Wayne County thinking of continuing downtown jail. Gilbert writes another letter.

**brizee** · September-16-14, 01:02 PM

http://www.wxyz.com/news/local-news/...suit-dismissal

http://www.freep.com/article/2014091...t-Quicken-jail

Eh...

I'm generally in favor of moving that shit out. Let downtown turn into something productive. And maybe that area of Mound might see some development.

On the other it would be almost twice as costly and the state is being no help.

My sister is a defense attorney. She is most definitely against moving the courts out of downtown.

**Bham1982** · September-16-14, 01:33 PM

The jail should be downtown, next to the courts. In what other city is the jail sitting off in the middle of nowhere?

Contrary to Glibert's claims, there are no negative effects from a jail. It just means the area is super well-patrolled, and has lots of decent jobs.

The issue isn't the jail location, it's the outrageous malfeasance by the Wayne County crooks.

**nain rouge** · September-16-14, 01:39 PM

Yeah, but putting the jail directly downtown is a bit much. Most healthier cities generally prefer to put the jail a bit outside of the CBD. Flint and Detroit are the only two cities I've been to where the jail is practically a central component of downtown. It's not a good look. Even Pontiac/Oakland County wasn't dumb enough to put the county jail directly in the CBD.

**Hypestyles** · September-16-14, 01:45 PM

What does Mr. Gilbert want to turn the jail site into? Maybe he can convince his prominent business friends to put up money to help steer the jail to one of the alternative sites. Even if the jail is finished, won't there still be overcrowding issues?

**Bham1982** · September-16-14, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by nain rouge

Flint and Detroit are the only two cities I've been to where the jail is practically a central component of downtown.

How about NYC, LA, Chicago? All these cities have jails right in the middle of downtown.

Originally Posted by nain rouge

It's not a good look. Even Pontiac/Oakland County wasn't dumb enough to put the county jail directly in the CBD.

I would argue that Pontiac would have been MUCH better off if the various county functions, including jail, would be right downtown.

**Shai_Hulud** · September-16-14, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by Hypestyles

What does Mr. Gilbert want to turn the jail site into? Maybe he can convince his prominent business friends to put up money to help steer the jail to one of the alternative sites. Even if the jail is finished, won't there still be overcrowding issues?

The plan was to turn the three existing jails and Frank Murphy into housing and build some sort of entertainment facility on the fail jail site.

**animatedmartian** · September-16-14, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

How about NYC, LA, Chicago? All these cities have jails right in the middle of downtown.

But are they an ugly un-urban mass?

**Bham1982** · September-16-14, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by animatedmartian

But are they an ugly un-urban mass?

Well that's a separate issue.

I never said that I supported the jail plans, just that there isn't something inherently bad about having a jail in a city center.

For all the claimed benefits about a potential new hockey arena, I bet you a county jail would do more for downtown on a day-to-day basis. You would have hundreds of employees there 24/7, and they would need restaurants and services. You would also have a constant stream of visitors. An arena will just be an empty tomb 95% of the time.

But no one in charge of things downtown knows a thing about building cities.

**animatedmartian** · September-16-14, 03:01 PM

People don't exactly consider jails a gathering spot to hang out with friends [[unless those friends are in the wrong places).

**Scottathew** · September-16-14, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Contrary to Glibert's claims, there are no negative effects from a jail. It just means the area is super well-patrolled, and has lots of decent jobs.

The issue isn't the jail location, it's the outrageous malfeasance by the Wayne County crooks.

There is a negative effect, it breaks up the usable space downtown.

Gilbert has a large conflict off interest though, as he wants to connect Greektown with the rest of his empire. However, some folks would point out that if Gilbert succeeds in creating a contiguous CBD, that everyone wins, not just Gilbert.

**SpartanDawg** · September-16-14, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Well that's a separate issue.

I never said that I supported the jail plans, just that there isn't something inherently bad about having a jail in a city center.

For all the claimed benefits about a potential new hockey arena, I bet you a county jail would do more for downtown on a day-to-day basis. You would have hundreds of employees there 24/7, and they would need restaurants and services. You would also have a constant stream of visitors. An arena will just be an empty tomb 95% of the time.

But no one in charge of things downtown knows a thing about building cities.

just stop. you love to troll with exaggerated facts.

**Mackinaw** · September-16-14, 03:59 PM

I am completely against proceeding with the jail, and also think the state should assist the financing of expansion at Mound Rd. That said, I think a deal needs to be worked out to scale down Gilbert's plan a bit. I see no justification for removing Murphy Hall of Justice. Tear-down would be wasteful, and its continuing existence really shouldn't get in the way of better uses on the fail jail site, and a renovation of former Police HQ. Moreover, defendant transport from an outer jail to a downtown court should be no big deal. Hell, NYC transports people to and from an island on its fringes.

In short, stop the jail, but spare Frank Murphy. P.s., courts aren't the worst land use-- the large volume of employees, jurors, and attorneys constitutes a lot of foot traffic and restaurant demand during the day, and if they have night court, they even add a little something at night.

**nain rouge** · September-16-14, 05:03 PM

Bham, of all those cities you listed, I believe Manhattan is the only one where I'd truly say that the jail is in the thick of downtown. In LA, the jail is by the rail yards. In Chicago, it's in an industrial section of the city. In a city with as much empty space as Detroit, it doesn't make sense to build the jail that close to the commercial center. Somewhere on the near east side just seems better.

**ABetterDetroit** · September-16-14, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

The jail should be downtown, next to the courts. In what other city is the jail sitting off in the middle of nowhere?

Contrary to Glibert's claims, there are no negative effects from a jail. It just means the area is super well-patrolled, and has lots of decent jobs.

The issue isn't the jail location, it's the outrageous malfeasance by the Wayne County crooks.

