay ridiculous rates to park in broke ass surface lots.

OK... I didn't just "go on a tour".... I am part of Preservation Detroit's annual downtown theatre tours... for 15 years now... and as part of that... over the years I have talk to many of the building owners/operators... the DiChiera, Forbes...etc. So I hear things from their perspectives... If you want to relocate all the court systems out of downtown... then fine... that's your opinion... [[and the discussion of parking tickets is irrelevent to that discussion).

If the courts move out of Detroit... then more downtown office space gets emptied out... and then your "This is how it can be"... takes on some unpleasant consequences for a lot of downtown building owners....

http://www.yellowpages.com/detroit-m...district-court

[bailey]

So, you're basing this on Virgil Smith's OPINION from 4 years ago? Have you ever even been in FMHJ? When were you last there? My job requires me to go in there at least once a week. I know the place is not dilapidated.

i agreed with it when he was dealing with the dysfuncitonal set up 4 years ago and I haven't seen much in the way of improvement. if you think its all peaches and cream there.... i really can't argue other than to say I think you're setting a really low bar.

[ABetterDetroit]

Cut a deal, negotiate that's how things get done. Leave FMHJ out of it and see what he will promise under contract to build on the "fail jail" site and get a imeadiate renovation on 1300 Beaubien that is now starting the Wayne County rot process. Work with what is now useless to your tax rolls and get something big out of it. Hint: residences, residences and more residences. Quit giving it away for a dollar and get something built you can tax. Get people to move in that you can tax. Make Gilbert put his money where his mouth is.

[Steve203]

The evening news was bubbling about the new Red Wings arena district tonight. All funding lined up. Groundbreaking Sept 25.

That district, plus the M-1 rail project, plus proximity to Comerica and the Fox, plus lots of open or easily cleared land for further redevelopment in the immediate area, makes me start to wonder if Gilbert is thinking Greektown was a bad move as, in comparison to the Woodward corridor, it's off in the boonies. His lowball offer for the justice complex may be a desperation move to save his investment in Greektown, at the cost to residents of an extra $300M to accommodate him.

[bailey]

The evening news was bubbling about the new Red Wings arena district tonight. All funding lined up. Groundbreaking Sept 25.

That district, plus the M-1 rail project, plus proximity to Comerica and the Fox, plus lots of open or easily cleared land for further redevelopment in the immediate area, makes me start to wonder if Gilbert is thinking Greektown was a bad move as, in comparison to the Woodward corridor, it's off in the boonies. His lowball offer for the justice complex may be a desperation move to save his investment in Greektown, at the cost to residents of an extra $300M to accommodate him.

considering how much detroit relies on casino revenue to make it's payroll.... perhaps making sure conditions are such that one doesn't fail is something of a mutual benefit here.

[Steve203]

considering how much detroit relies on casino revenue to make it's payroll.... perhaps making sure conditions are such that one doesn't fail is something of a mutual benefit here.

As I recall, Greektown already failed once, as it was bankrupt when Gilbert bought it. Then he doubled down by building the new facility. Greektown is a small enclave on the wrong side of downtown, compared to the other casinos. All Gilbert would get with his plan is a larger enclave on the wrong side of downtown. There is no reason to tear down viable buildings, the justice complex, for redevelopment when there is so much open land and so many abandoned buildings along Cass. Midtown is where the major growth will be. Why should Gilbert be bailed out by taxpayers?

[bailey]

As I recall, Greektown already failed once, as it was bankrupt when Gilbert bought it. Then he doubled down by building the new facility. Greektown is a small enclave on the wrong side of downtown, compared to the other casinos. All Gilbert would get with his plan is a larger enclave on the wrong side of downtown. There is no reason to tear down viable buildings, the justice complex, for redevelopment when there is so much open land and so many abandoned buildings along Cass. Midtown is where the major growth will be. Why should Gilbert be bailed out by taxpayers?

in what universe is paying 50 million to buy the site and then committing to spend 500 million on its redevelopment a "bail out"?

if it's about the price of the land...fine... i can see that as being too cheap for what it takes to move that much to mound. But let's not act like he's getting an Illitch style hand-out here. Gilbert didn't run the place into the ground, tear it down and then sit on the moonscape of blight for 30years before demanding the tax payers build him a superblock of entertainment complex.

[motz]

in what universe is paying 50 million to buy the site and then committing to spend 500 million on its redevelopment a "bail out"?

if it's about the price of the land...fine... i can see that as being too cheap for what it takes to move that much to mound. But let's not act like he's getting an Illitch style hand-out here. Gilbert didn't run the place into the ground, tear it down and then sit on the moonscape of blight for 30years before demanding the tax payers build him a superblock of entertainment complex.

In addition, the mentality that this area can only be a jail/courthouse/etc area is pretty amazing, coming from the same set who bark about "SAME OLD DETROIT" constantly. If Gilbert wants to invest and turn what is currently a court-hours-only bustling area into an entertainment district to compliment the casino, why not? The Fail Jail is already beyond what can be described as over budget, and I would bet any money that finishing it would end up going over budget too. Wayne County tried doing A Thing, said Thing did not work out well at all and ended in criminal prosecution, so why is anyone at all preaching that would should continue doing That Thing that wasted hundreds of millions and ended with criminal prosecution?

