Wayne County thinking of continuing downtown jail. Gilbert writes another letter.

[jackie5275]

Regarding the location of the currently stalled jail project, at the time the decision was made to build it, it was the right location because it was across the street from FMHJ, just as the 2 current jails downtown are. Just a little bit of history, there has been a sheriff/police/jail facility in that area since the mid 1800s, so it's not as if there was this sudden decision to plop a jail in the middle of a booming area. This criminal justice area has been long established.

Regarding the Mound Rd facility, the part of facility the State proposed to sell to the County is pretty much scrapped & gutted. There would have to be a lot rebuilding in that facilty to make it habitable & workable as a jail. It would pretty much be like starting from scratch to make work. Plus, there is no building for a courthouse. That would have to be constructed. Also, the parking at that facility would have to be significantly expanded to accomodate all the traffic that would go with the jail & courthouse.

Regarding Gilbert's complaint, the County is taking their time evaluating all options. Gilbert offered $50 million for the stalled jail, the other 2 jails, FMHJ,the juvenile detention center, and I think the old DPD HQ. That's alot of prime real estate for only $50 million. I know Gilbert supporters will say that he will have to spend a whole bunch more in demolition & construction costs to get the area to his vision. However, the County is looking out for their interests too. From their perspective, $50 million isn't a whole lot of money for that land and will just put a dent in the payments on the bonds for the stalled jail. Gilbert is bristling because he can't get a bunch of prime land dirt cheap. The County has $300 million in bond money tied up in this project that they want to get more of a return on than $50 million.

Regarding why is the County thinking about continuing the jail, especially at this point, well you have deadlines that were set months ago that required a decision to be made about the status of the jail. These deadlines are up which is forcing the conversation to take place.

What's really going to happen? Despite all this discussion, I think nothing will happen the remainder of this calendar year. Indictments have been issued. Lawsuits have been filed. The outcomes of these legal activities will have an impact on what happens next. Ficano is out. The new County Exec, probably Warren Evans, along with any new commissioners will have the say in what happens. That won't happen until next year at the earliest. This thing is far from over.

[jackie5275]

Bham, doesn't Frank Murphy HoJ have the short term jail facility?

It does not. Inmates are either brought through the tunnels underneath from the two jails downtown or transported by deputies from the Hamtramck jail.

[jackie5275]

People don't exactly consider jails a gathering spot to hang out with friends [[unless those friends are in the wrong places).

True, but there is a lot of gathering there by visitors to the jails & courts and folks on jury duty, attorneys to the courts, etc. It does generate a lot of activity in the area, even if it is a "forced" gathering.

[Honky Tonk]

True, but there is a lot of gathering there by visitors to the jails & courts and folks on jury duty, attorneys to the courts, etc. It does generate a lot of activity in the area, even if it is a "forced" gathering.

Maybe they could add a fancy, high-end coffee shop to the lobby of the jail with some kind of catch line? Something like "Our beans are locked up for 30-90 days, before they are ground, and their flavor released".

[animatedmartian]

True, but there is a lot of gathering there by visitors to the jails & courts and folks on jury duty, attorneys to the courts, etc. It does generate a lot of activity in the area, even if it is a "forced" gathering.

It sort of makes me think of how Wall Street is [[the literal street). You mostly just see guys in business suits scurrying across the street in and out of buildings. And really that could be any financial district in America, but the thing is, financial districts [[and often government districts) have no draw for anyone else to be there other than the people who work there. In that case, what would make a downtown different than a suburban office park?

But I do understand the point in your other post about the fail jail being in an area that was already established as an area for the criminal justice system and it makes sense to have the facilities centralized downtown. Though the way Wayne County has handled it is absolutely abysmal and I think a more competent organization would have done a completely better job on the whole process.

[Steve203]

Another issue not being addressed is taxes: The county/court complex pay a total of $0 in taxes. Moving these to an area with exceptionally low value and putting something else in will add to the city's tax base.