The guy who vehemently argues against professional sports venues downtown in post after post infinity, now says that large brand new jail complexes are a good idea within a 9 iron shot of them. Why not just say "I want everything in Detroit to fail forever" and be done with it and save himself a lot of time?

**401don** · September-16-14, 06:29 PM

I would love for someone to explain what all of these new entertainment venues in the arena district and jail site will be. We already have theaters, 3 stadiums, 3 casinos, an opera house, etc. Exactly how many more restaurant/bars pushing the same menu of burger, wings and pulled pork are needed, most of which are empty on non-game nights. There is still far too few residents to support additional restaurants, etc. in the next few years.

**Bham1982** · September-16-14, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by Mackinaw

Moreover, defendant transport from an outer jail to a downtown court should be no big deal. Hell, NYC transports people to and from an island on its fringes.

No, they don't. NYC has jails connected to its criminal courthouses.If you're arrested in Manhattan, you are jailed in the same complex where you are arraigned and tried.

You're referring to Rikers Island, which is for longer stays in the justice system.

**Bham1982** · September-16-14, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by nain rouge

Bham, of all those cities you listed, I believe Manhattan is the only one where I'd truly say that the jail is in the thick of downtown. In LA, the jail is by the rail yards. In Chicago, it's in an industrial section of the city. In a city with as much empty space as Detroit, it doesn't make sense to build the jail that close to the commercial center. Somewhere on the near east side just seems better.

Not true. Chicago has a jail complex right in the very heart of the Loop. LA has a jail complex right downtown. Brooklyn has a jail right downtown. So does Philly. So does Boston.

I am confused why people think a jail is a negative use, and then think a sports stadium is a positive use. It's a completely misguided understanding of how city centers work.

**Spartan** · September-16-14, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Not true. Chicago has a jail complex right in the very heart of the Loop. LA has a jail complex right downtown. Brooklyn has a jail right downtown. So does Philly. So does Boston.

I am confused why people think a jail is a negative use, and then think a sports stadium is a positive use. It's a completely misguided understanding of how city centers work.

I don't mind the jail being downtown, but I do kind of wish it wasn't fronting Gratiot. I think it would also be a very bad thing if the removal of 375 were to happen. A jail should not be the first thing people see as they come into the city [[especially one with crime issues). For now, while it's not the best location, it's not the worst either. Definitely not a fan of the hundreds of millions over budget thing though.

**JBMcB** · September-16-14, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

How about NYC, LA, Chicago? All these cities have jails right in the middle of downtown.

I don't know about LA or Chicago, but the Tombs is a relatively small facility, similar to the current Wayne County jailhouse, used for temporary detention before prisoners are transferred to Rikers, which is pretty far from downtown.

**Lowell** · September-16-14, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by 401don

I would love for someone to explain what all of these new entertainment venues in the arena district and jail site will be. We already have theaters, 3 stadiums, 3 casinos, an opera house, etc. Exactly how many more restaurant/bars pushing the same menu of burger, wings and pulled pork are needed, most of which are empty on non-game nights. There is still far too few residents to support additional restaurants, etc. in the next few years.

That question was being asked 15 years ago when downtown was emerging from the tumbleweed ages of the post-Hudson's-closing ghost town.

Downtown is a metro, indeed international metro, destination. So the 'too few residents' is not that important of a factor [and though those numbers are growing]. 4-5 million visitors a year come for the professional sporting events alone. More venues will attract more visitors. Why? Because the will all be actively marketing themselves. It's a symbiotic effect.

Whether or not a bubble will grow and pop remains to be seen but for now it is up and up. Even if there is a retreat, the corner has been turned.

**jt1** · September-17-14, 08:47 AM

Another issue not being addressed is taxes: The county/court complex pay a total of $0 in taxes. Moving these to an area with exceptionally low value and putting something else in will add to the city's tax base.

**Smirnoff** · September-17-14, 08:57 AM

"You have got to be kidding".....you don't support a political project that includes bogus/fake millions of dollars for political skimming....."you have got to be kidding"?

[[Insert laughter)

**bailey** · September-17-14, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by jt1

Another issue not being addressed is taxes: The county/court complex pay a total of $0 in taxes. Moving these to an area with exceptionally low value and putting something else in will add to the city's tax base.

THIS. They are a hole into which tax money is thrown...or in the case of the fail jail, outright stolen. Get it on the tax rolls.

**motz** · September-17-14, 10:03 AM

I'm really kind of taken aback by some people looking at it and saying "Well, it's cheaper to just finish it so we should." It's like taking your car into the shop and having a band aid repair done instead of looking at the bigger picture and saying "Will I still be okay with my decision a few years down the road? Is it worth the extra money to invest in a better, but more expensive repair? What options are available to me, and after looking through each, which makes the most OVERALL sense?"

Too many people are looking at this and saying "Oh, well other cities did it and it's cheaper and by the courts so it's a good idea" instead of saying "Is this the best use of land when taking into account the future? Will this land end up contributing more to downtown as a jail, or as a not jail? Is someone willing to snatch up the remnants of this project and turn the site into something that improves the quality of life downtown?" THOSE are the questions we as a city and metro area need to ask instead of looking for the same quick band aids we have always used and very rarely pan out 10-20 years down the road.

**Mackinaw** · September-17-14, 10:13 AM

Bham, doesn't Frank Murphy HoJ have the short term jail facility? I thought fail jail was supposed to be a Rikers equivalent? I know full well about downtown Manhattan and Brooklyn's holding facilities, I walk past them almost daily and have friends who are prosecutors. You don't need to educate me on the physical logistics of arraigning. I am QUITE sure, however, that Fail Jail is not supposed to be the place we hold people who have been brought in by the police. Seriously, there aren't THAT many criminals...