[southen]

As I recall, Greektown already failed once, as it was bankrupt when Gilbert bought it. Then he doubled down by building the new facility. Greektown is a small enclave on the wrong side of downtown, compared to the other casinos. All Gilbert would get with his plan is a larger enclave on the wrong side of downtown. There is no reason to tear down viable buildings, the justice complex, for redevelopment when there is so much open land and so many abandoned buildings along Cass. Midtown is where the major growth will be. Why should Gilbert be bailed out by taxpayers?

boonies? wrong side of downtown? what the hell are you talking about? greektown is one of the major success stories downtown and one of the most thriving areas, but you think its in the middle of nowhere compared to mgm and motorcity? which are essentially isolated islands... i think you may need to take a walk downtown and get a feel for what is actually going on down there.

also he isnt being bailed out by the taxpayers at all on this. when the county desperately asks for other proposals and he comes to the table with his own money and a plan its not a bailout.

i personally dont have a problem with the courts remaining where they are, but there is a real opportunity to do something nice in the gratiot corridor. id love nothing more than to see positive development that can further link lafayette park and eastern market to downtown. a jail fortress doesnt accomplish that.

[Steve203]

in what universe is paying 50 million to buy the site and then committing to spend 500 million on its redevelopment a "bail out"?

That would be the universe where the taxpayers pony up $650M, instead of $350M, to vacate viable facilities, so Gilbert can do what he wants next door to Greektown.

[jackie5275]

His lowball offer for the justice complex may be a desperation move ...

This is exactly what it is, a lowball offer. However, I wouldn't call it desparation. I 'd call it capitalization. He's banking on negative public sentiment about how the jail construction has been handled to date, plus beating the drum about the "bad image" a jail would present there all in an effort to get all this land for cheap.

[Steve203]

boonies? wrong side of downtown? what the hell are you talking about? greektown is one of the major success stories downtown and one of the most thriving areas, but you think its in the middle of nowhere compared to mgm and motorcity? which are essentially isolated islands

Take a stroll between Cass and the Lodge. Look at all the open land and abandoned buildings, next door to the arena project and close to MGM and Motor City. That is where the future growth will be. Greektown is going to be a backwater.

Here is the district as envisioned

http://headsupdetroit.com/blog/wp-co...strict-map.jpg

[Gistok]

In addition, the mentality that this area can only be a jail/courthouse/etc area is pretty amazing, coming from the same set who bark about "SAME OLD DETROIT" constantly. If Gilbert wants to invest and turn what is currently a court-hours-only bustling area into an entertainment district to compliment the casino, why not? The Fail Jail is already beyond what can be described as over budget, and I would bet any money that finishing it would end up going over budget too. Wayne County tried doing A Thing, said Thing did not work out well at all and ended in criminal prosecution, so why is anyone at all preaching that would should continue doing That Thing that wasted hundreds of millions and ended with criminal prosecution?

Look, like I said... I don't give a rats ass where the jail[[s) end up... but there's no reason to move the courts out of downtown. If they do move... who is going to pay for that? And how do we know the county isn't going to mess that up as well? Ditto for the Sheriff's HQ... that's also right next to the MHOJ.... Building new courts and Sheriff's HQ outside the downtown area because there's no room left in the downtown area is one thing.... but that's not the case here... and saying that the county taxpayers should cough up another couple hundred million to move everything to Mound Rd. just so that Gilbert can have a nice contiguous playground for his casino.... well that may not sit well with everyone....

[bailey]

in what universe is paying 50 million to buy the site and then committing to spend 500 million on its redevelopment a "bail out"?

That would be the universe where the taxpayers pony up $650M, instead of $350M, to vacate viable facilities, so Gilbert can do what he wants next door to Greektown.

except the taxpayers werent supposed to be paying more than 300 in the first place... and we've now blown way past 350 million... it was 370 when construction was halted.

I get wanting to get more for the parcels. fine. but this bullshit about it being bad for the city or the taxpayer is just silly. It's an attempt to fix something for the long term good vs. the typical detroit answer of slapping a bandaid on a bullet wound and calling it good. Doing it right ALWAYS costs more than jerry rigging.

[southen]

boonies? wrong side of downtown? what the hell are you talking about? greektown is one of the major success stories downtown and one of the most thriving areas, but you think its in the middle of nowhere compared to mgm and motorcity? which are essentially isolated islands

Take a stroll between Cass and the Lodge. Look at all the open land and abandoned buildings, next door to the arena project and close to MGM and Motor City. That is where the future growth will be. Greektown is going to be a backwater.

Here is the district as envisioned

http://headsupdetroit.com/blog/wp-co...strict-map.jpg

so a neighborhood that has survived detroit's darkest days is now going to be a backwater because of an entertainment proposal? so ignore the nightlife, bars, retaurants and all of that which make greektown popular, gilbert is desperate due to a proposal by a developer with an atrocious track record of following through on anything, much less 45 blocks. you honestly have no idea what you are talking about. on any night downtown there is more traffic on monroe than anywhere else in the city. that is going to continue regardless of what illitch does and regardless of what happens with the jail site.

[ABetterDetroit]

What is so wrong with the Mound Rd. site? According to wiki it was built in 1994 and I remember the state said WC could have it for a dollar. I don't know much about jails but couldn't a 20 yr old state pen make do for a county jail for a while with some upgrades? Or do jails have to be brand new every 25 years or so? It can't just be transportation, 10 million dollars would buy a lot of prisoner transport. It seems to me that the politicians involved said we need "new and shiny" and now are trying to save face by sticking to "new and shiny"