If Gilbert got his hands on that land, probably the first thing he would do is demand a tax abatement for "jobs created", which may or may not replace the jobs moved out to Mound, so no net gain for the city.

[Steve203]

"Well, it's cheaper to just finish it so we should."

Whatever happens will be paid out of our pockets. What I can't see is replacing the entire complex, for Gilbert's conveniance.

Rennovating Mound, as a jail, is one thing, and would only make sense if that cost less than finishing the present project. Replacing the entire complex is another. The Frank Murphy was built in 68, and, from what I have seen is not run down. When was the Juvenile facility built? It looks like it's from the 80s. The jail on St Antoine next to the Frank Murphy doesn't look all that old either. The only really old buildings are on the back side of the block.

To use the car repair analogy, what Gilbert wants to do would be the same as scrapping a good servicable car because it's time for an oil change.

[bailey]

If Gilbert got his hands on that land, probably the first thing he would do is demand a tax abatement for "jobs created", which may or may not replace the jobs moved out to Mound, so no net gain for the city.

at some point those abatements expire. and if Gilbert is true to his proposals, residential and commercial will be in the mix. so, long term, it's a net gain as instead of a superblock of prison block you'd have a neighborhood.

"Well, it's cheaper to just finish it so we should."

Whatever happens will be paid out of our pockets. What I can't see is replacing the entire complex, for Gilbert's conveniance.

Rennovating Mound, as a jail, is one thing, and would only make sense if that cost less than finishing the present project. Replacing the entire complex is another. The Frank Murphy was built in 68, and, from what I have seen is not run down. When was the Juvenile facility built? It looks like it's from the 80s. The jail on St Antoine next to the Frank Murphy doesn't look all that old either. The only really old buildings are on the back side of the block.

FM is dilapidated and it's one of 4 buildings that the Wayne County circuit court is spread out among. All need significant upgrades. What would make actual financial sense would be to consolidate them all in one court complex.

To use the car repair analogy, what Gilbert wants to do would be the same as scrapping a good servicable car because it's time for an oil change.

really it's like your 10 person family trading in four 40+ yr old two seater cars that you've barely been able to keep on the road and which have not served your family's needs very well for quite some time for one new SUV that fits everyone and is state of the art.

[hybridy]

Well that's a separate issue.

I never said that I supported the jail plans, just that there isn't something inherently bad about having a jail in a city center.

For all the claimed benefits about a potential new hockey arena, I bet you a county jail would do more for downtown on a day-to-day basis. You would have hundreds of employees there 24/7, and they would need restaurants and services. You would also have a constant stream of visitors. An arena will just be an empty tomb 95% of the time.

But no one in charge of things downtown knows a thing about building cities.

the only services jail visitors use are the vending machines in the visiting room. they aren't going to slow's for a yardbird afterward...

[Mackinaw]

It does not. Inmates are either brought through the tunnels underneath from the two jails downtown or transported by deputies from the Hamtramck jail.

You are completely right, and I was lumping the three buildings-- FMHOJ and the two adjacent jail buildings-- together as one unit. But my question to Bham and my partial objection to the Gilbert plan still stand. So, help me figure this out. Is Fail Jail supposed to supplement and have the exact same role at these other two extant buildings adjacent to Frank Murphy? Meaning do we NEED Fail Jail to hold people awaiting arraignment and make due process happen, or is Fail Jail for people who have been bound over and are awaiting trial?

I just object to this all or nothing approach, which is Gilbert's plan, under which the whole criminal justice facility must move to Mound Rd.-- or somewhere else-- and that FMHOJ and the extant jails must go bye-bye. Why the waste? If we have a decent, well-located courthouse, and if we have sufficient short term jail space adjacent to it to hold people awaiting their hearing, why not leave all of this in place and move fail jail's new capacity elsewhere, Mount Rd. or otherwise?

I encourage Gilbert to draw a distinction, to see that he can build something substantial on the HUGE fail jail site and nearby empty lots around Gratiot, over to Randolph, to tour downtown Manhattan and Brooklyn to see that interesting, vibrant [[including residential) uses can exist in close proximity to criminal court facilities, and to accordingly make an attractive proposal to bail out the Fail Jail site but not saddle our county with moving the entire criminal justice facility. I agree with him as to the site at issue, but I cannot get on board with such a wasteful and unnecessary overall plan.

[bailey]

I encourage Gilbert to draw a distinction, to see that he can build something substantial on the HUGE fail jail site and nearby empty lots around Gratiot, over to Randolph, to tour downtown Manhattan and Brooklyn to see that interesting, vibrant [[including residential) uses can exist in close proximity to criminal court facilities, and to accordingly make an attractive proposal to bail out the Fail Jail site but not saddle our county with moving the entire criminal justice facility. I agree with him as to the site at issue, but I cannot get on board with such a wasteful and unnecessary overall plan.

The fact there are jails in cities is sort of beside the point. The one thing Detroit has is land available to remove things like Jail complexes from the core of the city. In no one's planning manual is a Jail complex a highest and best use for a block of land between a stadium district and an entertainment area and that acts as a main gateway to what everyone is trying to make the premiere area of the region. It's just silly. Compounding the silliness is the colossal incompetence and criminal acts that have lead to the thing going hundreds of millions over budget and years late.

The all or nothing approach is being pushed because, as gilbert notes, this type of opportunity to make large transformative change is rare. Build the jail and there and that will be the last thing built there. None of the lots will be replaced by hipster lofts. Heck, look across the street. PWC moved out of a brand spanking new building because they preferred not to be across the street from the hulking cement mass of jail complex.

“Recruiting is important to us, and having a jail across the street certainly doesn’t help. You know what they say, “Location, location, location,’ ” Breen told Crain’s. “Having a jail there was certainly a factor.”

Build the jail, might as well salt the earth around it.

[Scottathew]

The fact there are jails in cities is sort of beside the point. The one thing Detroit has is land available to remove things like Jail complexes from the core of the city. In no one's planning manual is a Jail complex a highest and best use for a block of land between a stadium district and an entertainment area and that acts as a main gateway to what everyone is trying to make the premiere area of the region. It's just silly. Compounding the silliness is the colossal incompetence and criminal acts that have lead to the thing going hundreds of millions over budget and years late.

Excellent point. Detroit should be considering a strategic approach where we move these complexes out of Downtown. We've got enough space that we can move the jail and the courthouses out.

The only possible downside I see is that the jail and courts employ a lot of people that may frequent downtown businesses, so we'd see a loss of economic activity. However, what might replace those could be better.

[Bham1982]

the only services jail visitors use are the vending machines in the visiting room. they aren't going to slow's for a yardbird afterward...

Why not? Jail visitors include attorneys, physicians, counselors, and many other types. And court visitors [[the courts would have to be moved too) would have an even bigger impact.

Visit Chinatown in Lower Manhattan at lunchtime on a weekday. The courts and jails pretty much sustain the local lunchtime economy.

Again, I'm not saying that jails are an ideal use, or even a good use, but I don't think it's unreasonable to have the court and jail facilities in a unified, centralized complex, and I do think these facilities have lots of well-paid employees and visitors that benefit local businesses. It isn't like the criminals are going anywhere.

[Bham1982]

T
Build the jail, might as well salt the earth around it.

The Brooklyn Jail is located adjacent to some of the most expensive and desirable residential blocks in the borough, as well as retailers like Barneys and JCrew. I don't get what is so bad about a jail complex.

Are people aware that parole and probation offices, outpatient treatment facilities, methadone clinics, and various homeless services are conducted out of private office buildings in city centers? I would imagine those uses are far less desirable, and yet most downtown centers seem to accommodate such facilities just fine.

[Steve203]

at some point those abatements expire.

Meanwhile, County residents have to pay the debt servicing costs on the extra $300M of debt that would be undertaken to move all the justice facilities to Mound.

FM is dilapidated

I have been in the lobby, jury room and a court room, and it all looks fine to me.

And what of the juvenile facility? Gilbert's plan means abandoning it too.

instead of a superblock of prison block you'd have a neighborhood.

Take a look at an aerial photo. There is tons of room for neighborhoods all over midtown. Gilbert's problem is that land isn't next door to Greektown.

He's whining about the courts and jails next door to his fancy new hotel sounds like the guy who buys a house at the end of an airport runway, then demands the airport move, at someone else's expense, because he don't like the noise.

[Mackinaw]

Bham, we're making history here-- I completely agree with you points here [[criminal justice facilities can be a contributing, not to mention neccesary, part of a downtown, and they should be downtown particularly in a city with such limited transit across its outer parts). See also: http://nextcity.org/daily/entry/detr...rt-alternative

But I still just can't get on board with completing fail jail. The alternative that I perceive is improving the current jail facilities-- two buildings mind you, perfectly connected to the court, which should be able to adequately cover people in short term holding-- and to the extent any additional space is needed for people awaiting trial, look elsewhere in the city. The Fail Jail site is as large as FMHOJ+the two jails+Old Police HQ. It's massive. There is no justification for locking up such a large site for mere duplication of nearby uses. And this much of what Gilbert says is true-- the spot is too well located and too marketable for better uses. Combine this with the alternatives available, and I think the site, on its own, should be sold to the high bidder on a mixed use development RFP. And I see no reason why we must insist on an "entertainment district." I would be perfectly happy if the existing entertainment corridors of downtown [[particularly Park Ave., Bricktown-Greektown, Campus Martius, and the seeds of nightlife we see on Capital Park and Merchants Row) filled in with intensified use and expanded organically-- no need to create another pocket of "entertainment" activity when residential or some other creative use would quite possibly contribute even more, and lead to more good things and a well-rounded downtown.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

The Brooklyn Jail is located adjacent to some of the most expensive and desirable residential blocks in the borough, as well as retailers like Barneys and JCrew. I don't get what is so bad about a jail complex.

Are people aware that parole and probation offices, outpatient treatment facilities, methadone clinics, and various homeless services are conducted out of private office buildings in city centers? I would imagine those uses are far less desirable, and yet most downtown centers seem to accommodate such facilities just fine.

Let's put a big Oakland County jail next to you in Birmingham.

[ABetterDetroit]

The fact there are jails in cities is sort of beside the point. The one thing Detroit has is land available to remove things like Jail complexes from the core of the city. In no one's planning manual is a Jail complex a highest and best use for a block of land between a stadium district and an entertainment area and that acts as a main gateway to what everyone is trying to make the premiere area of the region. It's just silly. Compounding the silliness is the colossal incompetence and criminal acts that have lead to the thing going hundreds of millions over budget and years late.

The all or nothing approach is being pushed because, as gilbert notes, this type of opportunity to make large transformative change is rare. Build the jail and there and that will be the last thing built there. None of the lots will be replaced by hipster lofts. Heck, look across the street. PWC moved out of a brand spanking new building because they preferred not to be across the street from the hulking cement mass of jail complex.

Exellant points. There is no shortage of land that does not generate revenue so why would you drop a new jail on property that can? Make a deal Wayne county, a billionaire wants your "fail jail property" duh? How about cash plus x amount of new high rise residences in x amount of time Mr. Gilbert. That property at 30 stories would have awesome views inside comerica. Does Wayne county understand that residents pay taxes and criminals do not?

[Gistok]

OK.... I'm not going to get into the discussion about what to do with the Fail Jail site...

But I do want to emphasize this.... expand the entertainment disctrict.... Why?

During the our downtown theatre tours in August I had a discussion with one theatre operator who was lamenting that we don't have enough entertainment/visitors to go around as it is... many of the theatres are experiencing a lot of empty nights. Ditto for restaurants nearby.

Due to the problems of filling what we already have... the Gem Theatre no longer does much in the way of shows.... All Night Strut... Forbidden Broadway.... etc.... that's history... the Gem and Century now concentrate on weddings to make ends meet.

Before we decide to grow the district... let's try first to better fill what we already have, rather than end up like the casinos and keep fighting over an ever shrinking piece of the economic pie....

[jackie5275]

"Well, it's cheaper to just finish it so we should."

Whatever happens will be paid out of our pockets. What I can't see is replacing the entire complex, for Gilbert's conveniance.

Rennovating Mound, as a jail, is one thing, and would only make sense if that cost less than finishing the present project. Replacing the entire complex is another. The Frank Murphy was built in 68, and, from what I have seen is not run down. When was the Juvenile facility built? It looks like it's from the 80s. The jail on St Antoine next to the Frank Murphy doesn't look all that old either. The only really old buildings are on the back side of the block.

To use the car repair analogy, what Gilbert wants to do would be the same as scrapping a good servicable car because it's time for an oil change.

The oldest of the buildings are the old DPD HQ and the old jail. Both of these buildings were built in the 1920s. The new jail was built in the 1980s. The juvenile detention center was built in the late 1990s-early 2000s. The Hamtramck jail was built in the 1990s.

[jackie5275]

You are completely right, and I was lumping the three buildings-- FMHOJ and the two adjacent jail buildings-- together as one unit. But my question to Bham and my partial objection to the Gilbert plan still stand. So, help me figure this out. Is Fail Jail supposed to supplement and have the exact same role at these other two extant buildings adjacent to Frank Murphy? Meaning do we NEED Fail Jail to hold people awaiting arraignment and make due process happen, or is Fail Jail for people who have been bound over and are awaiting trial?

The stalled jail was originally supposed to replace all 3 jails, 2 downtown & 1 in Hamtramck. As construction started, that got scaled back to replacing only the 2 downtown. The intent has always been to replace at least the 2 downtown.

[jackie5275]

FM is dilapidated and it's one of 4 buildings that the Wayne County circuit court is spread out among. All need significant upgrades. What would make actual financial sense would be to consolidate them all in one court complex.

FMHJ is far from dilapidated. I don't know what your definition of dilapidated is or if you are just make a judgement call from the outside, but there is nothing wrong with that building at all.

[jackie5275]

OK.... I'm not going to get into the discussion about what to do with the Fail Jail site...

But I do want to emphasize this.... expand the entertainment disctrict.... Why?

During the our downtown theatre tours in August I had a discussion with one theatre operator who was lamenting that we don't have enough entertainment/visitors to go around as it is... many of the theatres are experiencing a lot of empty nights. Ditto for restaurants nearby.

Due to the problems of filling what we already have... the Gem Theatre no longer does much in the way of shows.... All Night Strut... Forbidden Broadway.... etc.... that's history... the Gem and Century now concentrate on weddings to make ends meet.

Before we decide to grow the district... let's try first to better fill what we already have, rather than end up like the casinos and keep fighting over an ever shrinking piece of the economic pie....

That's an interesting first hand revelation that many folks are probably not going to be aware of.

[SDCC]

In San Diego the Central jail is right downtown, larger facilities do generate foot traffic, the many keepers do spend money...

[bailey]

FMHJ is far from dilapidated. I don't know what your definition of dilapidated is or if you are just make a judgement call from the outside, but there is nothing wrong with that building at all.

Lastly, unlike virtually any other court in the State, the Court’s core operations in its four divisions [[Criminal, Civil, Domestic Relations and Juvenile) and the Friend of the Court — both judicial and administrative — are spread out over four buildings, spanning a distance of more than two and half miles! The fact that the Court’s computer systems are not integrated and modernized only exacerbates the logistical problems faced by the Court’s administration in operating out of four buildings.
....
Also, considerable savings could be realized from the reduction in the costs of maintaining all these buildings, since three of four buildings [[Lincoln Hall of Justice, the Penobscot Building, and the Frank Murphy Hall of Justice) need significant rehabilitation given their present dilapidated condition.

-Former Wayne County Circuit Chief Judge Virgil Smith, in an article he wrote back in 2010.

I've not seen any improvements since then.